Instructors giving students pushups - yay or nay?

[PJ D-Dog]

We use to call the hand spike "Mr. Happy" and you didn't want to do anything that would cause Mr. Happy to get angry......because when Mr. Happy gets angry, people......uh.....uh.....suffer inexplicable torture to the upper body.

PJ D-Dog

 

[muskrat89]

Gee.. PJ... I'm sure your TSM was much more benevolent than that...    >

 

[PJ D-Dog]

My TSM was AWESOME.....I never said I had to carry Mr Happy.....what I meant is that I knew of his existance...that's it....he existed.  Of course some red hair-ring guy felt that I did not rate anything due to this and so he tried to continually discredit my leadership ability in the face of others.  Incidently, he's re-upping at 89th.

PJ D-Dog

 

[GO!!!]

There is more than one definition of the term "pack drill".   It can mean repeated inspections of full kit, laid out as required.   It also means the archaic punishment of having someone run in circles, usually around a parade square with his rifle and a rucksack weighted down with 50lbs or so of rocks, until they fall down.   GO!!, is that what you mean by defaulters doing pack drill?   I have certainly had defaulters do the first version but certainly not the second.   Correct me if I'm mistaken here but I understood that the second version of pack drill left the CF in the 1960s.

I've never seen rocks in the pack, usually just the kit list, and all the canteens and two quarts filled. Probably abouit 45-50lbs. And they are usually run out to the pde square and given drill  for about an hour, not made to run the whole time. Although when I did it, I would have preferred running to marking time, and trying to do about turns with a ruck on.

The inspection happens before that, so you don't "forget" to put something in!

Apparently, we are stuck in the 60s!  ;D

 

[Ninja9186]

Im in week 8 of my BMQ training right now and Ive got to say that I havent yet felt physically challenged (other than when the PSP staff let us run around the parade square at our own pace for 20 min) PT is too far spread out throughout the weeks and most of my instructors can barely do 20 push ups without nearly suffering a stroke. In turn we have only been punnished physically 3 or 4 times in 8 weeks. To be honest I kind of feel a litle bit embarrassed telling friends and family at home just how physically easy BMQ is. This is the Videogame and Movie generation and even though the real military is not like it is in the movies, basic training needs to be because the harder the challenge the more satisfying it will be to complete. We need to be yelled and cussed at, we need to be rundown into the ground physically until we can do no more. But then again thats just my opinion, allthough I can vouch the same for 90% of recruits that ive spoken to.

 

[paracowboy]

I've never seen rocks in the pack, usually just the kit list, and all the canteens and two quarts filled. Probably abouit 45-50lbs. And they are usually run out to the pde square and given drill   for about an hour, not made to run the whole time. Although when I did it, I would have preferred running to marking time, and trying to do about turns with a ruck on.

The inspection happens before that, so you don't "forget" to put something in!

Apparently, we are stuck in the 60s!   ;D

as GO!!! stated, we don't add weight to the kit list. And we don't make anyone run with a ruck. Simple drill. One of the many reasons I dislike BOS. I suck at calling drill. (And, if the RSM is reading this, it's not an invitation for more practice, Sir. Honest. I'll just read the pam again.)

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Well, the other day my troops had a timing to meet and they didn't.  I offered them all ten pushups for every minute they were over.  We went to breakfast and after which we adopted the pushup position outside the kitchen.  I took part in doing the pushups and assisted in stopping them at regular intervals when they weren't counting together (in the armour, we emphasize "teamwork" as we live in crews).  I later mentioned to my peers what I had done and someone asked, "why didn't you let them do them alone?".

Having done that, I realize that it all depends on the circumstances as to when you will do the pushups with the students or not.  If it were my crew coming in late after a smoke break (GRR) then I would make them do the pushups and not do them myself, BUT if if were the whole course I would feel more "leader-like" to do them with them.  As a chellenge to them that if I can do them, they should be able to.

It's unfotunate that the military has gotten to a point where someone actually has to ask the question on whether pushups are a "no-no" or not!!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
It's unfotunate that the military has gotten to a point where someone actually has to ask the question on whether pushups are a "no-no" or not!!

5 pages and thats the best line in it.........truly unfortunate.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

...BUT if if were the whole course I would feel more "leader-like" to do them with them.   As a chellenge to them that if I can do them, they should be able to.

At the risk of being flamed to death....I understand what you are saying, but I just don't agree with it.  It tends to go against my grain.  I would not offer a challenge of that sort to the students.  If they screw up, they pay the price.  Cut and dry actually although you were trying to be creative.  As for feeling more "leader-like", well, I won't comment.

Good post and timely for the times.

PJ D-Dog

 

[ZipperHead]

Im in week 8 of my BMQ training right now and Ive got to say that I havent yet felt physically challenged (other than when the PSP staff let us run around the parade square at our own pace for 20 min) PT is too far spread out throughout the weeks and most of my instructors can barely do 20 push ups without nearly suffering a stroke. In turn we have only been punnished physically 3 or 4 times in 8 weeks. To be honest I kind of feel a litle bit embarrassed telling friends and family at home just how physically easy BMQ is. This is the Videogame and Movie generation and even though the real military is not like it is in the movies, basic training needs to be because the harder the challenge the more satisfying it will be to complete. We need to be yelled and cussed at, we need to be rundown into the ground physically until we can do no more. But then again thats just my opinion, allthough I can vouch the same for 90% of recruits that ive spoken to.

I'm surprised it took someone of "this" generation this long to weigh in with an opinion like this. I know that when I went through ('88) the PT was a big part of the training, and having "Little Hitler" screaming at you to get dressed, from on top of the lockers, is something I will never forget. I trained pretty hard for basic training, running up to 8km to get ready (I can run over 20+ km now, but that's another story....), and it was pretty challenging. I remember doing pushups, with webbing on, our SMG's on our hands, and counting out 75 push-ups (5 for every empty casing found after our sweep of the range.... planted, I still suspect, by the DS, just for c*ck) during TQ3, and running LSD's (long slow distance) in Petawawa, and repeatedly running past the shacks, so just when you thought you were done, you weren't.

Now, the furthest I have seen anybody run in non-voluntary formed PT was the latest Terry Fox run, where 9.2km was mandatory for everyone without a chit, and 6km for those on chit. Actually, I was pretty impressed at the concept, as I'm sure the furthest that most people had run before that was 6.3km. As for "core" exercises like push-ups, sit-ups, squats, lunges, chins, I find that, due to the testing stages in the AFS, people are starting to do more of this style of PT, rather than just strictly running (guilty!!!) or just curling the bar to blast the pipes.

One thing I noticed as I went for a run around the base was the "birdcages" (chin up bars that form a hollow square) and chin-up bars near the entrances to the buildings. They seem to be rarely used (from what I have seen), and are non-existant in the Armour end (unless I'm completely blind and/or oblivious). I am guilty of not being able to do as many chin-ups as I should be able to do (my max in my younger days was 13, and now probably 6 or 7), and a big part of this is a lot of the PT that should be done hasn't, because it isn't part of our "culture", like it used to be.

I'm pretty sure I was driving into work, and saw Bzz doing the pushups with his course that he mentioned. It actually brought a smile to my face, as we have let things like this slide. I have heard people use excuses as to why we shouldn't, and none of them hold any real amount of water. The reasons why are more compelling. Fitness, teamwork, correcting mistakes. People seem to be afraid that if someone gets hurt, or even dies, while doing the PT, it is somehow their (the DS/instructor/leaders) "fault". Unless you are getting medieval on someone's a$$, and denying them water, going against a chit, or being completely unsafe and ridiculous, I say fuq it: do it. If they die, they die. Odds are, if they are a 6 sandwich-eating, deep-fried chocalate bar chomping, gravy guzzling sloth, they are gonna die in the not too distant future anyway. In 2000 in our camp, we had a clerk die doing a weight-bearing (webbing/rucksack) march in Bosnia. The knee-jerk reaction from many seemed to be "cancel ruckmarches: someone died doing one!!" Yeah, like that was the cause..... I think it was buddies time to pack it in.

We have people moaning and whining about things being unsafe (running trails muddy, roads slippery, a little dark, obstacle course had a bit of water on it, bears in the vicinity of running trails, etc), and look for any reason to avoid doing anything that might cause the least amount of discomfort. We, as a society and a military, have become soft and lazy. If it doesn't involve taking a pill, or takes longer than 20 minutes per day and sweating is involved, forget it.

I think that if you have never been pushed to the brink of your abilities (i.e ready to physically fall down, ready to pass out, can't walk another step), you don't know what you are capable of. The human body and mind are very strong, but we are now programmed to stop doing anything well short of actual exhaustion or even remotely close to our maximum potential. The body adapts very quickly to any loads we place on it, and that is in fact the only way to become better: push your body and/or mind.

When I was teaching courses in the field, on Friday's (maintenance afternoon) I would run the 6.5km from the area we do maintenance to the shacks we were staying in. People looked at me like I had 2 heads. Then I heard that 2 young soldiers wanted to follow my lead, and were told they couldn't because there was no safety vehicle available to follow them. Give me strength..... We are at the point now where everyone is so cautious that we are paralyzed at the thought about doing things like this because of what might happen. What, get in shape?!?! I think that when it comes to "risk analysis" you have to weigh the 99.5% probability that nothing will happen (negatively) to the .5% (or less) chance that something will. People still fly in airplanes even though they still crash. People still drive to work even though there are car crashes. People still eat double cheeseburgers with fenchfries even though people drop dead of heartattacks every day. And the one line of thought that I love hearing is: "Didn't you hear about the marathon runner that died of a heart-attack?!?! I'll never do that". Yeah, what about all the people dying of alcoholism, clogged arteries from smoking and eating greasy food. I think the chances of dying of a heart attack while running are a lot less than all those others. But the one that involves exercise, well, it involves work, and determination, and drive. So that's the one that is the easiest to say "screw it!" to.

Fight the good fight: keep the troops doing PT as a form of correction. Just don't limit it to one thing. Find something that that particular individual or group needs to work on, or hates doing (which, technically I guess makes it punishment, but who gives a sh!t as long as it improves their conditioning and makes them think twice about doing something wrong). I still remember "corrective training" that I was given well over 18 years ago for things I did wrong, and still avoid doing them because of this.

Al

 

[Haggis]

Amen!!! 

 

[DraconianGuard]

Hi, new to boards.

Hopefully by September I can get all my stuff ready to go and join Regular forces for infantry.

But, Allan, I hope I recieve an instructor as yourself. I cannot call myself fit for duty just yet (working on it, hard). But I hope when I arrive that I experience that sort of attitude when I work with my instructors. I plan to be the man volunteering for running on the dirtiest, muddiest, and most water barren coarse when it comes down to it.

 

[Old Ranger]

Back when I was instructing a Basic;
I had to do the Private Pile thing with on of the recruits.

He was a power horse and could do pushups till the cows came home;
his friends on the course, could not.

Only took 25 to square him away.

Push-ups and all physical stress have there different times and places.

If balanced properly, it leads to better comradery and a better solider.

Ben

 

[medicineman]

    Thinking of pack drill, my dad used to tell me that back in the 60's in Shilo, he had the dubious pleasure of doing pack drill with the handspike on a number of occasions - after some close order drill, he'd have to run a lap of the parade square, come smartly to a halt in front of the bomber, and say"I'm a 6 foot 2 inch useless individual - permission to carry on Bombardier?!"  My have things changed...

MM

 

[Old Ranger]

 useless individual -........Bombardier?!"  

And if I make any more comment, the "MonK" will drop fire on me ;D

And if the rating system was still active......

Ben

 

[ArmyRick]

As a CQCI, I have to admit I enjoy giving and participating in the CQC warm ups I do for my troops. Its 10 mins light cardio, 10 mins stretching and 20 (oops, sometimes I run over of BODY HARDENING !!! Now in proper warm ups for CQC lessons there is no room for Wa-wa-wa-wa can't do that. The PT must be tough, challenging and incoporate the 3 systems for fighting (ATP PC, Lactic and aerobic). usually it ends up being a very intense circuit training.
If you don't push them and train them hard then the soldiers get injured during sparring and pujil matches...

Some of the OLD ARMY needs to comeback because the CF and new people joining today tend to be physically weaker than 15-20 years ago. Doing push ups, squats, burpees, chin ups, runs in cbt boots (oh my how dare I say such filth!) other forms of extra PT through out the day strengthen and toughen the body. Hopefully everybody in the new transformation  army catches on and gets on with it. LEADERS at all levels must use common sense (don't go excess on anything or you just end up with injuries).

 

[Bzzliteyr]

ArmyRick, that just reminded me of a "lessons learned" manual that discussed physical upkeep and how important it was to unit integrity and health overseas.. I will dig around and find it.. it may play a factor in this discussion...

 

[kcdist]

Tried this once as a course officer in Wainwright....was good for a laugh.

'Jones' had a bad day...was the course clown, and on this day, disrupted my lecture with a few well timed (and quite funny) comments.

At the conclusion of afternoon PT, I presented 'Jones' with a chocolate bar. His punishment was to stand and eat his fat pill....wasn't allowed to improve his body along with myself and the rest of the platoon by doing a quick set of 25....

....My thoughts were never to use PT and/or pushups as punishment. There were better tools. Very few other occupations where the employees are allowed to work out during company time. Don't turn it into a negative.

 

[redleafjumper]

....My thoughts were never to use PT and/or pushups as punishment. There were better tools. Very few other occupations where the employees are allowed to work out during company time. Don't turn it into a negative.

Really great point kcdist, as was ArmyRick's earlier.  PT needs to be something positive and valued, not feared as punishment.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Pt is PT, pushups for mistakes are pushups for mistakes.. I doubt even the greenest soldiers can't figure that one out...in either instance, they can most likely do no harm.