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Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)

Abdullah, I have asked my wife about edicts and fatwas that are announced by this scholar or that council on subjects concerning how the faithful should conduct themselves.  I asked why it seems at most times the masses ignore these pronouncements.  She tried to explain that they can bang away from the pulpit all they like (so to speak), but their words only hold force if people want to hear and obey.  This makes me wonder at just hoe effective your suggestions on scholars trying to lead the horse to water.  Nothing says they'll be able to make the horse drink that water.
 
jollyjacktar said:
Abdullah, I have asked my wife about edicts and fatwas that are announced by this scholar or that council on subjects concerning how the faithful should conduct themselves.  I asked why it seems at most times the masses ignore these pronouncements.  She tried to explain that they can bang away from the pulpit all they like (so to speak), but their words only hold force if people want to hear and obey.  This makes me wonder at just hoe effective your suggestions on scholars trying to lead the horse to water.  Nothing says they'll be able to make the horse drink that water.

Yep, that is another issue. See Mufti Ibn Adam does a lot of womens rights issues, same with a lot of lesser known scholars. But people like there cultural Islam because it makes their life more beneficial to them, If people knew the true tafsir of these ayahs that Jarnhammer (i believe it was) quoted, these silly little women rights issues would dissappear.

Another thing people forget is the Quran is for all time. Not just 2016, so the teachings have to be able to last all of time and lets face it humans were not ready for a lot of stuff until recently.

Anywho, you are right that is another issue. Im putting kids to bed, without the wife so i cant stay around ill be back in a few hours.

Abdullah
 
[quote author=AbdullahD] how christian men can sell their daughters as sex slaves, take multiple wives and beat them with a thumb thick stick. It also supplies proof proving africans are lesser humans.

Now it is your perogative to believe what you wish, but it is a fact Christian, Atheist, Jewish women were treated far worse before Islam.[/quote]

See here is where I disagree 100%
I'm technically Roman Catholic by birth but I'm an athiest.
"Christian, Atheist, Jewish women were treated far worse before Islam"?
I'm not too sure about what happened 2000 years ago but I can tell you as of yesterday Christian Jewish and Athiest women are treated a hell of a lot better than Islamic women are treated under Sharia law.  Sure a christian woman in some weirdo sect might be a sister-wife where basically one man is married to 3 or 4 women, but those women aren't being routinely smashed to death with rocks for perceived acts of adultery. Those women aren't being burried to their necks in dirt and having their relatives bouncing rocks off their face till they're dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJv-72DSpaE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH1JHHQxd7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZnElkJpv0Q



But until and unless you start interpreting the Sharia how the vast number of Muslims know it should be interperted, dont expect your opinion to hold weight. Your views on the culture of certain countries may hold a lot of weight, but your view on Islamic sharia does not.

Sharia law is brutal. It treats women like material, like objects. YOU may have a kindlier gentler version of what you perceive Sharia law to be, or what you want it to be, but that's not the average.
 
Jarnhamar said:
See here is where I disagree 100%
I'm technically Roman Catholic by birth but I'm an athiest.
"Christian, Atheist, Jewish women were treated far worse before Islam"?
I'm not too sure about what happened 2000 years ago but I can tell you as of yesterday Christian Jewish and Athiest women are treated a hell of a lot better than Islamic women are treated under Sharia law.  Sure a christian woman in some weirdo sect might be a sister-wife where basically one man is married to 3 or 4 women, but those women aren't being routinely smashed to death with rocks for perceived acts of adultery. Those women aren't being burried to their necks in dirt and having their relatives bouncing rocks off their face till they're dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJv-72DSpaE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH1JHHQxd7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZnElkJpv0Q



Sharia law is brutal. It treats women like material, like objects. YOU may have a kindlier gentler version of what you perceive Sharia law to be, or what you want it to be, but that's not the average.

I think you missed my point.

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t645675/

http://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/slavery/

http://literalbible.blogspot.ca/2007/02/if-you-sell-your-daughter-as-slave.html?m=1

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/book_with_no_limits.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/wife_beating_not_forbidden_in_bible.htm

http://www.alahazrat.net/islam/women-before-islam.php

See look, I spent 30 seconds on google and look at all these links i got validating my points. Must mean im right, right? Do we really need to continue this pathetic childish argument? I am saying real Islam treats women right and I have authentic texts backing it up. You are talking about cultural crap.

http://www.islamswomen.com/articles/do_muslim_women_have_rights.php

http://www.realislam.com/muslim_women.htm

http://www.iiie.net/index.php?q=node/60

These last 3 links are non troll like. The first view is to illustrate the stupidity of relying on google to make arguments. I can very easily make and sustain an arguement that women are treated like crap in Christianity or any other religion you choose compared to Islam. Does that make me right?

Until and unless you can differentiate between Culture and Islam, Respect what Islam ACTUALLY teaches.. this conversation is over. I can find Christian peoples and other peoples who follow the stupidest of things, right now in this day and age. But does that mean that is christianity? for crying out loud man, where is the critical thought? if you are trying to tell me women are treated like crap in certain so called Islamic countries, then yeah your right. But that doesnt make it Islam when authentic teachings from the Prophet of Islam denounces those exact practices.

Abdullah
 
AbdullahD it sounds like you're getting upset.

Your first link is to Stormfront so I skipped that, I'm not big on White Supremacist web pages.

The remainder of your links; yes of course there's some weirdo shit in the bible and christian teachings. The thing is, most (99.9%) Christians don't follow those teachings. Most Christians in 2016 aren't smashing rocks off the head of women burried in Sand up to their necks. Islam Is. 

I looked for Christian cutting the hand off a thief and nothing came up expect for ISIS and other Radical Islamist's cutting the hands and heads off people. Christianity may talk about it from 2000 years ago but Islam is doing it 20 seconds ago. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

I have no doubt you have a noble self-stylized iteration of what Islam is, or should be. The truth is this is what Islam actually is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO2NHltq8IM
 
Jarnhamar said:
AbdullahD it sounds like you're getting upset.

Your first link is to Stormfront so I skipped that, I'm not big on White Supremacist web pages.

The remainder of your links; yes of course there's some weirdo crap in the bible and christian teachings. The thing is, most (99.9%) Christians don't follow those teachings. Most Christians in 2016 aren't smashing rocks off the head of women burried in Sand up to their necks. Islam Is. 

I looked for Christian cutting the hand off a thief and nothing came up expect for ISIS and other Radical Islamist's cutting the hands and heads off people. Christianity may talk about it from 2000 years ago but Islam is doing it 20 seconds ago. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

I have no doubt you have a noble self-stylized iteration of what Islam is, or should be. The truth is this is what Islam actually is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO2NHltq8IM

Maybe try looking up Christian's shooting up planned parent hood clinics, Black churchs, hanging non-white and homosexuals, the christian ethnic cleansing squads in africa, christian polygyny in india, slaughtering jews in ww2, priests raping little kids etc etc... by your fallible logic this is what christianity is, because some christians have done these acts. This is my last response because obviously you search history makes finding this stuff hard.

My point is differentiate between culture and Islam. Also I dont have data to waste watching videos.

Abdullah
 
Rather than spiralling down this argument, I'll raise a point which I think Edward brought up some time ago in another thread about the role of culture.

He pointed out that the violent strains of Islam we are dealing with right now are centred on the Middle East, and many of the things and activities that *we* object to are artifacts of Arab/Persian culture rather than Islam. When we get farther away from the Middle East, in places like Malaysia and Indonesia, we generally find people are much more "laid back" and not very prone to follow the violent ways of their Middle Eastern counterparts. Edward pointed out that south Asian culture in general has a much softer approach to things, so the violent and radical strains of Islam were far less appealing to the majority of people.

Now for the last several decades the Saudis have been funding Madrassa's around the world to preach their own intolerant form of Wahhabi Islam, which is the negative version of the model I was suggesting upthread, which is fuelling more and more local radical groups around the world (the growth of the Internet also makes spreading messages and compelling visuals so much easier as well; sad to say the internet beheading porn of ISIS is actually a recruiting tool, among other things).

As for how to interpret Sharia law, I will have to defer to Islamic scholars (while I respect you for coming out to provide input AbdullahD, I am not going just by your interpretation of what Sharia law should be). OTOH, here in the West, where we live and work under a liberal democratic culture and system of government, I am going to side with the other posters and say that "in Rome, do as the Romans do". You can follow Sharia as a philosophy and way of life if you like, and I'm always interested in learning, but in terms of the Rule of Law, we all need to follow Western law.
 
Thucydides said:
Rather than spiralling down this argument, I'll raise a point which I think Edward brought up some time ago in another thread about the role of culture.

He pointed out that the violent strains of Islam we are dealing with right now are centred on the Middle East, and many of the things and activities that *we* object to are artifacts of Arab/Persian culture rather than Islam. When we get farther away from the Middle East, in places like Malaysia and Indonesia, we generally find people are much more "laid back" and not very prone to follow the violent ways of their Middle Eastern counterparts. Edward pointed out that south Asian culture in general has a much softer approach to things, so the violent and radical strains of Islam were far less appealing to the majority of people.

Now for the last several decades the Saudis have been funding Madrassa's around the world to preach their own intolerant form of Wahhabi Islam, which is the negative version of the model I was suggesting upthread, which is fuelling more and more local radical groups around the world (the growth of the Internet also makes spreading messages and compelling visuals so much easier as well; sad to say the internet beheading porn of ISIS is actually a recruiting tool, among other things).

As for how to interpret Sharia law, I will have to defer to Islamic scholars (while I respect you for coming out to provide input AbdullahD, I am not going just by your interpretation of what Sharia law should be). OTOH, here in the West, where we live and work under a liberal democratic culture and system of government, I am going to side with the other posters and say that "in Rome, do as the Romans do". You can follow Sharia as a philosophy and way of life if you like, and I'm always interested in learning, but in terms of the Rule of Law, we all need to follow Western law.

That last paragraph is entrenched in sharia  law we must follow the laws of the land we reside in :)

dont just take my opinion look at the scholars
 
Stipulated, that trying to export our own democratic institutions as we know them is a waste of time.

Therefore, benighted peoples, as a reciprocal favour stop coming here to f*ck up our institutions by bringing in selected bits and pieces of your medieval ways.  We can't tell in advance which ones are going to erode whatever it is that makes our society so desirable to live in, so either stay in the Old Country or leave all of your customs and practices in the Old Country.

Furthermore, to all the self-aggrandizing religious and cultural triumphalists citing laundry lists of grievances in half the countries most people don't even know exist, take up your grievances with the governments of those countries.  If you envy our prosperity and freedom, emulate us rather than trying to drag us down into your cesspool of misery.
 
Thucydides said:
Rather than spiralling down this argument, I'll raise a point which I think Edward brought up some time ago in another thread about the role of culture.

Great points, thanks Thucydides (and Edward).
 
AbdullahD said:
That last paragraph is entrenched in sharia  law we must follow the laws of the land we reside in :)

dont just take my opinion look at the scholars

Then why are they pushing for, and getting Sharia Law in the UK?  Why did one of the VIA Rail terrorists try that shit (isn't bound by Canadian Law only Sharia) as his defence in court?
 
jollyjacktar said:
Then why are they pushing for, and getting Sharia Law in the UK?  Why did one of the VIA Rail terrorists try that crap (isn't bound by Canadian Law only Sharia) as his defence in court?

We've seen many people try and state they aren't bound by Canadian law (Freemen on the land for example?).  I would hardly think that an accused extremist facing the courts is an example of some concerted effort to bring sharia law to Canada.

In England some context is needed.  It is an arbitration process that all parties agree to.  And is regulated under their arbitration act.  It deals primarily with marriage and divorce and other civil matters.  Not unlike cannon law processes that exist here in Canada. So while I can get a divorce using the Catholic church and that process is recognised by law, even if the church denies me an annulment, I can still get a divorce recognised by law even though the church refuses to recognise it. 

Of course that does not mean that women are treated fairly under that system (Sharia), but seems to be something that is participated on a volunteer basis and is not anything that can be forced on anyone.

 
Remius said:
We've seen many people try and state they aren't bound by Canadian law (Freemen on the land for example?).  I would hardly think that an accused extremist facing the courts is an example of some concerted effort to bring sharia law to Canada.

In England some context is needed.  It is an arbitration process that all parties agree to.  And is regulated under their arbitration act.  It deals primarily with marriage and divorce and other civil matters.  Not unlike cannon law processes that exist here in Canada. So while I can get a divorce using the Catholic church and that process is recognised by law, even if the church denies me an annulment, I can still get a divorce recognised by law even though the church refuses to recognise it. 

Of course that does not mean that women are treated fairly under that system (Sharia), but seems to be something that is participated on a volunteer basis and is not anything that can be forced on anyone.

I didn't say dickhead was trying to get Sharia Law introduced to Canada.  I said that he felt he wasn't bound by Canadian Law.  A big difference.

I believe that in the UK there are those who are trying to have Sharia Law replace the civil laws of the UK in certain enclaves not just in mediation situations.

As for those freemen of the land idiots, they are more anti-government and taxes than anything else and are differently motivated.  As Abdullah stated when in country X you are to live by the laws of said country.  Again, a big difference between Sharia Law in the West and freemen of the land morons.  They don't have a caveat instructing them to obey the laws of the land.
 
I think you have been using bad stuff, Remius:

First of all, in Canada, the Divorce Act is a Federal Law. It is quite clear and impossible to avoid. Superior Courts, and only Superior Courts in the various provinces and territories can grant divorces. Absolutely no one else, and definitely not religious "arbitrator" tribunals.

The very few cannon tribunals left in Canada are here to apply cannon law to Catholics on issues arising from the religious aspects of their life only: i.e. They exist only to decide if the church will grant you an annulment - nothing else, and that annulment - if you get it -carries no weight whatsoever before the Courts and the State, where only a properly pronounced divorce in Superior Court is valid.

And only a few years ago, the Muslim communities of Ontario tried to get the very type of "arbitration" sharia tribunals you mentioned exist in England to go around the rules arising from the Family Assets Act, in other words, to deprive Muslim women of their equality rights under that act by giving most of the assets to the husband. There was an uproar and in the end Ontario clearly stated that no one could go around the Act and the province would not authorize such tribunal. Funny enough, someone pointed out that such "tribunal" existed in the Jewish community. And as a result, they were also excluded from dealing with  the Family Assets Act from now on, and became restricted (like the Catholics) to deciding if the wife could compel her husband to provide her with a "Get" (Jewish divorce that lets you get remarried at the Synagogue if you want later).
 
Hmn, seems you are right and I'll retract what i said. 

For the record I'm not for it.  At all. Rather would prefer to see an equal application of the rules to everyone.
 
"I dont envy you, I pity you."

You engage like a teenage girl.  If you want to criticize my shortcomings, do it directly, openly, and with substantive and substantiated points - not in some feminized/emasculated tone implying a position of moral advantage which does not exist.

I accept the premise that westerners should demonstrate more humility and interfere less abroad; we have problems of our own that still need resolution.  But we - the "West" - should without apology assert the cultural customs and institutional practices which have served us well, and not dilute them in the name of insubstantial and meaningless concepts such as "diversity" and "multiculturalism".
 
Brad Sallows said:
"I dont envy you, I pity you."

You engage like a teenage girl.  If you want to criticize my shortcomings, do it directly, openly, and with substantive and substantiated points - not in some feminized/emasculated tone implying a position of moral advantage which does not exist.

I accept the premise that westerners should demonstrate more humility and interfere less abroad; we have problems of our own that still need resolution.  But we - the "West" - should without apology assert the cultural customs and institutional practices which have served us well, and not dilute them in the name of insubstantial and meaningless concepts such as "diversity" and "multiculturalism".

I made an assessment of you and critiqued you honestly, in a semi private forum. Something I was taught as a child, not to expose peoples shortcomings for all to see. Since you persist in child like actions, it seems I must develop my arguements more.

Jarnhammer, yes I was getting annoyed. Hence why I extricated myself from our conversation. In my version of the truth, people must differentiate culture from religion. I also believe people must assess all angles before they make decisions.

So when so many prophetic teachings trump and contradict  many things cultural Muslims do, we should be able to discern that what they do is not Islamic. Hadith collections like Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi etc have many stories on womens rights. So we should, in my little world, see what the scholars have taught historically and recently and where they get the proof from and if other proofs exist.

Then to further that a person should, again in my world, assess how the prophet sws said sharia and Quran should be interperted. Then apply those rules and see if they hold weight. Which in many cases proper interpretation of the Quran and sharia, makes a big difference. There is more then 15 qualities a person Must have before he is eligible to give exegesis of Quran.. that way he doesnt corrupt it's true teachings (which is what cultural Muslims have done).

Also as a side note, some of those verses you quoted I did not see the correlation to the arguement you made. I will concede that their are things about Islam you may not like, which is all fine and dandy. Our views of capital punishment and modesty, a lot of people disagree with and that is fine. But if you think we treat our women like crap that is a gross injustice, makes me think, you think many Muslims are less then human. I have a daughter and any so called man who wants to treat her like crap, will have a rude awakening, yet I expect her to practice Islam as much as she is able to.

btw those first links were to substantiate that you can find anything on the internet you choose to. Anyone who takes stormfront seriously,  I dont want to waste time on. So I'm happy you didn't even look ;) it was just for illustration.

Now Brad, your ignorant and narrow view of the world is why I pity you. You seem to only think a half dozen Islamic countries exist or are worth citing, which is quite pathetic. There are many Islamic countries in the world and they range from Progressive to regressive, from liberal to conservative, from rich to poor. Most people know and understand this, which makes a lot of people shake their head at your arguements. Quickly google up Islamic countries in the world and realize that we are contributing a lot to this world. Take a look at how Muslims helped shape your so called western world. Whenever you make general statements about billions of people, you tend to look the fool.

Now I am not sure why I am responding to you, cause I had you pegged a while back as an Islamophobic. But meh, I wasted time from my life in replying to you... honestly I should just google articulate and educated responses to your questions and copy paste them here instead of typing my own.

As a final note, if people have not noticed. I do not post in other areas in authoritative ways, because I have no clue what i am talking about by my own criteria. So I am limited to posting here, because I have some small knowledge. Until and unless I learn more, you will find my posting on this site limited to very few topics.

Abdullah
 
AbdullahD said:
I made an assessment of you and critiqued you honestly, in a semi private forum. Something I was taught as a child, not to expose peoples shortcomings for all to see. Since you persist in child like actions, it seems I must develop my arguements more.

Jarnhammer, yes I was getting annoyed. Hence why I extricated myself from our conversation. In my version of the truth, people must differentiate culture from religion. I also believe people must assess all angles before they make decisions.

So when so many prophetic teachings trump and contradict  many things cultural Muslims do, we should be able to discern that what they do is not Islamic. Hadith collections like Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi etc have many stories on womens rights. So we should, in my little world, see what the scholars have taught historically and recently and where they get the proof from and if other proofs exist.

Then to further that a person should, again in my world, assess how the prophet sws said sharia and Quran should be interperted. Then apply those rules and see if they hold weight. Which in many cases proper interpretation of the Quran and sharia, makes a big difference. There is more then 15 qualities a person Must have before he is eligible to give exegesis of Quran.. that way he doesnt corrupt it's true teachings (which is what cultural Muslims have done).

Also as a side note, some of those verses you quoted I did not see the correlation to the arguement you made. I will concede that their are things about Islam you may not like, which is all fine and dandy. Our views of capital punishment and modesty, a lot of people disagree with and that is fine. But if you think we treat our women like crap that is a gross injustice, makes me think, you think many Muslims are less then human. I have a daughter and any so called man who wants to treat her like crap, will have a rude awakening, yet I expect her to practice Islam as much as she is able to.

btw those first links were to substantiate that you can find anything on the internet you choose to. Anyone who takes stormfront seriously,  I dont want to waste time on. So I'm happy you didn't even look ;) it was just for illustration.

Now Brad, your ignorant and narrow view of the world is why I pity you. You seem to only think a half dozen Islamic countries exist or are worth citing, which is quite pathetic. There are many Islamic countries in the world and they range from Progressive to regressive, from liberal to conservative, from rich to poor. Most people know and understand this, which makes a lot of people shake their head at your arguements. Quickly google up Islamic countries in the world and realize that we are contributing a lot to this world. Take a look at how Muslims helped shape your so called western world. Whenever you make general statements about billions of people, you tend to look the fool.

Now I am not sure why I am responding to you, cause I had you pegged a while back as an Islamophobic. But meh, I wasted time from my life in replying to you... honestly I should just google articulate and educated responses to your questions and copy paste them here instead of typing my own.

As a final note, if people have not noticed. I do not post in other areas in authoritative ways, because I have no clue what i am talking about by my own criteria. So I am limited to posting here, because I have some small knowledge. Until and unless I learn more, you will find my posting on this site limited to very few topics.

Abdullah

Far be it from me to defend Brad. He does a great job looking after himself.  However; He had a very factual and reasoned response, albeit blunt and harsh.  I see nothing immature or childish in what he had to say.  Your response on the other hand was very snobbish and "holier than thou"  No doubt what he had to say struck a chink in your armour.

 
>Now Brad, your ignorant and narrow view of the world is why I pity you.

Pity when expressed as a statement of assumed moral advantage reflects poorly on the pitier, not the pitied.  Treat people as equals, don't condescend, and don't project.
 
AbdullahD said:
I made an assessment of you and critiqued you honestly, in a semi private forum. Something I was taught as a child, not to expose peoples shortcomings for all to see. Since you persist in child like actions, it seems I must develop my arguements more.

Jarnhammer, yes I was getting annoyed. Hence why I extricated myself from our conversation. In my version of the truth, people must differentiate culture from religion. I also believe people must assess all angles before they make decisions.

So when so many prophetic teachings trump and contradict  many things cultural Muslims do, we should be able to discern that what they do is not Islamic. Hadith collections like Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi etc have many stories on womens rights. So we should, in my little world, see what the scholars have taught historically and recently and where they get the proof from and if other proofs exist.

Then to further that a person should, again in my world, assess how the prophet sws said sharia and Quran should be interperted. Then apply those rules and see if they hold weight. Which in many cases proper interpretation of the Quran and sharia, makes a big difference. There is more then 15 qualities a person Must have before he is eligible to give exegesis of Quran.. that way he doesnt corrupt it's true teachings (which is what cultural Muslims have done).

Also as a side note, some of those verses you quoted I did not see the correlation to the arguement you made. I will concede that their are things about Islam you may not like, which is all fine and dandy. Our views of capital punishment and modesty, a lot of people disagree with and that is fine. But if you think we treat our women like crap that is a gross injustice, makes me think, you think many Muslims are less then human. I have a daughter and any so called man who wants to treat her like crap, will have a rude awakening, yet I expect her to practice Islam as much as she is able to.

btw those first links were to substantiate that you can find anything on the internet you choose to. Anyone who takes stormfront seriously,  I dont want to waste time on. So I'm happy you didn't even look ;) it was just for illustration.

Now Brad, your ignorant and narrow view of the world is why I pity you. You seem to only think a half dozen Islamic countries exist or are worth citing, which is quite pathetic. There are many Islamic countries in the world and they range from Progressive to regressive, from liberal to conservative, from rich to poor. Most people know and understand this, which makes a lot of people shake their head at your arguements. Quickly google up Islamic countries in the world and realize that we are contributing a lot to this world. Take a look at how Muslims helped shape your so called western world. Whenever you make general statements about billions of people, you tend to look the fool.

Now I am not sure why I am responding to you, cause I had you pegged a while back as an Islamophobic. But meh, I wasted time from my life in replying to you... honestly I should just google articulate and educated responses to your questions and copy paste them here instead of typing my own.

As a final note, if people have not noticed. I do not post in other areas in authoritative ways, because I have no clue what i am talking about by my own criteria. So I am limited to posting here, because I have some small knowledge. Until and unless I learn more, you will find my posting on this site limited to very few topics.

Abdullah


I promised myself to stay out of this discussion, but I do need to comment on two of your points, the ones I highlighted:

    First ~ I agree with both; and

    Second ~ I think you're the one who is missing the point.

I have said many times and over many years in these fora that the problem with the Islamic Crescent is cultural, not religious. I have little knowledge of and no brief for or against Islam ... I simply regard it as wholly inconsequential, on about a par with, say, Shinto or Sikhism but with more adherents. What I have spoken about, at some length, is that culture matters.

My assessment based on 70+ years of living, working, visiting in too many countries to count on five or six continents and several island regions is that people, regardless of race, creed or sex, are all roughly alike: smart and stupid, honest and venal, brave and cowardly in pretty much the same proportions everywhere. So why do some "cultures" dominate others? The answer is in the question: culture matters. In my opinion the cultures of Africa, all of it, the Middle East and West Asia and of the pre Columbian Americas were ~ and still are ~ weak, even retarded, in the sense of lagging "behind" others. My simplest definition of cultural retardation is the notion of people as property. If your culture treats women, for example, as inferior to men, for whatever reason, then it is a retarded culture and it will not succeed in and beyond the 21st century. If your culture condones or, worse, practices slavery then it, too, is retarded, or worse, and, perhaps, should be put out of its misery if it will not reform itself. Those markers are not, in themselves, overly "cultural" they are, in fact, measures of societal "efficiency," efficient societies make the best possible use of all their human resources and that means that men and women must be treated as equally valuable resource elements and we all know, from economics 101, that slavery is an inefficient use of resources. Many, many smart people in the Islamic Crescent and in other regions know that to be true and they are trying to make changes but the cultural weight is too heavy and, in some cases, religion reinforces or, more often, simply conforms to cultural norms.

    (One of the first things Zhou Enlai needed to do in 1949 was to (temporarily) suppress Confucianism while he forced equality on to China... Confucianism adapted and returned,
      accepting, as has most of Christianity and much of Judaism, the basic principle of equality.)


So I am with Brad: the problem is that we need to protect and promote our strong, "right" cultural norms here at home ... and that may mean insisting that people who come here adapt their beliefs to suit our environment. After all, we didn't conscript anyone from Indonesia, Pakistan, Eqypt or Algeria and force them to come to Canada, they all wanted to be here rather than there, for whatever reason, and it is not unreasonable to expect, even demand that they contribute to our ways rather than to try and change them holus-bolus. I do  not believe that Islam, per se, is a problem ... it's just another superstition, one amongst many. I do not believe that Muslims are, inherently, less able or less law abiding or less (or more) anything. I do believe that Muslims in Canada must adapt themselves and Islam in Canada to suit Canada, not try to make Canada fit Saudi Arabian cultural norms. That, in my opinion, is the point.
 
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