Israel to protect its soldiers from war crimes charges

[geo]

Let's put it in context.... If Hamas had the power and ability to project & cause 1000 or 5000 more injuries / deaths to israeli citzens.... they would've - in a heartbeat.

 

[tomahawk6]

No such thing as proportionality. You attack my country and its all out war. That has been the principle throughout time.

 

[old medic]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-court-palestinians5-2009feb05,0,6059347.story


International Criminal Court to consider Gaza investigation
The Palestinian Authority and others want the court to investigate alleged war crimes committed during the recent battle with Israel.
By Sebastian Rotella
3:57 PM PST, February 4, 2009

Reporting from Madrid -- In a move that could inject a new international actor into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the International Criminal Court will examine requests to investigate alleged war crimes during the recent combat in the Gaza Strip, its chief prosecutor said Wednesday.

Luis Moreno Ocampo, chief prosecutor of the Netherlands-based court, said he had decided to consider an investigation after the Palestinian Authority accepted the jurisdiction of the court last week.

Now his prosecutors must analyze three questions, he said: whether the Palestinian Authority has legal power to recognize the court's authority; whether war crimes occurred; and whether the governments involved conduct genuine investigations.

"Each legal area is complicated," Moreno said in a telephone interview from The Hague. "We move when we are completely sure. Our contribution is impartiality. We will consider this carefully and thoroughly."

The court has received 210 requests from organizations and individuals regarding the recent fighting between Israel and the Hamas militant group. Many claims accuse Israel of offenses such as violence against civilians and illegal use of phosphorus shells. But groups such as Human Rights Watch have also called for an investigation of Hamas' rocket attacks on Israeli towns and its alleged use of its own civilians as human shields.

The prosecutor's review could take years and faces legal and political obstacles. The court can investigate only in nations that accept its mandate, and most international bodies do not consider the Palestinian Authority to be a sovereign state.

"The ICC charter is adhered to by sovereign states, and the Palestinian Authority has not yet been recognized as one, so it cannot be a member," said Yigal Palmor, a spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry. "It doesn't mean anything except that it's a good propaganda stunt."

Nonetheless, the court's review could have symbolic and concrete repercussions. Israel could try to head off the investigation with its own comprehensive probe, said Yuval Shany, a professor of international law at Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

"It will create greater pressures inside Israel to conduct a serious investigation," Shany said. "The fact that it has not been dismissed offhand by the court could prove to be significant."

The 7-year-old court has been ratified by 108 countries. Moreno, who was appointed in 2003, prosecuted former dictators in his native Argentina in the 1980s and later taught at Harvard University. He has led ICC investigations of atrocities in Sudan's Darfur region and other trouble spots. Last week he launched the court's first trial; the defendant is a Congolese strongman charged with forced recruitment of child soldiers.

Like Israel, the United States has not accepted the court's authority, wary of exposing American troops and leaders to prosecution. After eight years in which Washington was regarded as hostile to the idea of the court, human rights advocates think the Obama administration will be more supportive.

In reviewing the Gaza issue, the court will have to address the explosive question of whether the Palestinian territories constitute the equivalent of a state, Shany said. Although on the surface it seems evident that the territories do not meet the criteria, he said, the ICC could favor a less rigid legal interpretation oriented toward protecting victims of crimes.

"We have the fundamentals of a state and we have met all conditions required from a state," Ali Khashan, the Palestinian Authority's justice minister, said in an interview Wednesday in the West Bank city of Ramallah. "We have been demanding these rights for a long time, but no one has paid attention to us. Now we have decided to go to the ICC with this matter as a first step toward getting our rights through legal means."

Khashan faxed a letter to the court Jan. 21 declaring that his government recognized the court's jurisdiction for the purpose of investigating and prosecuting "acts committed in the territory of Palestine since 1 July 2002."

But Israeli officials point out pitfalls. Hamas, which is labeled a terrorist group by Israel and many Western governments, took control of Gaza in 2007 with the violent ouster of the Palestinian Authority, which retains power in the West Bank. Hamas rule would impede an objective investigation and casts doubt on the relevance of the Palestinian Authority's recognition of the international court, Israeli officials said.

"Hamas has appropriated Gaza and doesn't recognize PA authority," an Israeli government official said, requesting anonymity because of the sensitivity of the topic. "If the residents of Gaza do not recognize the jurisdiction of the PA, how can the PA bring a case of alleged war crimes committed in Gaza jurisdiction?"

West Bank Palestinians have won cases in the Israeli justice system, such as disputes with the Israeli Defense Ministry over the route of a barrier being built to separate Israel and Palestinian territory, Israeli officials said. The Palestinian justice minister said he had not ruled out returning to Israeli courts, but questioned their objectivity.

"Since the Israeli government has given protection to its officers and soldiers against legal prosecution, we do not expect the courts, including the high court, to play an honest and objective role," Khashan said.

 

[Infanteer]

You attack my country and its all out war. That has been the principle throughout time.

I don't think that's what Jefferson had in mind when he dispatched the Navy to "the shores of Tripoli".

 

[Shec]

What’s inside? A guide to what Hamas puts in those little rockets and bombs

[Chemical & Biological Warfare: Introduction]

Hamas first added pesticides and poisonous chemicals to indigenously produced bombs in 1997. Certain Palestinian terrorist elements have also attempted to contaminate Israeli water sources and agricultural exports with chemical and biological agents.

In 1999, Israeli security forces apprehended a Hamas terrorist ring active in the recruitment of Palestinian biology and chemistry students as part of an attempt to form a non-conventional weapons effort against Israel.

During Operation Defensive Shield (April 2002), the IDF seized 10 tubes of bromine in the Ramallah Mukatah compound. Bromine, a brownish-red liquid, is a corrosive element that dissolves human tissue — even at a concentration of one per million.

In July 2004, Shin Bet Chief Avi Dichter noted that non-conventional weapons may have been smuggled into the PA. In December 2004, the Israeli defense establishment expressed concern over the possibility of a chemical or biological attack by various Palestinian terrorist groups.

Indeed, various indictments against Palestinian terrorists have revealed that both Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) attempted to use cyanide for terrorist attacks against Israelis on several occasions. Abbas Sayyid, who headed the Hamas military wing in Tulkarem, intended to use cyanide in an attack against the Sharon shopping mall (May 2001) and Park Hotel (March 2002) in Netanya. PIJ terrorist Anas Hatnawi (Jenin), planned to use cyanide in suicide attacks against Israelis.

In March 2007, the IDF Homefront Command held an extensive, nationwide civil defense drill that included a simulated chemical mega-terrorist attack against a Ramat Gan school. Special Forces, utilizing sophisticated decontamination equipment, rushed to the scene and carried out mass casualty emergency evacuation to hospitals. The drill was performed under realistic combat conditions. 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Use of Chemical & Biological Agents in Suicide Bombings]

In December 2001, the Israeli Health Ministry revealed that nails and bolts found in a bomb detonated by a Palestinian suicide bomber had been dipped in rat poison. According to Hamas, planting poisonous chemicals in explosive devices have terrorized Israelis more effectively than conventional bombings. In January 2002, a senior Israeli security source warned that Hamas may be attempting to obtain sarin and other nerve gases. 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Planned Chemical Warhead for Qassam Missile]

In February 2002, Middle East Newsline reported that Palestinian terrorist elements were developing a chemical warhead for the Qassam-class missile. In December 2005, media reports indicated that Palestinian terrorists were preparing Qassam missiles with chemical warheads.

In June 2006, Fatah announced the development of chemical and biological weapons and claimed to possess 20 biological warheads for Qassam rockets.

“With the help of Allah, we are pleased to say that we succeeded in developing over 20 different types of biological and chemical weapons, this after a three-year effort…We say to (Prime Minister Ehud) Olmert and (Defense Minister Amir) Peretz: Your threats of invasion do not frighten us. We will surprise you with new weapons you have not faced until now. As soon as an IDF soldier sets foot on Gazan land, we will respond with a new weapon.”

The organization noted it would not hesitate to use the substances, adding they could be placed on rockets similar to those fired at Israeli communities surrounding Gaza.

“If Israel invades Gaza, we will declare open warfare without limits…”

Fatah also claimed to have fired one rocket with a checmical warhead at southern Israel. However, the IDF did not detect the launch of such a rocket. 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ramla Biological Simulation Center]

The IDF Ramla Biological Simulation Center, slated to begin operations in April 2008, will simulate a number of biological warfare scenarios, including an attack on a mall, movie theater and parking garage.

The facility, funded by the Ministry of Defense, will be utilized by the Homefront Command for training purposes.

Chief of the Nuclear Biological and Chemical Branch of the IDF Medical Corps, Colonel Tzvika Doshnitzky: “Biological warfare is the most dangerous of weaponry as the fallout does not occur immediately, rather the symptoms only appear later…” 4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[NATO Funding to Protect Israeli Water Supply]

In April 2007, Globes reported that NATO was slated to fund an interdisciplinary research project by the Technion (Israel Institute of Technology) on protecting water supplies against biological and chemical terrorism.

The research will integrate mathematical models for the positioning of monitoring stations and technological innovations for identifying and neutralizing chemical and biological contaminants. The project, due to be completed by the end of 2008, has a budget of €300,000.

Prof. Israel Schechter of the Faculty of Chemistry: “After Al Qaeda documents and plans were discovered in Afghanistan, the FBI warned that the organization was planning to attack water sources. It turns out that water dispersal systems in the US, Israel, and other developed countries in the world are completely exposed. They are outdoors, with no guards. The systems are large and numerous, and guards cannot be placed at all of them. An expert panel examined the issue and gave its recommendations to Congress, which allocated $608 million to solve the problem…

“A huge quantity of poison is needed to poison the water supply…I tried to think like a terrorist and discovered a way to place a handful of a certain poison into water sources that could kill large numbers of people, despite the dilution factor. That’s why I started to develop a device that can detect chemical poisons in water and neutralize them.”

Prof. Yechezkel Kashi of the Faculty of Biotechnology Food Engineering: “We’ve basically established an ID card for specific bacteria. We’re now developing a scanner that will be able to quickly and accurately detect specific bacteria. We’re collaborating with Prof. David Walt of Tufts University on this project.” 5
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[References]

1.    “Israel Fears Chemical Attack by Hamas Suicide Bombers,” The Times of London, January 2, 2002; “Dr. Danny Shoham - BESA Center Expert on Chemical and Biological Weapons Takes Center Stage,” BESA Bulletin, no. 14, May 2002; “Shin Bet Chief Concerned Over Non-Conventional Warfare Reaching the PA,” IsraelNationalNews,” July 21, 2004; Eitan Rabin, “Classified Report Obtained by NRG Maariv Reveals Defense Officials Also Concerned Palestinian Terror Groups Might Try to Perpetrate WMD Attacks,” NRG Ma’ariv (English edition), December 8, 2004; IDF Finds 12 Liters of Poisonous Bromine Hidden in Arafat’s Ramallah Compound,” IMRA, April 19, 2002; Gal Luft, “From Clandestine Army to Guardians of Terror: The Palestinian Security Forces and the Second Intifada,” Nativ (Online), Vol. 4, June 2004; David Eshel, “Chlorine Gas Attacks: Paradigm in Unconventional Terror,” Defense Update, March 22, 2007.

2.    “Israel fears Chemical Attack by Hamas Suicide Bombers,” The Times of London, January 2, 2002; “Hamas Says [it put] Chemicals in Bombs,” Associated Press, December 12, 2001.

3.    “Hamas Claims Kassam will be Tipped with CW,” MENL, Feb. 28, 2002; DebkaFile, December 8, 2005; Roee Nahmias, “Al-Aqsa Brigades: Chemical Warfare if Israel Invades Gaza,” YnetNews, June 25, 2006; “Gaza Militants Say Fired Chemical-Tipped Warhead,” Reuters, June 29, 2006..

4.    Elad Shalev, “Biological Simulation Center to Be Established in Ramla,” IDF Spokesperson’s Office, February 19, 2007.

5.    Amnon Barzilai, “NATO to Finance Technion Water Terrorism Research,” Globes, April 19, 2007.

And here is a report on delivery system development and deployment:

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/rocket_threat_e.pdf

Now, what's all this B$ about disproportionate force and war crimes allegedly perpetrated against a regime that shields itself behind civilians, steals humanitarian relief supplies meant for those same civilians, and considers CBW against non-military targets?

 

[abo]

Update.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm

Israel troops admit Gaza abuses

An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.

One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.

Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.

The army has defended its conduct during the Gaza offensive but said it would investigate the testimonies.

The Israeli army has said it will investigate the soldiers' accounts.

The testimonies were published by the military academy at Oranim College. Graduates of the academy, who had served in Gaza, were speaking to new recruits at a seminar.

“ The climate in general [was that] lives of Palestinians are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers ”
Soldier testimony

"[The testimonies] conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians," academy director Dany Zamir told public radio.

Heavy civilian casualties during the three-week operation which ended in the blockaded coastal strip on 18 January provoked an international outcry.

Correspondents say the testimonies undermine Israel's claims that troops took care to protect non-combatants and accusations that Hamas militants were responsible for putting civilians into harm's way.

'Less important'

The Palestinian woman and two of her children were allegedly shot after they misunderstood instructions about which way to walk having been ordered out of their home by troops.

"The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers," an infantry squad leader is quoted saying.

In another cited case, a commander ordered troops to kill an elderly woman walking on a road, even though she was easily identifiable and clearly not a threat.

Testimonies, which were given by combat pilots and infantry soldiers, also included allegations of unnecessary destruction of Palestinian property.

"We would throw everything out of the windows to make room and order. Everything... Refrigerators, plates, furniture. The order was to throw all of the house's contents outside," a soldier said.

One non-commissioned officer related at the seminar that an old woman crossing a main road was shot by soldiers.

"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story… I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder," he said.

The transcript of the session for the college's Yitzhak Rabin pre-military course, which was held last month, appeared in a newsletter published by the academy.

Israeli human rights groups have criticised the military for failing to properly investigate violations of the laws of war in Gaza despite plenty of evidence of possible war crimes.

'Moral army'

The soldiers' testimonies also reportedly told of an unusually high intervention by military and non-military rabbis, who circulated pamphlets describing the war in religious terminology.

"All the articles had one clear message," one soldier said. "We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land."

"Many soldiers' feelings were that this was a war of religion," he added.

Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.

"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.

Medical authorities say more than 1,300 Palestinians were killed during Israel's 22-day operation, including some 440 children, 110 women, and dozens of elderly people.

The stated aim was to curb rocket and mortar fire by militants from Gaza. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians were killed.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm

Published: 2009/03/19 13:34:26 GMT

© BBC MMIX

 

[a_majoor]

Amazing what happens when a real investigation is done rather than rumor mongering:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_print=1&x_context=2&x_outlet=35&x_article=1647

Charges of IDF "Wanton Killing" Crumble

The brigade commander of the unit linked to alleged “wanton killings” in Gaza launched his own investigation after hearing of the charges, speaking with actual eyewitnesses, all of whom said that the alleged killings did not took place. The original charges, based only on hearsay and rumors, have therefore been refuted and should be retracted.

The brigade commander’s findings were reported in the Israeli newspaper Maariv, in a story titled IDF Investigation Refutes the Testimonies About Gaza Killings. According to the story (translation by CAMERA):

    Two central incidents that came up in the testimony, which Danny Zamir, the head of the Rabin pre-military academy presented to Chief of Staff Gaby Ashkenazi, focus on one infantry brigade. The brigade’s commander today will present to Brigadier General Eyal Eisenberg, commander of the Gaza division, the findings of his personal investigation about the matter which he undertook in the last few days, and after approval, he will present his findings to the head of the Southern Command, Major General Yoav Gallant.

    Regarding the incident in which it was claimed that a sniper fired at a Palestinian woman and her two daughters, the brigade commander’s investigation cites the sniper: “I saw the woman and her daughters and I shot warning shots. The section commander came up to the roof and shouted at me, ?Why did you shoot at them.’ I explained that I did not shoot at them, but I fired warning shots.”

    Officers from the brigade surmise that fighters that stayed in the bottom floor of the Palestinian house thought that he hit them, and from here the rumor that a sniper killed a mother and her two daughters spread.

The other alleged incident, the killing by a sniper of an elderly woman, also seems not to have taken place:

    Regarding the second incident, in which it was claimed that soldiers went up to the roof to entertain themselves with firing and killed an elderly Palestinian woman, the brigade commander investigation found that there was no such incident.

It seems the both Ha’aretz and the New York Times, which gave these stories great play despite a clear lack of evidence, should be composing forthright corrections – preferably to be run on the front page.

CAMERA’s first report on this subject, which includes full details of the charges and links to the initial reports in Ha’aretz and the New York Times, follows below.

March 22, 2009

Questions Raised about Charges of “Wanton Killing” in Gaza

Less than a month after Israel concluded operations in Gaza, some of the soldiers who served there met at the pre-military academy they had attended to discuss their experiences in the fighting. As the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz has reported, the head of the academy, Danny Zamir, arranged the gathering, and at the outset he condemned the Israeli operation for setting “new limits for the army’s ethical code and that of the State of Israel” and for sowing “massive destruction among civilians.”

Later in the discussion Zamir went further, stating:

    I think it would be important for parents to sit here and hear this discussion. I think it would be an instructive discussion, and also very dismaying and depressing. You are describing an army with very low value norms, that's the truth.

Since, as Ha’aretz put it, Zamir “does not hide his political opinions,” it seems likely that his former students at the left-leaning Kibbutz-affiliated school knew what Zamir wanted to hear at the meeting, and that only a self-selected group attended. In any event, some of the attendees certainly did not disappoint Zamir, who had been imprisoned by the IDF in 1990 for refusing to serve in the West Bank. They recounted tales of “murder in cold blood,” including seemingly eyewitness accounts of a sniper shooting a woman and two of her children merely because they made a wrong turn, and another sniper killing an old woman.

Zamir wrote an article about the discussion for the academy’s newsletter, which he then provided to the Israeli newspapers Ha’aretz and Maariv, triggering in Ha’aretz alone multiple stories extremely critical of the Israeli army’s alleged conduct (here, here, here, here and here), as well as numerous stories in the foreign press, such as the New York Times, which put its initial report on page one above the fold (here and here). Both the Ha’aretz and the New York Times reports ignored detailed testimony by soldiers of exemplary conduct by the IDF, such as soldiers leaving an envelope of cash for the Palestinian homeowner whose house they had occupied.

While the Israeli government has promised a full and even a criminal investigation, serious doubts have already been raised about some of the charges.

For example, on Israel’s Channel 2, defense correspondent Roni Daniel reported that the soldier who supposedly witnessed the sniper shoot a mother and two of her children has now admitted to his brigade commander that he didn’t see any such thing:

    I didn’t see it myself. There were stories like this. I wasn’t in that house and everything I said was only on the basis of rumors. At the gathering it was a friendly talk, and that's how I related to it.

Daniel raised similar questions about the killing of the old woman by a sniper, and concluded that “The credibility of these two stories is very doubtful.”

Here is Daniel’s report in Hebrew (English subtitles by CAMERA):

In the wake of Daniel’s broadcast, even Ha’aretz reported that the soldier recounting the tale of a mother and children being killed had been called in by his brigade commander, at which time he admitted he was relying solely on “rumors” within his unit:

    By the afternoon, the army could report that the investigation into the testimony regarding the shooting of a mother and two children had reached preliminary conclusions. Givati brigade commander Ilan Malkha summoned the squad leader who recounted the story, who admitted he had relied solely on rumors in the company.

Counter Evidence Ignored

Ha’aretz, the New York Times, and most other outlets covering this controversy have ignored detailed statements by other soldiers of the strict rules of engagement that they followed, and of their acts of kindness towards Palestinians. (The Times devoted all of one sentence to a soldier who said that Israeli soldiers put their own lives at risk to avoid harming Palestinians. And the lone sentence was buried towards the end of the article.)

The Israeli newspaper Yediot recounted some of these in reaction to the Ha’aretz stories:

    "I don’t believe there were soldiers who were looking to kill (Palestinians) for no reason," said 21-year-old Givati Brigade soldier Assaf Danziger, who was lightly injured three days before the conclusion of Operation Cast Lead.

    "What happened there was not enjoyable to anyone; we wanted it to end as soon as possible and tried to avoid contact with innocent civilians," he said.

    According to Danziger, soldiers were given specific orders to open fire only at armed terrorists or people who posed a threat. "There were no incidents of vandalism at any of the buildings we occupied. We did only what was justified and acted out of necessity. No one shot at civilians. People walked by us freely," he recounted.

In the same article Yediot also quoted other soldiers:

    A Paratroopers Brigade soldier who also participated in the war called the claims "nonsense". Speaking on condition of anonymity, he said "It is true that in war morality can be interpreted in many different ways, and there are always a few idiots who act inappropriately, but most of the soldiers represented Israel honorably and with a high degree of morality.

    "For instance, on three separate occasions my company commander checked soldiers' bags for stolen goods. Those who stole the smallest things, like candy, were severely punished," he said.

    "We were forbidden from sleeping in Palestinians' beds even when we had no alternate accommodations, and we didn’t touch any of their food even after we hadn't had enough to eat for two days."

    "During one incident, we were informed that a female suicide bomber was heading in our direction, but even when women approached us and crossed a certain point we made do with firing in the air, or near the women," the soldier recalled. "Even when we came across deserted stores, we didn’t even think of taking anything. One soldier took a can of food, but he immediately returned it after everyone yelled at him."

    Major (res.) Idan Zuaretz of Givati said "in every war there is a small percentage of problematic soldiers, but we must look at it from a broad perspective and not focus on isolated incidents."

    Zuaretz, a company commander, also questioned the integrity of the soldiers who made the controversial claims, saying "if this was such a burning issue for them, why have they remained silent until now? On an ethical and moral level, they were obligated to stop what they claimed had occurred and not wait two months to be heard at some esoteric debate."

    According to the officer, the IDF went to great lengths and employed the most advanced technology to avoid harming civilian population.

    "I've seen a few things in my time, but even I was blown away by the level of professionalism displayed by the army," Zuaretz said. "I personally gave my soldiers an order on the day we withdrew from Gaza to leave all of our goodies in the last house we occupied. Some reservists even left an envelope full of money to one Palestinian family."

Another soldier who had fought in Gaza, Yishai Goldflam, circulated an open letter to the Palestinian family whose home his unit had temporarily occupied during the fighting. His letter, titled “I am the soldier who slept in your home,” was published in Maariv, and then translated and published in Canada’s National Post. Goldflam too spoke of the care he and his fellow soldiers had taken to minimize damage to the home:

    I spent many days in your home. You and your family's presence was felt in every corner. I saw your family portraits on the wall, and I thought of my family. I saw your wife's perfume bottles on the bureau, and I thought of my wife. I saw your children's toys and their English-language schoolbooks. I saw your personal computer and how you set up the modem and wireless phone next to the screen, just as I do.

    I wanted you to know that despite the immense disorder you found in your house that was created during a search for explosives and tunnels (which were indeed found in other homes), we did our best to treat your possessions with respect. When I moved the computer table, I disconnected the cables and laid them down neatly on the floor, as I would do with my own computer. I even covered the computer from dust with a piece of cloth.

    I know that the devastation, the bullet holes in your walls and the destruction of those homes near you place my descriptions in a ridiculous light. Still, I need you to understand me -- us -- and hope that you will channel your anger and criticism to the right places. I decided to write you this letter specifically because I stayed in your home...

It’s unfortunate that New York Times and Haaretz readers are fed constant doses of the anti-Israel story-of-the-day, while the papers ignore the stories of typical Israeli soldiers like Yishai Goldflam. Times editors (and their counterparts at Haaretz) should explain why Danny Zamir is fit to print, and Yishai Goldflam is not fit to print.

Through such tendentious choices is news made rather than reported.

 

[geo]

Hmmm.... puts some question marks to some/all those allegations of IDF soldiers being total and absolute monsters.

From a personal perspective, war will bring out the best AND worst in man (generalization).

 

[2 Cdo]

No such thing as proportionality. You attack my country and its all out war. That has been the principle throughout time.

(Sarcasm on)
Apparently we must have proportionality when fighting our enemies! From now on if we kill 10 Taliban and suffer no casualties ourselves we will remove 10 privates from our ORBAT and execute them just to keep things proportional!
(Sarcasm now off)

 

[time expired]

This discusion concerning the "moral highground"by people who
are as far from the struggle as its possible to get and have never
fought for anything in their lives and have no intention of ever
doing so,is getting on my nerves.The IDF knows from history that
the moral highground is only of any use to you if you also occupy
the physical highground.As an example think of the 6 million Jews
who allowed themselves to be herded into the Nazi death camps
in their mistaken belief in humanity and the rule of law.Insofar as
they offered very little violent resistance one could accurately
describe them as having the moral highground,a fat lot of good it
did them.This lesson is probably has been absorbed well by the
IDF and Jewish people as a whole,and it is probably a lesson that
we in the West will more than likely have to learn in the near future.
  Using the same tactics as the enemy does not make us the same as
them,as long as we WIN and I am sorry my left leaning,hand wringing
friends that is and always will be the bottom line.
                                  Regards

 

[IntlBr]

time expired:

Interesting perspective - enjoyed that post.  I personally have long found the case presented by Israel's internal/foreign policy to be one of the great paradoxes of our times...

 

[abo]

This discusion concerning the "moral highground"by people who
are as far from the struggle as its possible to get and have never
fought for anything in their lives and have no intention of ever
doing so,is getting on my nerves.The IDF knows from history that
the moral highground is only of any use to you if you also occupy
the physical highground.As an example think of the 6 million Jews
who allowed themselves to be herded into the Nazi death camps
in their mistaken belief in humanity and the rule of law.Insofar as
they offered very little violent resistance one could accurately
describe them as having the moral highground,a fat lot of good it
did them.This lesson is probably has been absorbed well by the
IDF and Jewish people as a whole,and it is probably a lesson that
we in the West will more than likely have to learn in the near future.
  Using the same tactics as the enemy does not make us the same as
them,as long as we WIN and I am sorry my left leaning,hand wringing
friends that is and always will be the bottom line.
                                  Regards

Hmm?
Moral highground only matters when you have actual highground. (this is your argument right?)
Sooo being right or wrong is only relevant if you have the strength to "WIN".
So. If you are weak and cannot "WIN" your moral highground is of no consequence.
Your argument is just Might Makes Right. Last I checked there was a certain German political party that adhered to this philosophy between 1930 and 1945.

Quick question for you.
How exactly does using the same tactics as your enemy not make you the same as your enemy?

 

[a_majoor]

Sorry, that is not what Time Expired was saying at all.

Having the "moral high ground" is desirable, but the only way you can use the moral high ground to effect change is to also have the physical high ground: i.e. be in a position and have the will to take action to maintian your position. Handwringing about your morally superior position does little when thugs come to take your person and property; even here in Canada HRC "Star Chambers" have used their quasi leagal powers to punish and destroy those who they disagree with until Ezra Levant (using YouTube and the Internet) and Mark Steyn (using his skills as a writer and global reach as a syndicated columnist) counterattacked and al least rocked the HRC thugs back on their heels.

Since Hamas strikes using rockets, suicide bombers and gunmen, the IDF needs to respond in an appropriate manner. When it becomes an internet struggle, then internet tools are the ones to use. The key is always to take hold of the proprer tools and use them.

Freedom is a self help project.

 

[abo]

Ah I see what you mean. Thanks for clearing that up Thucydides.

 

[Yrys]

Israeli Military Tries Two Soldiers for Conduct During Gaza War

Israeli newspaper Yediot Ahronoth’s Web site Ynet News reports,
Israel’s military put two of its own soldiers on trial on Wednesday
for allegedly forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open bags they
suspected might contain explosives during a raid in Gaza last year.

When the soldiers were charged earlier this month, my colleague
Isabel Kershner reported that the military said in a statement that,
“soldiers were strictly forbidden from making use of civilians for or
during operational activity and specifically when it endangered the
lives of the civilians.” If they are convicted of all charges, the soldiers
could face up to three years in jail.

Ynet News explains that the Israeli military started its investigation
of the two soldiers, who are both reservists, after it was contacted by
the United Nations and the Israeli branch of Defense for Children
International, a nongovernmental organization. The Israeli charity took
testimony from the boy, identified as Majd R., last June.

Earlier this month, Ynet News published most of the child’s testimony
and explained that, according to the indictment, the incident happened
on Jan. 15, 2009, as members of the Israel Defense Forces swept into
a residential neighborhood in Gaza City, during the Israeli offensive known
as Operation Cast Lead. Ynet News reported:

The soldiers separated the men from the women and children and ordered
the men to strip before leading them one by one outside the building. A soldier
approached Majd, who was hiding behind his mother in fear — and motioned
for him to step forward.

Here is what the boy said happened next:

I thought they would kill me. I became very scared and wet my pants. I could
not shout or say anything because I was too afraid… He pushed me towards the
small corridor in front of the bathrooms. He began shouting at me and speaking
a language I did not understand… There were two bags in front of me. I grabbed
the first one as he stood one and a half meters away. I opened the bag as he
pointed his weapon directly at me. I emptied the bag on the floor. It contained
money and papers. I looked at him and he was laughing. I grabbed the second
bag to open it but I could not. I tried many times but it was useless, so he shouted
at me. He grabbed my hair and slapped me very hard across the face.

The two soldiers were charged with overstepping their authority and “conduct
unbecoming.” One of the defendants, identified as staff sergeant A. told Ynet
News: “I feel hurt and betrayed; they stabbed me in the back after what I gave
to the country. The Army was looking for someone to blame for the whole world
to see and chose soldiers who did nothing wrong.” He added: “I guess they don’t
understand who is for and who is against the country.”

Ynet reported that “the charges are considered light and do not carry a criminal
record. The maximum penalty for overstepping authority is one year in prison.”

Al Jazeera English interviewed the boy, who is now 11, in Gaza this month. The Arab
satellite network’s report, embedded below, suggests that the boy is still suffering
trauma as a result of the encounter.