Joint Task Force 2 (JTF 2) - Canadian Special Forces

[Slim]

I think from the minimal readings that I have done that the DF and the USAR may or not be as well trained or well disciplined as JTF2... We really cannot know, There are no known competitions against the three forces such as the Can-Am cup for the Armoured divisions. But the thing is, JTF2 was thought upon for anti terrorists roles (We know they do more than that) and Delta Force is an Army version of the Seals (Small 5 man squads who go in do the job then get out) Hope my opinion makes sense. My ******* ******* is a JTF2 Commando but he cant tell his family about what he does or anything. Although he did get sent home for supposedly ********a ****** ****into falling into a well or something... That he did say.
But on another point he drives a Black Suburban with dark windows!But I hope my answer did not seem un educated in any aspect.

arpo

You are posting out of your lane here.

As a rule we don't encourage people to talk about the JTF2...Not because they're such a big secret, but because everything said is either an OPSECD issue...Which we must then erase (and thankfully hasn't happened yet) or silly conjecture, which does no one any good either. Either way the original author usually winds up with a dressing down from the staff.

I would refer your attention to the guidelines in which you must agree not to post that which you have no first hand knowledge of in order to be a member in good standing on this site. You are most certainly not in a position to answer any questions about that (or probably any other) unit in the CF.

Stay in your lane. (hint: the JTF2 are NOT your lane)

Also as a courtesy to to others I would like you to fill out your profile so that we all know exactly who we're dealing with.

If I or another mod is forced to spend this much time cleaning a post of your in the future its very likely that you will be subjected to the warning system. This is not something I would like to see happen to you or anyone else so please take heed of what I've said and learn from this.

Slim
STAFF

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Arpo,
Didn't you make enough of a fool of yourself as "Ohara"
Bye, bye.....

 

[Sf2]

they do one hell of a job......and they don't brag about it....lets just leave it at that.

 

[McG]

i have an observation to make and i know this might sound stupid or childish but.... could the CAR and JTF2 be compared to the US Army Rangers and Delta Force?   both CAR and Rangers are elite and both Delta and JTF2 are both country's top elite commando unit. is this a good comparison? :-[

This comparison has been made. However, we typically do not refer to our special forces as commandos.  We would more likely apply "commando" to organizations like the US Rangers, the CAR, a Li Inf SOC Bn, etc.  These units do have a Special Operations Capability(SOC), but it fits in a grey area of the spectrum between conventional forces and "black" & "green" Special Forces.

Commando skills and special forces skills are different, and their roles and missions are quite different.   The commando is a highly trained light infantry shock troop, whereas the special forces is designed primarily for Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance missions (ISTAR).   Also the SF soldier tends to be dual hatted for counter terrrorist roles.  

Often, the Commando becomes the muscle to support SF operations.

 

[Sf2]

Rangers are considered Special Forces - 2nd tier.....whereas more elite units like SEAL and Delta are considered 3rd tier

 

[Edward Campbell]

I rush in here, where angels fear to tread, waving my ignorance like a banner ...

I'm not too concerned about what we call units or what words and phrases we use to describe tasks - but thanks, Kevin B, for periodic Rosetta Stones allowing us tired old-timers and newcomers, alike, to understand bits of what's being said.

It seems to me that we - maybe not Canada, specifically, but the big Western 'we' - need several capabilities:

"¢ Highly specialized and very secret organizations able to conduct clandestine, even illegal and murderous operations, anywhere in the world: assassinations and sabotage towards the tough, or wet end of the spectrum and bribery and subversion at another point along the spectrum.  These people may not be military, they may not even be government employees;

"¢ Highly specialized, quite secret mostly military organizations which conduct clandestine, behind the lines operations against defined enemies - this is one thing which, probably, distinguishes them from the people in the first group (who may operate against perceived threats);

"¢ Highly specialized, fairly secretive uniformed military units which conduct a range of small unit special operations;

"¢ Specially trained larger military units which conduct certain special operations, like raiding, which require some combination of different skills and higher levels of training than that provided to most good, solid, professional army units; and

"¢ A base force of good, solid, tough, superbly disciplined, well trained professional soldiers from which the other - more specialized - groups draw recruits.

I, personally, would argue that Canada, as one of the world's top ten nations* - by any fair and sensible definition of the word power, needs all five types of units but most of us, including most people in uniform and almost everyone without one, should not even know that the top-of-the-list, clandestine, civilian organization even exists.

I believe General Hillier has discussed his desire to form one of the 4th level units to support the 2nd/3rd level unit(s) we already have.

I do not think this is a hierarchy - one need not pass through levels 4 and 3 to join a level 2 unit, for example. Most people will be well suited to some types of operations; some people are at their best in a small team; others work incredibly well on their own - with the supporting team at a distance; still others work best in a larger, structured team - the conventional, tough, hard working infantry battalion or armoured regiment, etc.  One soldier is not better than the other - just differently, perhaps more intensively trained to help him exploit his skills and knowledge in certain types of operations.

----------

* the other nine would be: certainly: USA, China, India, Japan, Germany, United Kingdom and France and, probably Italy and Brazil, too.

 

[drrchief]

the JTF and other elite units of the world are not too big of a secret any more when MSN is advertising about them and other units of this caliber.  I have read stories in the papers and their is even a website listing the units of mass and their roles they play.

I have also witnessed these (and other units (US)) entering a base.  No their not spec For are they? DuH!

 

[Slim]

the JTF and other elite units of the world are not too big of a secret any more when MSN is advertising about them and other units of this caliber.   I have read stories in the papers and their is even a website listing the units of mass and their roles they play.

I have also witnessed these (and other units (US)) entering a base.   No their not spec For are they? DuH!

What are trying to say. I, for one, don't understand you.

Slim

 

[Good2Golf]

Actually Short final, you'll more frequently hear of Seals and Delta as Tier 2 (although Delta also conducts Tier 1 ops) and Rangers as Tier 3...  

Not sure if this will help but a quick look at US SOF (USSOCOM and supporting units) may help sort things out. (ref 1 and (ref 2

Organizationally, to support the USSOCOM mission, the US Army Special Ops Command (USASOC) provides five capabilities: (ref 3

• Special Forces (SF),
• Rangers,
• Special Operations Aviation (SOA),
• Psy Ops (PO) and
• Civil Affairs (CA)

Overall, US SOF Forces conduct nine missions: (ref 4

• Direct Action (DA),
• Combating Terrorism (CBT) (consisting of anti-terrorism (AT) and counter-terrorism (CT) ),
• Foreign Internal Defense (FID),
• Unconventional Warfare (UW),
• Special Reconnaissance (SR),
• Psychological Operations (PSYOP),
• Civil Affairs (CA),
• Information Operations (IO), and
• Counterproliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction (CP).

Tiering of SOF elements is generally broken down as:

Tier 1 - 'black ops', primarily CBT (both AT and CT) (note that not even many of US SF conduct this role, especially CT.  Interestingly, Tier 1 operations in the US are also conducted by domestic organizations, including the FBI (ref )  (JTF2, SAS, German GSG-9, Polish GROM, etc...  it is rumoured (though unconfirmed) that 1st SFOD(D) i.e. Delta Force has assisted US domestic forces in CT ops)

Tier 2 - 'dark green-ops', smaller concentrated forces whose actions although low level have strategic implications: SR, UW, FID (Seals, Delta, SAS/SBS,

Tier 3 - 'specialized green ops', primarily DA in support of other, "higher-tiered" units.  US Rangers are sometimes referred to as Tier 3 units (when folks acknowledge that Tier 1 is Dom and Int'l CBT, although some call them "Tier 2" when they are think of "Tier 1" (actually Tier 2) as the "dark-green ops"


So in Canada where does this leave us?  Well, using publicly released info, we know...

Tier 1:

Publicly released information clearly states that JTF 2 conducts CT operations...okay, its a Tier 1 unit.  Similar to USACOM's structure, we have a SOA capability -- the recently released DPS notes that existing SOA capability will be enlarged to include a deployable capability...okay, we have another Tier 1 capability, in this case supplied by a tactical aviation squadron (this official GoC House of Commons transcription indicates it's 427 Sqn, but I can't find a formal, CF Ref that confirms this fact)  

Tier 2:

Can't find any official, publicly available references to define what CF capabilities conduct these types of operations.  One could infer that JTF is also conducting Tier 2 ops from the recent Globe and Mail article on JTF hunting Al-queda...

Tier 3:

The DPS also states that the Land Forces, through the provision of light forces, will provide support to the Special Operations Groups, capable of integrating with JTF 2 operations (top of Page 31, download DPS here.)  So it looks like there will be a supportive capability that one could consider a Tier 3 capability.  That pre-supposes that there are other units that are Tier 2-like but no formal reference to confirm that.  

So...

Tier 1 - JTF 2 and a SOA unit
Tier 2 - unofficially JTF 2 (until perhaps the DND website is updated in the coming weeks?)
Tier 3 - in the future, some Light Forces capability capable of integrating with JTF 2


Other publicly available related references for bed-time reading include:

A very good read ->Canadian Military Journal article on Conventional Military and SOF, When the two collide (note: Col Horn lists SAS as a Tier 2 org, but it clearly also conducts Tier 1 CT ops)
USSOCOM Internet Website
Intersting reading on PsyOps and CA

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Sf2]

thanks duey.....I got the tiers backwards.....

I was mainly trying to point out that groups like Rangers and the former CAR would be one or two tiers below the "operators" as a support/security force.

As for the aviation unit, I won't go into that......

 

[KevinB]

DELTA/CAG and the SEAL DEVGRP are Tier 1

Duey you are mixing up your terminology, perhaps since units dont fit neatly into specific catagories.


Current TIER1 accepted members are UK SAS, US SFOD-D (CAG/DELTA whatver you want to call them), USN SEAL Developement Group (DEVGRP) (what ST6 became), and since 2002 JTF-2  - if you listen for some Brit and US 'shooters" they dont really consdier the Europeans to be part of the game... 

TIERII/III - Depending upon who you listend to TierII is either Tier1 support - in such the 75th Ranger Reg't qualifies as do the USN Spec War Dets that backfill DEVGRP or what you fit into for the other SOF's.  Other SOF units - USSF with their ODA's and ODB's perfom the 9 missions listed for ARSOC - with the addtion at time of other assets to complete those missions.  SEAL teams (conventional teams) can do similar missions.

Currently UW is the only capability that the CF does not possess however we are way behind the 8ball in SOA and PsyOps.

CAG and other Tier1 units are out running around wackin tango's - since they are great shooters and an elastic org than be bent to fit roles. 

GWOT has forced a lot of units into roles they where not used to - I know several 18B's who are in Iraq with their team 'broken up' supporting Inf Bn's - they 18B's doing armourer duty with the other 18 series folks fitting in where needed.

FID mission in Afghan and Iraq are being conducted by conventional force troops eg. our ETT pers.

 

[McG]

Is there a Canadian doctrinal reference that desribes how SOC forces are labelled as tier 1, 2, or 3 (I've seen informal descriptions, but there are typically disagreements)

Organizationally, to support the USSOCOM mission, the US Army Special Ops Command (USASOC) provides five capabilities:

• Special Forces (SF),
• Rangers,
• Special Operations Aviation (SOA),
• Psy Ops (PO) and
• Civil Affairs (CA)

 

By Duey's description, Special Forces encompase tier 1 and tier 2 (though they are only tier 1 by KevinB's description).  Deuy would place commando forces (or "Rangers�? if you prefer the US brand name) in tier 3, yet KevinB has them tier 2. 

Where I get lost is the other elements (SOA, Psy Ops, Civil Affairs, Special Boat Ops, etc).  Duey shows these fitting into the tiering, but I would expect that these elements would fall outside those classifications.

 

[Sf2]

That article seems to back up what Duey was saying......

The doorkickers in ski masks are generally Tier 1, with the security force outside holding a perimeter - Tier 2 - such as Rangers or whatever.  Sorta like the whole Mogidishu Delta/Ranger Task force.

The tier 2 guys, while not as specialized as the tier 1 guys, still hold a level of skill above that of a conventional light infantry bn.  I think elements like SOA (like the 160th SOAR) don't fall into the tier system, as they probably support a variety of missions which may or may not include the black CT stuff, to green ops, to logistical work.

 

[McG]

That article seems to back up what Duey was saying......

I think the article actually supports KevinB.

 

[Good2Golf]

DELTA/CAG and the SEAL DEVGRP are Tier 1

Duey you are mixing up your terminology, perhaps since units dont fit neatly into specific catagories.


Current TIER1 accepted members are UK SAS, US SFOD-D (CAG/DELTA whatver you want to call them), USN SEAL Developement Group (DEVGRP) (what ST6 became), and since 2002 JTF-2   - if you listen for some Brit and US 'shooters" they dont really consdier the Europeans to be part of the game...  

TIERII/III - Depending upon who you listend to TierII is either Tier1 support - in such the 75th Ranger Reg't qualifies as do the USN Spec War Dets that backfill DEVGRP or what you fit into for the other SOF's.   Other SOF units - USSF with their ODA's and ODB's perfom the 9 missions listed for ARSOC - with the addtion at time of other assets to complete those missions.   SEAL teams (conventional teams) can do similar missions.

Currently UW is the only capability that the CF does not possess however we are way behind the 8ball in SOA and PsyOps.

CAG and other Tier1 units are out running around wackin tango's - since they are great shooters and an elastic org than be bent to fit roles.  

GWOT has forced a lot of units into roles they where not used to - I know several 18B's who are in Iraq with their team 'broken up' supporting Inf Bn's - they 18B's doing armourer duty with the other 18 series folks fitting in where needed.

FID mission in Afghan and Iraq are being conducted by conventional force troops eg. our ETT pers.

I think the articles and refs actually support both at one time or another, and while the intent was to clear the air, it also goes to show you how an issue can be clouded...IIRC, there was a past Col of the 22 SAS who stated his almost despair at how badly those in charge of calling on the SAS actually knew what it did and how it did it...I'll try and find the quote...it almost perfectly speaks to this very issue.

anyway....Kevin, don't tell anyone else but I'm with you on the Tier thing...and I was actually torn a bit writing my earlier post, because it kind of went against what I've seen and experiences starting some 13 years ago, but I was having a heck of a time confirming anything with references.   Where "Tiering" was last at and how CF and other SOF operators have morphed the terminology...even within the last few year or so doesn't help to clarify the issue.  To be clear, not everything Col Horn says in his CMJ article is 100%...it's pretty darn close, but things like missing the 22nd as a Tier 1 force is almost inexcusable...

Well....this'll mess things up royally......but here's where I was with the Tiers around about last year...before working in the bowels of NDHQ on TD for a few months earlier this year:

Teir 1 - all prime SOF elements conducting CT and AT, whether at home or abroad -- classic "black ops"  (JTF 2, SAS, Delta, ST6, Mosad, GNG-9, GROM, etc...)

Tier 2 - all supporting SF elements, that directly, or at times indirectly support Tier 1 units -- "dark green ops", (75th Rangers. Marine Reccon, Royal Marine Commandoes, SSF-like soldiers/commandos, etc...)

Tier 3 - all unconventional warfare capabilities...most always clandestine (especially in peace time) but can conduct ops in support of other militray units in times of war/combat (this is the very "grey" shade of ops...some such work is conducted by SF-type operators, but just as often conducted by other forces of a military, and in some cases, specially trained civilians working on behalf of a government...no names, no pack drill on that one )


Where am I now...well, closer to what I posted earlier, although that was also based on what I could find open source.  I even e-mailed an acquaintence in SOCOM in Tampa, and he couldn't find any difinitive word on the official "Tiering" of SOF...so I went with what seems to be the generally (and most openly) accepted terminology.

To avoid such BBGO, I think much of the future work in SOF in Canada will not focus on "Tiers" at all, but rather on the unique mission/skill sets that contibuting units/capabilities will bring to the upcoming SOG.  If twe're lucky, there will be "relative" clear chains of command and a clear understanding of who is providing what support to whom.

FWIW, mein 2 ¢

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Good2Golf]

Tp further complicate things, my buddy in Tampa just e-mailed me back and told me not to forget the "hot Tier III docs and nurses in CA [civil affairs]"...yeah, trust a 6-shooter! (slang for AH-6 pilot)  

So, to clarify what I feel deep in my heart:

    Tier 1 - black ops, "the boys", hut-hut-hut....

    Tier 2 - dark green, "hi we're here to help!   What do you want us to do?"

    Tier 3 - unconventional forces, "really, really, hot docs and nurses"

How's that, KevinB? DOH!

Cheers,
Duey

p.s.  just to help me focus on things, I feel fortunate that I tripped upon this nice screensaver/desktop "helo pron"...

 

[GO!!!]

Not to start too much of a pi$$ing match here - but is there anyone on forum who KNOWS - beyond a shadow of a doubt - the definitions of Tier I, II, III etc?

We seem to be wallowing in speculation (myself included).

 

[KevinB]

I spoke to a buddy about this awhile ago - US SF Col Dave (Sinister) Liwanag who now runs the US Army Marksmanship Unit.

FWIW this goes back starting a few years ago.  He mentioned to me when the CAG commander [who was then Col Peter Boykin (now a Gen)] was assisting with a few officers and NCO's at WACO TX.

I dont think their is a Internationally recognized standard for Tier determinations.  However most US ARSOC guys consider Canadian Abn/LI to be TierII.  I got invited to play with (while on leave - networkign is great    ) some TierII USN SpecWar guys in Wa. - their TierII where involved in similar efforts like the 75th RR - with additional of sniper support to support snipers from the Tier1's.  The US has further muddied waters by using CIA Paramilitary guys and selected CAG guys for Grey Fox - which is basically a Tier0 unit that goes out to kill the bad guys anywhere they feel they have too.

The problems come from the fact the US SF Groups - which I hate to call conventional SF (is there such a thing) go out and do their things as fixed entities (for the most part) - and ODA will get a FID job etc.  They are rarely deployed at the Company level (though they have come up to play with us at the BN level for cold weather stuff - 1SFG(ABN) out of Ft Lewis Wa. - last time was however 1996 IIRC.

The US with 1SFOD-D ends up with the CAG forming #rd TF's with Delta guys and Rangers operating as a single entity - ever since Delta Capt Martins squabbles with Ranger Capt Steele in the BHD incident (not in the home video) they saw a need for closer working environment.  Something we are still deficient in.

The main point of the TF's is to conduct DA's (hits, raids call them what you want -hits is apparently 'assaulter speak' for DA's I'm told)
overseas - where other CAG elements are more strictly CT.  Add in that the 'vanilla' SF groups have limited DA and CT mandates and capabiltiies and you get a spaghetti of over/under lap in the SF world.

Since I know a bunch of American SOF guys from shooting etc (and baglicking  ) I have adopted their (or my interpretation of) catagories.


As far as the PsyOps, CA pers etc - while their are SOF tasked their are not a Tier in the SF world - but a follow on force/ added capabiltiy - like comms guys attached to a SF Bn - they are not tabbed or half not jump qual'd but CSS. 

Giving them a Tier designation would be very generous - like calling someone (who might resemble a wepons tech) who would put a tire iron through a MacTac muzzle break to remove it to allow a can to br put on a SF guy - please.







 

 

[gnplummer421]

Wow..it never ceases to amaze me how an organization such as JTF2 draws so much attention from everyone. We will soon find out a great deal more about them (I suspect) when they start to "hunt" in and around Khandahar. They will also maintain a presence with "Task Force Kbar" in the mountains near Pakistan. I like the fact we have this asset, and I always admired the secretive nature of the missions. It is always after the fact that we learn where they are or have been. I suspect they are active in many other parts of the world (Africa for one) The good thing about them is that they have built up a really good relationship with other nations "Special Operators" and they generally do a great job. Let us hope they stay safe and represent us Canadians well.

 

[paracowboy]

I got invited to play with (while on leave - networkign is great)...Since I know a bunch of American SOF guys from shooting etc (and baglicking)

you gotta hook a brutha up!  ;D