Israeli Defence Force

[Infanteer]

"First-hand experience" is not necessarily actual service with a particular unit.   By being in the a specific branch of the military, one has experience in working with other trades; this is why all soldiers can debate issues regarding branches that they are not a member of, but have some sort of experience in dealing with due to their duties.   As well, official information that a soldier is privy to will come down the pipeline regarding JTF-2 and other topics.   There is a body of common knowledge that is available to those who serve through a variety of sources that allow them to speak with some degree of authority.  

As well, belonging to a military gives one a common background with others in with the same duties, allowing them to communicate about each others experiences.   I have in some extent encountered members of some Special Operation Forces in my time such as the JTF-2, Navy SEALS, etc.   Although the information is second hand and must be treated as such do to the fact that it is related by someone else, it can be taken as pretty accurate do to the qualifications of the source.

As well, academic sources may have varying degrees of authenticity due to the fact that they will (try to) make objective studies of readily available official facts and information

Do your claims meet any of the above criteria?   If they don't (which I am quite sure of) then all they accomplish here is a waste of everybody's time in having to correct misinformation and explain why your posts are pure BS.

 

[Goober]

I'm going to jump in this one...

...

So according to you, we are not allowed to debate about ANYTHING unless we have first-hand experience.   :

The problem is, you simply said "Their training is F*cking CRAZY. It makes the Navy Seals look like a picnic, more or less." and posted one web page with one persons opinion in favour of Spetsnaz training. You offer nothing else to back up your claim, and this is why your words have no credibility. You can debate anything you want, but when you lack credibility, I'm sure you'll find you will also soon lack fellow debaters.

 

[1feral1]

I think Jutes would crap his pants after 10 minutes in the real world.

:

Wes

 

[jutes85]

Going further, who gives a rat's backside if the Bolsheviks can spank the Yanks or my Dad can beat up yours, I fail to see the relevance to the original post on the thread and don't see how it matters in general.

I don't give a rats ass which Special Forces is better or which one is better trained. But what I will tell you is my opinion on a certain issue, whether I've had experience or not. If you wish to dismiss it as BS, let it be, I don't need to prove to someone in a Mickey Mouse Organization that happens to call itself the Canadian Army that I was right.

THEY'VE DONE IT, YOU HAVEN'T

I can tell you that Toyota's are more reliable then Ford's without even haven driven one.

So, tell me how tough Basic Training is, I am interested to hear your educated opinion.

If you come with a bad attitude and out of shape, you will find it harder if you would've come fit and ready to help your buddy. I've been to enough Junior and WHL hockey camps and dry-land sessions to know what physical training is all about.

Do your claims meet any of the above criteria? If they don't (which I am quite sure of) then all they accomplish here is a waste of everybody's time in having to correct misinformation and explain why your posts are pure BS.

There are plenty of sources and opinions that I can find, internet or otherwise, that will state the toughness or degree of difficulty that either the Seals or Spetsnas. After reading that, I can tell you my opinion on the matter. If you just dismiss it as pure BS, as you have done so without giving me your opinion, which a forum is all about, then let it be.

I think Jutes would crap his pants after 10 minutes in the real world.

Oh brother. :

Anyways, this thread was about the IDF and its effectiveness and strength, until someone lost a head-gasket. I for one am proud to be an Israeli Citizen and what the IDF has done for the country of Israel. Without it, Israel would not exist.

 

[muskrat89]

I don't need to prove to someone in a Mickey Mouse Organization that happens to call itself the Canadian Army that I was right.

I for one am proud to be an Israeli Citizen and what the IDF has done for the country of Israel. Without it, Israel would not exist.

Then go hang out at an IDF Message Board.

Don't fret - with your new status, the Ninja Snipers will be falling all over themselves to recruit you.....

 

[Ian_M]

Anyways, this thread was about the IDF and its effectiveness and strength, until someone lost a head-gasket. I for one am proud to be an Israeli Citizen and what the IDF has done for the country of Israel. Without it, Israel would not exist.

I rarely try to get involved with posting here, mainly because I don't know enough to make claims or whatever, or have enough solid proof, however Jutes, you really should calm down. These people know how tough their basic training is or know a bit more about various special forces for the reasons that Infanteer said, also I wouldn't instult their military like you did when you said. "I don't need to prove to someone in a Mickey Mouse Organization that happens to call itself the Canadian Army I was right.", Really really really smart of you to insult more than likely half the members of the board.

Enough on that, I say you should calm down because of the bias you would have naturally in this thread, since you are a citizen of Israel and we are discussing, or attempting to discuss the military forces of your country. Some people here have biases for and against, you seem to have hijacked the thread in a way (Of course what I'm claiming here is grasping at straws since it seems that the whole discussion went totally off track when you made a claim about not having to be in the military). If I'm wrong with this, I'm sorry. Simply put, as a piece of advice Jutes, try not to insult members of the board who serve in said 'Mickey Mouse Organization' as you call it, or to refuse to take their advice.

 

[jutes85]

I rarely try to get involved with posting here, mainly because I don't know enough to make claims or whatever, or have enough solid proof, however Jutes, you really should calm down.

I'm done with this thread unless it gets back on topic.

also I wouldn't instult their military like you did when you said. "I don't need to prove to someone in a Mickey Mouse Organization that happens to call itself the Canadian Army I was right.", Really really really smart of you to insult more than likely half the members of the board.

Didn't mean it. I'm just pissed off at the current state of my application. Sorry If I offended anyone. I'm now considering on whether I should accept a job offer from the Air Force or just go to college.

Edited for spelling.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Jutes,

what you need to understand is that there has been an ongoing struggle on this forum to maintain a degree of credibility such that it is a reliable resource for visitors interested in the military, primarily the Canadian Military. And it's a struggle that has been won but requires aggressive maintenance. Healthy, and even spirited, debate is encouraged. When people have credentials or experience to back up their statements, we like to see them presented as well. When they are simply expressing an opinions, they should declare that openly.

The regulars on the boards have a wide variety of military experience, and they are very quick to identify holes in the logic or content of posts. Frankly, few things hi-jack a board thread faster than an eager teenager exercising his on-line 'voice' and then getting defensive when his statements are challenged and supporting data is requested.

This board is a popular source for young Canadians seeking information or guidance at the outset of, or while considering a, military career. We accept that that gives us a role of responsibility and leadership not unlike the primary duties in the Canadian Forces that we do, or have, enjoyed.

Similarly, we know that others, both in our own and other militaries, occasionally visit and read the threads. And the posts do get indexed to the major search engines and show up there as well.

Don't fault the board members for protecting their intellectual and professional turf. A few poorly behaved correspondents can (and have in the past) created conditions such that sometimes good members leave, temporarily or permanently. In truth, many of the regular posters would rather chastise an innocently ignorant newbie in the hopes that poor initial behaviour can be corrected than to tolerate poor forum etiquette at the cost of the entire forum's atmosphere.

Please sit back, relax, and reconsider your approach.

 

[Jungle]

If you wish to dismiss it as BS, let it be, I don't need to prove to someone in a Mickey Mouse Organization that happens to call itself the Canadian Army that I was right.

LOL... is that the reason you can't get a job offer with the CF ??? Strangely, there are approx 100 persons joining the CF every week, yet you can't get a job... maybe you're too serious for us clowns... :
Enjoy this period of your life where you know everything... it doesn't last long !!!

 

[Shec]

Hi Guys,

I'm going to jump in here because I have experience with both the CF and the IDF and quite frankly I find this whole argument childish.  

Its true that the Canadian Army is better disciplined than the IDF which has no patience for spit and polish.    I"ve seen things that would make my old RSM cardiac - boots that have never been polished, NCO stripes held on with safety pins, and Coca-Cola baseball caps.    It is also arguably true that the Canadian Army is better trained.     That is because they have the luxury of time to train and develop professionals with a wider breadth of skill sets. By the way, that hardly makes the Canadian Army a "mickey mouse organization".    Remember the Canadian Army is an all-volunteer predominantly professional force.

The IDF on the other hand reflects the fact that the army is the people and the people are the army.   They are citizen soldiers in the truest sense of the word.   In fact I will be so bold as to venture that the ratio of draftees/reservists to professionals in the IDF is the inversely proportional to the Canadian Army. They are fighting for their homes in a land where there is no defence in depth and no room to manuever.   That is the motivatator that makes them   leaner, meaner, and audacious.   Furthermore,   the time that Canucks have to train is something that the IDF does not have which is why the IDF has so many specialized units.

So in summary you are comparing a all-volunteer largely professional force with a force composed largely of non-professional national servicemen and women.   So we are talking apples vs. oranages (no pun intended given crops in both countries).  And that essential difference invalidates any silly little "my cojones are bigger than yours" comparisions.   Which is why, and with all due respect to my old comrade Lance Wiebe, the officer he referenced who called the IDF a "second rate army" is just as ignorant as the member who called the Canadian Army a "mickey mouse organization".  

 

[jutes85]

Hi Guys,

I'm going to jump in here because I have first hand experience with both the CF and the IDF and quite frankly I find the whole argument childish.  

Its true that the Canadian Army is better disciplined than the IDF which has no patience for spit and polish.    I"ve seen things that would make my old RSM cardiac - boots that have never been polished, NCO stripes held on with safety pins, and Coca-Cola baseball caps.    It is also arguably true that the Canadian Army is better trained.     However that is because they have the luxury of time to train and develop professionals with a wider breadth of skill sets. By the way, that hardly makes the Canadian Army a "mickey mouse organization".    Furthermore, the Canadian Army is an all-volunteer force.

The IDF on the other hand reflects the fact that the army is the people and the people are the army.   They are citizen soldiers in the truest sense of the word.   They are fighting for their homes in a land where there is no defence in depth and no room to manuever.   That is a great motivatator that makes them   leaner, meaner, and audacious.   Furthermore,   the time that Canucks have to train is something that the IDF does not have which is why the IDF has so many specialized units.

So in summary you are comparing a all-volunteer largely professional force with a force composed largely of non-professional national servicemen and women.   And that essential difference invalidates any silly little "my cojones are bigger than yours" comparisions.   Which is why, and with all due respect to my old comrade Lance Wiebe, the officer he referenced who called the IDF a "second rate army" is just as ignorant as the member who called the Canadian Army a "mickey mouse organization".  

The original purpose of this thread was not to compare the Canadian Armed Forces or anyother Military to that of the IDF. They are totaly the opposite to each other, one peacekeeps when deployed, the other is in constant allert and readiness to fight for the safety and security of Israel. Perhaps if the US was kicking on our door everyday, our Military would be in a different state that it is today.

Its true that the Canadian Army is better disciplined than the IDF which has no patience for spit and polish.

IMO, I don't see why the CAF are so stringent with the spit and polish aspect of training. But then again, when you don't participate in any active wars or conflicts, there isn't much to do.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

IMO, I don't see why the CAF are so stringent with the spit and polish aspect of training. But then again, when you don't participate in any active wars or conflicts, there isn't much to do.

You're really trying to push the buttons aren't you assclown.

 

[D-n-A]

Jutes, you say Canada doesn't go on combat deployments? Um.. what about Afghanistan, the first ROTO with 3PPCLI was a combat deployment, and Canadians fought there.

 

[muskrat89]

Thanks Shec - an interesting post...

Jutes - keep it up.  :

You mentioned frustration "at the system" as the reason for you lipping off about the Canadian Military. That just kinda reiterates what we've been saying - the disconnect bewteen your "theories" and the practical application of real life. Self-control and self-discipline are cornerstones of success in the Military. You indicate lots of "knowledge" reagrding the various levels of training in different Militaries, yet, you supposedly blow up here (relatively speaking) based on frustration. How are you going to handle military courses where instructors are trying to push your buttons...???

I think you just need to chill, for a bit..

 

[Shec]

Jutes,

Get some time in.

 

[Infanteer]

Time to lock this one up as well, what do you guys think....

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Jutes,

Get some time in.

Agreed...although my bet is he won't make it through his first BE.