Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[ueo]

Except the CA is attempting to place a foundation on quicksand…

Been known to happen, remember the new hospital in Lahr?

 

[Brad Sallows]

For the most part the Res F recruiting surges I observed, with additional money thrown at unit recruiters, was OK. But recruiting is just the entry to a training pipeline, and someone has to have a firm grip on the training pipeline to get the recruits from mufti to private-one-hook. "You recruited X people. Well done. Now you must provide Y of your (very few qualified and suitable) people as instructors for a year." Some units can't do "train recruits" and "meet BTS" at the same time because they lack the people (depth). So, failure.

 

[daftandbarmy]

For the most part the Res F recruiting surges I observed, with additional money thrown at unit recruiters, was OK. But recruiting is just the entry to a training pipeline, and someone has to have a firm grip on the training pipeline to get the recruits from mufti to private-one-hook. "You recruited X people. Well done. Now you must provide Y of your (very few qualified and suitable) people as instructors for a year." Some units can't do "train recruits" and "meet BTS" at the same time because they lack the people (depth). So, failure.

Regular Force units don't have to worry about expending time and resources in attracting, enrolling and training recruits (NCMs and Officers), or carrying untrained people on their books for months and months, or years in some cases..

Why should Reserve units (with much less resource breadth and depth) have to worry about that?

 

[dapaterson]

Regular Force units don't have to worry about expending time and resources in attracting, enrolling and training recruits (NCMs and Officers), or carrying untrained people on their books for months and months, or years in some cases..

Why should Reserve units (with much less resource breadth and depth) have to worry about that?

Because they whine and demand additional responsibilities without understanding them.

Besides, it pads unit numbers to have all those Pte (R) on the books.

 

[markppcli]

Regular Force units don't have to worry about expending time and resources in attracting, enrolling and training recruits (NCMs and Officers)

I’ll remember this next time I’m teaching a DP 1 lol. Part of STARS was that the Reserves would be responsible for training their own soldiers. That has never happened, with summer DP1s in training centres still being mass augmented from field units, much like every other DP1. Infact I’ve never not been short troops / peers because they were away supporting some course somewhere.

 

[KevinB]

I’ll remember this next time I’m teaching a DP 1 lol. Part of STARS was that the Reserves would be responsible for training their own soldiers. That has never happened, with summer DP1s in training centres still being mass augmented from field units, much like every other DP1. Infact I’ve never not been short troops / peers because they were away supporting some course somewhere.

I know from 1987 to 2005 I never knew of a summer without RegF augmentation (any sometimes total control) of PRes Training.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I’ll remember this next time I’m teaching a DP 1 lol. Part of STARS was that the Reserves would be responsible for training their own soldiers. That has never happened, with summer DP1s in training centres still being mass augmented from field units, much like every other DP1. Infact I’ve never not been short troops / peers because they were away supporting some course somewhere.

Every reserve unit has a Recruit Pl of untrained soldiers, as well as OCdts, who parade during the training year and work separately from the trained soldiers. Sometimes they don’t pass/ attend summer courses and stay around ‘forever’.

It’s a PITA that the Regs just don’t need to deal with, and probably not doing the untrained a big favour either.

 

[childs56]

So you found a doctor who could do the medicals?

What kind of wizard are you?

Actually no wizardry, We had an approved local Dr to do the medicals. They still had to be reviewed by Ottawa. But it worked pretty good. It took a bit of work for all involved. Many times we assisted our local CFRC with recruiting and initial paper work.
Things can work, you just need to have the right people in the correct place. Many times it is the wrong person for the wrong job in the Military.

Thinking outside the box and getting things done worked well back then and could work well now. Except the issues lack of courses, Pat Platoon being to long and recruits being subjected to poor conditions prior to training is one factor that unless the higher ups change, is not going to positively work out.

For example send them to Basic training then send to civie school to be a heavy duty mechanic. Then a local course specific to armoured or what ever they are needing.

 

[markppcli]

Every reserve unit has a Recruit Pl of untrained soldiers, as well as OCdts, who parade during the training year and work separately from the trained soldiers. Sometimes they don’t pass/ attend summer courses and stay around ‘forever’.

It’s a PITA that the Regs just don’t need to deal with, and probably not doing the untrained a big favour either.

Well 1 RCR is actually trialling that exact thing right now with this OJT Dp1 fiasco. But I suppose if you don’t count BTL / PAT platoons than that’s true for the time being. Those platoons do actually take up NCO postings btw.

I’ll ask you this question though, what would you do with untrained / awaiting training given the reserves can’t send all its persons awaiting training to PAT / BTL?

 

[childs56]

Well 1 RCR is actually trialling that exact thing right now with this OJT Dp1 fiasco. But I suppose if you don’t count BTL / PAT platoons than that’s true for the time being. Those platoons do actually take up NCO postings btw.

I’ll ask you this question though, what would you do with untrained / awaiting training given the reserves can’t send all its persons awaiting training to PAT / BTL?

We incorporated them into our regular training. We also ran classes for them to learn the basics such as rank, how to maintain a uniform, look after their gear things like that.

 

[Kirkhill]

Well, as a PITA MITCP intake I can tell you what was done.

Join the all ranks recruit platoon taking the same classes as the OR recruits. Extra classes from the officers on legalities, organization, culture, QR&Os. RSM and Adjt taking a personal interest. Being hauled out of class to be informed my parchment had arrived. Returned to class with the ORs to get my first salute. Upstairs to the mess to go broke buying rounds.

Training continued with the ORs. OJT with supervised taskings - investigation of tent fire on winter warfare ex comes to mind. Shadowing Pl Ldrs on exercisees. 2 weeks MITCP at Orangeville - Hockley Valley.

Year 2 - Recruiting Officer - Grizzly and troops to malls and schools. - Recruited my own platoon. Placed under tight supervision of an OC, 2iC, CSM, very experienced Platoon 2ic and 3 long service Master Corporals. More OJT. More independent study. Duty officer when the JRs was open. Excuses to the Commissionaire when one of the JRs decided he needed the keys to a Grizzly to take his girlfriend for the night for a ride - the Commissionaire held the keys. Info'd the Commissionaire the Corporal was suffering the after effects of paint fumes.

Excused summer training because I was signed up for Phase 2 at Gagetown in January. More OJT, shadowing A Coy Pl Ldr in the field. Organizing a range at Wainwright. Shit jobs like setting up tents for a Boy Scout Jamboree. Dealing with the fallout from a Winter Ex - overheated soldier passed out in the traces of a toboggan on a way up a mountain. Locating a lost breech block carrier in snow drift. The drift won. Unditching a Deuce and a Half that skated down the mountain into another drift. Without the assistance of the only winch in the packet because the OC had taken it back to the armouries to get help because he had more important things to do than make sure his Coy, with attached cadets, got back safely to the armouries.

I know there were manuals and lesson plans - I don't remember much in the way of dedicated instructors.

And then I was in Gagetown until my father croaked and was released. Transferred to the Johns for a while. Pretty much more of the same.

In short - I learned much the same way I learned any civvy job - with a lot of help from my friends.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Well 1 RCR is actually trialling that exact thing right now with this OJT Dp1 fiasco. But I suppose if you don’t count BTL / PAT platoons than that’s true for the time being. Those platoons do actually take up NCO postings btw.

I’ll ask you this question though, what would you do with untrained / awaiting training given the reserves can’t send all its persons awaiting training to PAT / BTL?

Have the Reserve CBG HQs do what they should to do, run a depot to produce trained soldiers/ Officers for the units instead of planning more golf weekends for all their Class B floppers

 

[FJAG]

Have the Reserve CBG HQs do what they should to do, run a depot to produce trained soldiers/ Officers for the units instead of planning more golf weekends for all their Class B floppers

ManMilDist (38 CBG) did that in the 1980s. It didn't work well for the units not located in Winnipeg. Units in Winnipeg were taxed for instructors. Theoretically it should have worked but most units were not happy with the idea as during the winter months they lost the use of both the instructors and the recruits. Go figure.

 

[Kirkhill]

ManMilDist (38 CBG) did that in the 1980s. It didn't work well for the units not located in Winnipeg. Units in Winnipeg were taxed for instructors. Theoretically it should have worked but most units were not happy with the idea as during the winter months they lost the use of both the instructors and the recruits. Go figure.

Centralized solutions can not work in Canada. And they most definitely will not work in a Militia scattered over 100 to 150 locations. Nor do they work for the 150 or so Ranger Patrols.

You're going to have to do something different.

The Cornwallis model is a viable option.

 

[FJAG]

The Cornwallis model

What exactly is that?

 

[markppcli]

We incorporated them into our regular training. We also ran classes for them to learn the basics such as rank, how to maintain a uniform, look after their gear things like that.

That was my experience in the reserves as well.

Have the Reserve CBG HQs do what they should to do, run a depot to produce trained soldiers/ Officers for the units instead of planning more golf weekends for all their Class B floppers

Okay so sure, let’s look at that from the 39 CBG context. How does that look for new recruits in Trail and Prince George ? Do they report to their units or are the sent class B to this depot ?

 

[daftandbarmy]

That was my experience in the reserves as well.



Okay so sure, let’s look at that from the 39 CBG context. How does that look for new recruits in Trail and Prince George ? Do they report to their units or are the sent class B to this depot ?

Most of our soldiers live near two major urban centres.

It would be easy to bus them all to a depot location, like Chilliwack, on weekends for training. In fact, we used to do that with the training facility in Nanaimo, I believe. Troops in remote locations could be serviced by a smaller detachment based in Vernon or Kamloops, or wherever makes sense.

The 50+ (very expensive and under-utlized) full time positions - with Class A augmentation as required - that currently inhabit the Bde HQs would then re-configure into a mainly recruiting and training role. The 'Class B Commandos' would then also have the huge culture shock of working weekends like the other reservists, which they do not do now.

In any case, the principle would be to ensure that only trained soldiers and Officers arrive at units, like the Reg F. Then the limited resources at the units could focus all their time and attention on readiness for whatever task they finally figure out for us.

And the full timers can scrap with the full timers at CFRG etc over the vagaries of the often mysterious recruiting systems.

 

[childs56]

Ultimately units and Brigades need to put the priority and emphasis on recruiting and training. If you do not then you can not grow it is that simple. You can point the fingers all you want. The CTCs were and I assume still haveing a hard time providing instructors and courses.
if Brigade HQ gave a few of their Class B jobs to hire instructors then things might look a little better.
I think back to early 2000s when the Navy in Esquimalt put together their own Basic training Cadre and trained their own recruits. It was a expensive solution for them but it worked to get people through the door and trained.

The Reserves need to put priority where it needs to go.
The Regular force well they are in a tough spot. But they can run indepent BMQs themselves and certain courses. Themselves as needed, again they need to prioritize their needs. If training is not a priority then they will fail.
The entire military needs a few people who realize what they need, not what they want.

 

[Kirkhill]

What exactly is that?

Anciently all recruits from all over Canada were sent to CFB Cornwallis for training. It had started off as the RCN's central training facility.

My point is that what works for regs doesn't work for the militia and rangers. And I continue to draw the distinction between the militia and the reserves. Reserves should be superannuated Regs.

 

[KevinB]

Active Guard members down here (similar to class B) participant in their Unit exercises. Of course they don’t have the same sort of boondoggle class Bn’s as Canada, as their higher formations are deployable.