Infantry Sections - 1964 to 2004

[Michael Dorosh]

This may properly go under "historical" but thought I'd try here first.   Just trying to pin down the "official" breakdown of a Canadian infantry section.

1964 - dismounted

Section Commander - Corporal, Sterling SMG
Section 2 i/c - Lance Corporal, FN C1
Section Automatic - Private, FN C2
7 Riflemen - Private, FN C1

1970 (approx) - dismounted (Mech with M113??)

Section Commander - Sergeant, Sterling SMG
Section 2 i/c - Master Corporal, FN C1
Section Automatic - Cpl/Pte, FNC2
Section Automatic - Cpl/Pte, FNC2
6 Riflemen, Cpl/Pte, FNC1


1979 (approx) - Mechanized (M113 or Grizzly)

Section Commander - Sergeant, Sterling SMG
Section 2 i/c - Master Corporal, FN C1
Section Automatic - Cpl/Pte, FNC2
Section Automatic - Cpl/Pte, FNC2
4 Riflemen, Cpl/Pte, FNC1

1990 - Mechanized (Grizzly or M113)

Section Commander - Sergeant (C7)
Section 2 i/c - Master Corporal, C7
Section Automatic - Cpl/Pte C9
Section Automatic - Cpl/Pte C9
4 Riflemen, Cpl/Pte, C7

2004 - Mechanized (LAV III)

Section Commander - Sergeant (C7)
Section 2 i/c - Master Corporal, C7
Section Automatic - Cpl/Pte C9
Section Automatic - Cpl/Pte C9
2 Grenadiers - Cpl/Pte (C7 w M203)
2 Riflemen - Cpl/Pte w C7

I don't think the latter is OPSEC unfriendly, but please advise me if so.   As Mark C pointed out, troops on actual combat operations seem to have replaced the C7 as far as possible with the C8, this is public knowledge.

Some of this may be very wide of the mark, so I am putting it out just as a starting point.   Naturally there are obvious omissions (dismounted or light infantry) -  I suppose I could dig out the old Section and Platoon in Battle but am more interested in the "real" way this was done.

TIA

 

[Kirkhill]

Mike, to the best of my recollection, in the 1980 - 1984 period just as the Grizzlies were introduced to the Highlanders, we were being instructed that the 10 man section was the doctrinal configuration for all applications but in practice we were to prepare to fight a 9 man section (one down due to manning restrictions)

That would have been as you describe in 1979 but with a fifth rifleman.

How the section was to fit into the Grizzly was a matter of debate.

At one time the dismount element was supposed to be 9 men, with the Veh Comd dismounting past the turret basket (he had to keep his webbing off and grab it and his hat just as he exited the veh), 6 men sitting in the centre facing outwards and 2 men jammed into the jump seat up against the engine firewall.  Fortunately I don't think we ever had the numbers to actually operate that way.

In practice it was more like 2 men mounted (dvr and gunner) with 7 men dismounting (incl comd).

I also seem to recall that we had a 3-man weapons det equipped with one C5 MMG ( the old Browning 30 rebored to 7.62) one CG84 and one 60mm Mortar without the Bipod.  Coy OC would decide which weapons would be carried by which platoons.

Hope that helps some.

Cheers.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Good stuff indeed - good to get it from the horse's mouth so to speak.

I remember an article sometime in the 1980s that said that squad/section size was very often determined not by tactical desirabilities, but by the capacity of the latest model armoured personnel carrrier.  Apparently the Canadians felt differently.....

 

[marshall sl]

I was in during the 70/80s .As A Section Commander I never carried a SMG,always a FNC1. The SMGs were reserved for drivers, certain patrol tasks, Communicators Etc.

Carried one in Egypt though when on guard duty at night :warstory:

 

[dangerboy]

Just some further info with a LAV you leave one of the comanders in the vehicle comanding it(my experiance has been the 2i/c) and the senior Cpl (or Pte) being employed as a 2i/c on the ground.

 

[Danjanou]

Marshall I always thought you had one of us flunkies carry your weapon for you like a caddie?   ;D
Just kidding you were one of the better Section Commanders I ever worked under.

What Michael has posted as noted is what the book says. As seen it was/is often open to interpretation depending on what was available and or mission. M/Cpl and even Cpl section commanders seem more often the rule than the exception especially in reserve units. Like Marshall as a Sect Comd I rarely if ever carried an SMG prior to conversion to the C7/8/9. The FNC1 made more sense, especially in regard to ammo resupiply, and the SMG were so few and far between that it made more sense to give them to rad ops and wpns dets etc.

I remember in Germany in 1980 ( M Coy RCR) our sections were organised as a Section Comd (Sgt) , M113 Dvr and two wpns teams of 3 men each for dismounted ops. One with the Carl G and the other with the 50 cal. As most of what we were doing was defensive ops on REFORGER against enemy mech and armoured formations that org made sense. Can't remember working as a conventional, rifle group, C2 group type section over there (then again it was a long time ago).

 

[onecat]

Hey maybe this could be in a another thread, but I was hoping that some of older members of the forums who were in when the the CF had the FNC1/2  could maybe give more a detail posting how things were set up?  How the section tactics work, what the combat loads like.  Its so hard to find information on this time period.. and finding any pictures of FN in Canadian use is a nightmre.

Did the Sections use two fireteams back then with a C2 in each?  Or were the C2 put together to increase the firepower, as I have heard that C2 was not the best section support weapon.

 

[Michael OLeary]

radiohead, you'll find some of the information you're looking for here:

The Canadian Infantry Section Attack Part One:
Attrition Training in a Manoeuvre Army
http://regimentalrogue.com/papers/sect_atk.htm

 

[onecat]

The site seems to be down... is there another way into site that you know of?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Marshall I always thought you had one of us flunkies carry your weapon for you like a caddie?  ;D
Just kidding you were one of the better Section Commanders I ever worked under.

What Michael has posted as noted is what the book says. As seen it was/is often open to interpretation depending on what was available and or mission. M/Cpl and even Cpl section commanders seem more often the rule than the exception especially in reserve units. Like Marshall as a Sect Comd I rarely if ever carried an SMG prior to conversion to the C7/8/9. The FNC1 made more sense, especially in regard to ammo resiiply, and the SMG were so few and far between that it made more sense to give them to rad ops and wpns dets etc.

I remember in Germany in 1980 ( M Coy RCR) our sections were organised as a Section Comd (Sgt) , M113 Dvr and two wpns teams of 3 men each for dismounted ops. One with the Carl G and the other with the 50 cal. As most of what we were doing was defensive ops on REFORGER against enemy mech and armoured formations that org made sense. Can't remember working as a conventional, rifle group, C2 group type section over there (then again it was a long time ago).

So every infantry section in the company was armed with a Carl G and a .50?

Incidentally, what is the breakdown of the companies in the RCR, and when did they adopt that lettering?  With four companies to a battalion and three battalions, you wouldn't even figure at first glance they would go up to M (A,B,C,D  E,F,G,H  I,J,K,L)  - did Combat Support / Administration Company get a letter too?

 

[Michael OLeary]

From the latest edition of the Regimental Standing Orders (Interim, 2003):

"In July 1970, when the Regiment began lettering its companies in a sequential manner across all battalions, A Company became a unique subunit of the 1st Battalion. As the right flank of the 1st Battalion, it was designated "The Duke of Edinburgh's Company" on 16 July 1978."

Company designations within the Regiment are as follows, depending on the particular ORBAT in use, certain companies may be at nil strength in each battalion:

1 RCR companies are:

A Company - The Duke of Edinburgh's Company (normally refrred to as "Duke's Company")
B Company - City of London
Charles Company - City of Toronto
Delta Company - City of Ottawa
Echo Company - City of Montreal (this is the combat support company)
Foxtrot Company - Quebec City (this is the admin company)

2 RCR companies are:

Golf Company - City of Saint John
Hotel Company - City of Moncton
India Company - City of St John's
Juliet Company - City of Halifax
Kilo Company - City of Fredericton (this is the combat support company)
Lima Company - City of Charlottetown (this is the admin company)

3 RCR companies are:

Mike (Para) Company
November Company
Oscar Company
Papa Company
Quebec Company (this is the combat support company)
Romeo Company

4 RCR companies are:

Sierra Company
Tango Company

 

[Danjanou]

Michael as far as I can remember, and we're going back almost 25 years here so bear with me, yeah each section had an 84mm and of course there was a 50 cal on the M-113. Pl wpns det must have had an 84mm too, and I know they had a C5 GPMG as well as the HMG on the track and probably a 60mm mortar too. I presume the other Coys and the Van Doos were similar equipped/organized but can't say for sure. I did drag out some old photos though and it looks about right.

Considering the high armour threat it kind of makes sense. IRRC ADP Pl had 18 TOW equipped M-113s. At the time I don't thing we really had a separate Cbt Sp or Wpns Coy and each of the Rifle Coys had a Sp Wpns Pl attached to them for admin purposes. Mortars with Mike, Recce with November and ADP with Oscar. Papa was the reinforcement coy that flew over from 2RCR when I was there and I can't remember if the Assault Pioneers were â Å“attachedâ ? to them or BHQ. I do know that mortars were with Mike, because I was mortar qualified and that's why I went there. Also my in clearing/orientation was done through Oscar and my â Å“Sponsorâ ? was in ADP. (Amazing what I remember). Mind that was for admin/garrison only. On Ex the ADP Pl were broken up and attached to the Combat Teams

Normal defensive deployment was to have the M-113s in a harbour to the rear and dismount and deploy the 50 cal. On its tripod. Like I said basically half the section were with it and the other with the Carl G. A third â Å“trenchâ ? held the Sect Comd and one rifleman. C2s were I guess with each â Å“team.â ? In our section we swapped off support weapons every couple of days on Reforger So I got to hump both Carl G and Ma Duece. Lot of fun as you also had to hump your personal gear, wpn (C1/C2) and NBCD kit too.

As to the old Section Drills with the C1/C2. When I went through TQ1 Infantry in 1978 with the Seaforths we were still using the old rifle group/ gun group idea. When you got bumped the 2ic and the two C2s became the fire base and the Section Commander with the 5-6 riflemen would do a right or left flanking attack. Frontal section attacks were usually not done.

Seems to me an evolution of the old SMLE/Bren style tactics although you would be more up on that then me. BTW we also didn't pepper pot. You walked through the objective, in line abreast, stopping every couple of paces to fire a couple of shots at the shoulder when the Sect Comd yelled â Å“bullets.â ? Eventually when you got close enough to the enemy, you charged home.

Around 1979 we started learning the â Å“new PPCLIâ ? section drills. This had the section in two 4 man fire groups one commanded by the Sect Comd and the other by the 2ic, each with a C2 and divided into two man fire teams. In other words closer to what we have now. Frontal attacks using fire and movement were the norm. Hopefully Marshall will jump in here as he taught me all this in the old days when he was my Section 2ic/Sect Comd.

Funny though when I went to Nfld in 1981 and joined the 1st RNFLDR they were still using the Rifle Group/C2 Group and â Å“bulletsâ ? drills and didn't switch over to the â Å“newer drillsâ ? for about a year. Different RSS maybe?

As for Ammo, A riflemen with C1 was supposed to carry 5 20 round mags and 1 60 round bandolier (in 5 rd clips). If you had 1951 pattern Webbing you had mag pouches, 64 pattern had no pouches and you were supposed to shove them in your pockets. Most guys I knew either attached your old â Å“brenâ ? pouches from the 51 or rigged US M-14 or M-16 pouches to your belt.

C2 gunners carried 6 rd mags, 1 on the wpn, 1 in a pocket and 4 in a chest rig or bra that was uncomfortable as heck and really hard to extract mags from in the prone. I speak from experience as small guys with big mouths usually ended up with the C2. ;D

Any other old fart out there confirm this, or contradict it.

 

[marshall sl]

Let's see if I can remember. Up till 79 we did section battle drills straight out of the book as Dananjous stated. The sect was organized like this:
Rifle Group
Sect Comdr- Sgt fnc1   180 rnds 7.62 and a radio
Rifleman-Cpl /Pte   fnc1   180 rnds 7.62
Rifleman-Cpl /Pte   fnc1   180 rnds 7.62
Rifleman-Cpl /Pte   fnc1   180 rnds 7.62
Rifleman-Cpl /Pte   fnc1   180 rnds 7.62
C2 Group

Sect 2 IC   - M/Cpl fnc1   180 rnds 7.62
Rifleman-Cpl /Pte   fnc2 210 rnds 7.62
Rifleman-Cpl /Pte   fnc2 210 rnds 7.62

In reality we had M/Cpls as sect commanders and a senior Cpl as a 2IC. The Sgts were usually in the Plt WO position, WOs were CSMs . We always seemed to be short of Snr NCOs.( Yes I said NCOs not Members as is used by this so called modern army)
I never commanded a section again after completing my TQ3( Inf/sect Comdr course)and being promoted to Sgt.

In about 79 the 3rd PPCLI developed the fire team and fire and movement drills and we adopted them as our RSS were PPCLI.
The section was organized into two groupswith 4 fire teams:

Goup 1
A team:
Sect Comdr- Sgt fnc1   180 rnds 7.62 and a radio
Rifleman-Cpl /Pte   fnc1   180 rnds 7.62
B team
Rifleman-Cpl /Pte   fnc1   180 rnds 7.62
Rifleman-Cpl /Pte   fnc2 210 rnds 7.62

Group 2
C team
Sect 2 IC   - M/Cpl fnc1   180 rnds 7.62
Rifleman-Cpl /Pte   fnc1   180 rnds 7.62
D team:
Rifleman-Cpl /Pte   fnc1   180 rnds 7.62
Rifleman-Cpl /Pte   fnc2 210 rnds 7.62

During advance to contact and when recieving "Effective enemy fire"( effective meaning rounds were hitting your area or you took a casualty which we were told was the more likely. it was described as hearing CRACK   SPLAT as opposed to CRACK THUMP as a bullet went by.)we did the ole " Fire, dash,down ,crawl ,return fire. The drills progressed from there. Locate the position, win the fire fight, assault , fight thru the objective   etc. we still did flanking assaults in fact all the way up to a Coy level attack.

The only new thing was the fire and movement by fire teams.Oner fired as the other moved a short distance.This was done as a section, as a group or just as a team.. Also we were not restricted on which group did the assault.The one in the best position was given the task. The Sect/Comdr would lead it if possible.

When I went to Aldershot in 81 for my TQ3 i used these drill for my first Section attack and they failed me. The staff were all RCR and Nova Scotia Hihlanders..The attack was flawless but they told me that it was to confusing and that is I did that in battle with new recruits I would get them all killed. My reply was that they would sure as heck know the drill before we were sent to the real thing.

They gave me another shot ,so I reorganized in the classic Rifle group/ C2 group, did the advance, got bumped and put in another flawless attack. Kudos here to all the guys on course with me as they made so easy to do.But then we were all hot to trot young infantry M/Cpls :warstory:

If I missed any thing here, sorry its been   15yrs since i got out.   Any one want a history lesson give me dingle.

PS I have a bunch of pics with the FNs being used maybe when i figure out how I'll post them

 

[Kirkhill]

Gagetown in 82 they were teaching us wannabe officers to conduct the section attack with the section organized as Marshall described with the 3 man "guns" group under the 2ic and the Rifle group under the Section Commander with two men designated as  grenadiers prior to the assault.

The only significant difference that I can see is that rifle group would advance by pepper-potting, either in pairs or teams, while the gun group put down suppressive fire on the objective, firing perpendicular to the axis of advance.

As to the Crack-Thump vs Crack-Splat that Marshall refers to, I remember those lessons.  In fact as I recall it our DS informed us that we would be told WHEN we could react to enemy fire.  Effectively that meant that we were to continue following the last order until the guy in charge decided that we had taken enough hits and something different had to be done.

The DS were both PPCLI and RCR instructors.

I do remember one curious difference between "The Army of the West" and "The Army of the East".  The PPCLI instructors were forever on us for oiling our FNs too heavily.  The RCR instructors would then follow up by claiming we were oiling too lightly.

We couldn't make up our minds whether they were just being vindictive or whether it was due to the fact that the RCR generally trained in wet conditions while the PPCLI trained in dusty conditions.  General sentiment leaned towards them just being vindictive and nasty ;D.

 

[Danjanou]

Oh yeah I just loved that Army of the West vs Army of the East thing.

Like I said in less than 12 months I went from doing it the 2 fire group fire and movement method in BC to the classic rifle group Gun group on the other coast, with a stop in between in Europe using neither and the section used to hump and deploy heavy wpns. No wonder my brain hurt back then.

Marshall I know what you mean. First ex after I got to the Rock and we did the "old drills" I almost died. I was a sect 2ic and tried to teach the â Å“newâ ? ones and a crusty old RCR WO ripped me a new one. Fortunately by the time I made it to Aldershot for course (1982), they had switched over.

Kirkhill of course is was vindictive and nasty. Good WO and Sgts in Gagetown sit up all night in the Mess dreaming new ways to be vindictive and nasty to young gentlemen.   ;D

 

[marshall sl]

They aint very nice to young M/Cpls from the west coast either

 

[Danjanou]

Or Cpls, besides you were never a nice M/Cpl IIRC :

 

[marshall sl]

Sure I was, > when you and the rest of the motley crew finished working I let you sleep!! Oh and rememberi let you eat too ;D

 

[Danjanou]

Sure I was, > when you and the rest of the motley crew finished working I let you sleep!! Oh and rememberi let you eat too ;D

Did not, and you made this poor delicate soul pepper pot all over Ft Lewis too.  :'(
You're lucky you got out before I caught up in rank buddy. Another year or two and I would have been one of those mean nasty WOs

Now long time members can see why I'm so warped here. Having to work under you during my formative years in the Army.

Now that you've got me digging through old pic of FNs I guess I should post them here.

 

[marshall sl]

Well, I can't take all the credit, My first RSM later Coy Comander after he CFRed was a WW2 combat vet and the CSM was a Korean war vet( was at kapyon with a mutual friends dad. think great wall of #$%%)

I learned a lot from those 2 old soldiers.    Must have it's still stuck in my mind.Everything from Leadership to drill to the down and dirty soldier stuff :soldier:

Oh and I did'nt play favorites, you recall that my brother was right beside you in the dust, the anthills and the mud :fifty: