IAP For CFR's

[BF1]

I'm sorry, I'm not falling for your self righteous indignation (as prosically worded as it is)

Yes, I hold cap badges, medals, qualification badges, collar dogs, buttons, buckles, belts, keepers, and stitches to be trinkets.  I guess I foolishly expect my deportment to indicate my levels of dedication and professionalism; I don't need to wear my UER on my uniform to feel like a soldier and I don't require a prettily decorated uniform for others to treat me as same. 

I do, however, consider professionalism, dedication, and esprit de corps in very high regard.  I hold the ability to lead by example and not with a volley of paperwork in very high regard.  I hold the ability to perform any task set before the individual without whining on the Internet about how it was a crime against his very being because he already did something pretty close to it before in very high regard.  I hold the willingness to perform a duty that is good enough for everyone else as though it's good enough for the person who's too good for it in very high regard.

While I'd love to let your red herring fade away, I suspect you're like a terrier with someone else's bone.  Honours have a time and place and are of an important cultural and symbolic nature to the CF.  Do I hold them in as high regard as most?  I suspect not as I'm willing to forego them in the name of getting a ******* job done quickly and without whining. If you think long and hard about this, you'll realize that we in the army suspend several practices for convenience, operational requirements, or both.  If not wearing one's medals or a cap badge is a make-or-break moment in an individual's career, there's a bigger problem.

Now, to forego any further indignation on your behalf, I'll address a point you should have already formed.  Since I seem to hold medals in such low esteem, given the opportunity to endorse a deserving individual awards for conspicuous behaviour in the face of the adversity, would I? 

In '93 I commissioned from Arty WO to Int OCdt. As far as doing BOTC with all the kids getting ready to go to RMC it wasn't a big deal.  I do have a question for Shamrock though: did someone actually order you not to wear your medals or ribbons?

 

[Michael OLeary]

So why then does a remuster retain the right to wear his hard-earned capbadge until he is presented with his new trade cap badge?? Unlike the other pers on his 3s -- he is NOT in a cornflake because he does hold a trade qualification.

But a Component Transfer who goes off to basic training (as either officer or NCM) does not, and I would suggest that that is a better analogy than remuster.

 

[Michael OLeary]

By training them up sooner, and having them work under the supervision of more senior officers, our more "junior" officer with previous service may turn out to be better officers in the long run without having to redo BOTC. That is my opinion. You may disagree. In fact some of you probably will. However, having to redo basic, and be taught how to do hospital corners, how to shine your boots for people with any TI above 3 years is kind of pointless. IAP is not needed for anyone whose completed BMQ. If they've been assessed ready by both their CoC and the PSO... I think they're good to go... don't you?

Do you honestly think that basic officer training consists of nothing more than "be[ing] taught how to do hospital corners, [and] how to shine your boots".  There are also the aspects of giving the new officer a chance to join his/her new peer group, and a chance to stand back and take the opportunity to start seeing how they may want to change their leadership technique from that learned on the PLQ/ILQ to one more suited to their new appointments and responsibilities.  It's a learning opportunity for much more than simply making beds, ironing and shining boots.

 

[medaid]

Some would argue quite the opposite.  With their experience, they can mentor their peers.  They can show initiative and coursemanship in passing on some of their experience to their new coursemates.  Their knowledge and experience can help foster "Teamwork".  In the eyes of the Training System, this would be beneficial in that it takes some of the load off the Instructors and Staff.  It would also free up some of the Staff from constantly having to monitor the course 24 and 7.

There is most definitely that. I am by no means correct just presenting my own point of view on things. Of course I'm doing it all over again, and will do it wit the utmost enthusiasm required of me ;D It won't be that bad.

Do you honestly think that basic officer training consists of nothing more than "be[ing] taught how to do hospital corners, [and] how to shine your boots".  There are also the aspects of giving the new officer a chance to join his/her new peer group, and a chance to stand back and take the opportunity to start seeing how they may want to change their leadership technique from that learned on the PLQ/ILQ to one more suited to their new appointments and responsibilities.  It's a learning opportunity for much more than simply making beds, ironing and shining boots.

Sometimes I do, and I know I'm mistaken in that belief but at the same time, they will be joined in their peers and integration at their MOC course level as well. I do agree with both you and George, but merely presenting my point of view as stated.

 

[exgunnertdo]

I might suggest a correction to the title of this thread?  "CFR" is Commissioning From the Ranks" - a specific program for Snr NCOs and WOs with specific parameters - for example an experienced WO is Commissioned to the rank of (I believe) Lt, in the same occupation (Arty WO to Arty Offr).  I don't think CFRs do IAP/BOTP in any circumstance...There's another course for that, the name of which escapes me.

I think what people are referring to is the other in-service commissioning plans - UTPNCM, CEOTP, SCP and others which are not CFR.

There is a matrix for equivalencies and it's pretty clear - PLQ (not sure what version) gets you IAP written off, SLC gets you BOTP written off.

There is also PLAR - Prior Learning Assessment Request.  If a member really feels that even though they are missing the above quals, they do not require the training, they are welcome to submit a PLAR.  You have to go through the training you are requesting a write-off for and outline, PO by PO, what in your previous experience should make the training redundant.  But you can't just say "I've got 10 years in and a tour, I know this stuff already."  You need to do your research and write it up.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

I think this has snow-balled a wee bit. The objection is to the IAP phase of the BMOQ, the BOTP was extremely beneficial, as was previously said this is where the leadership portions are taught. The IAP course is 9 weeks of recruit training, a trip to the War Museum, A trip to a cemetary, and 1 week of in routine. This is an issue admitted by the instructors.  As for money lets say 60 CFR's about 30 were CPL 4 (578,640) and 10 Mcpl/Sgt (200,000) so really is this an effective way to spend a million dolloars or have de-centralized BOTP srls run (CFB Esquimalt is geared up to run them at NOTC Venture as are other bases I'm sure) and have these mbrs to Phase trg sooner, as it is most of us (and this includes off the street types too) will not be field employable for over 24 months.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

A few points if I may.

1.  NCMs who have completed a PLQ are not 'normally' required to do IAP.  Makes sense, you would have enough T.I. and MOC training upon completion of PLQ, and have enough ppl think you are a 'rising star' to actually course load you for PLQ, or in some cases, promote you to A/L MCpl/MS and then course you.  Right?  If you took an Jnr Ldrship course "way back when" (i.e. JLC, CLC or one of the JNCO (OAS)/Army Jnr NCO courses) and they don't recognize it as PLQ, then I suggest you request a PLQ equivalency thru CDA.  IntraNet link for PLQ Equiv below:

http://cda.mil.ca/dlm/engraph/services/accred/milequiv/plq_e.asp

2.  NCMs who have completed ILQ are not 'normally' required to complete BOTP and potentially will bypass BMOQ complete.  Again, if you took an older SLC course, then you can request ILQ equivalency thru CDA once again.  IntraNet link for ILQ Equiv is below:

http://cda.mil.ca/dlm/engraph/services/accred/milequiv/ilq_e.asp

3.  For info on all equivalencies that may be sought thru CDA, please see IntraNet link below.  Note, there is a link there for BMOQ as well, for those so inclined.

http://cda.mil.ca/dlm/engraph/services/accred/milequiv/milequiv_e.asp

4.  WRT the issue of the capbadge and such:  AFAIK, when you go from the NCM rank to the Subordinate Officer world that is the life of an OCdt, you 'change hats'.  And with that 'change', does your MOC/MOSID not also change?  And, in that new MOC/MOSID, what qualification do you hold in THAT one?  I would bet...nadda.  So, in essence, you are wearing the capbadge of your current qualification level.   ;D

Now, from my time as an Instr at CFLRS, depending on the Div you were in, your Div OC, DSM, Course O and WO, which direction the wind was blowing and the ambient temperature of the male bathroom in the Bistro, all of these factors came into play WRT the "CFRs" being allowed to wear their capbadges.  If a Supp Tech was CFRing to Log O, then they usually were allowed to wear it, as an example.  But if the Supp Tech was going Armour O, then...forget it.  So...'military common sense' applied.

As for the 'why do we have to redo this training' stuff...well, someone who makes decisions, based on policy currently in place, decided that it was the way to do business.  If you 'know it all already' then...shouldn't it be rather easy to...perform to your best, lead by example, EDI and ICEPAC?  If you don't know what I am talking about then maybe you should be on IAP  ;D.

Just because you 'did this trng before' doesn't mean there is no legitimate military requirement to redo it.

Someone mentioned even playing field.  I will go further.

Some of the process is simply to remove, the chip off people shoulders that HAVE served before.  Yes, you served and I will guess served well, or your CoC and CM would likely have squashed your application, or your conduct sheet would have eliminated you from the competition, PERs, etc.  However, going from the NCM world to the Subordinate and Junior Officer world requires changes in the way you think, the people you work with, and it takes time for most to 'let go' of their "NCO ways".

BMOQ consists of...IAP and BOTP portions.  IF the people that assessed your file determined you were trained enough to bypass either of those portions, IAW current policy, you would have.

I would suggest that the suggestions to revamp the current trng courses and invent new ones "for CFR types" is an idea that would not float.  There is already a process in place;  you didn't meet the criteria for a IAP or BOTP (which would bypass you BMOQ) bypass.

My question is...why not use the time to the way the system wants you to?  If you thing CFLRS is hard...CAP is waiting.  Now, I challenge you to look at the POSITIVE things you will take out of repeating this trng ( as a different MOC ), and spend as much time on that as you have finding the NEGATIVE things.  

I think its time to Ruck Up and get on with it.  

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I believe that making anyone redo their basic, while they are still a serving member of the CF regardless of component is a waste of money and time on both the CF and the individual in question.

But, if the person's got PLQ, ILQ or what ever other forms of leadership, is it really pertinent to send them on IAP/BOTP = BOTC all over again? No. It is a waste of time and opportunity. The sooner we get some of these pers trained up the better off we as an organization shall be. If we think that we will not be hit by the retiring frenzy that is currently hitting the civilian job market, we are kidding ourselves. The more experience we give to the up and coming leaders regardless of rank, will only further our own cause of creating a stronger CF.

However, having to redo basic, and be taught how to do hospital corners, how to shine your boots for people with any TI above 3 years is kind of pointless. IAP is not needed for anyone whose completed BMQ. If they've been assessed ready by both their CoC and the PSO... I think they're good to go... don't you?

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

Doesn't what I bolded contradict what you said about it not being required?  IAP and BOTP IS experience and they ARE up and coming leaders.  :

There is a huge differenc between IAP and BMQ.  Period.  Do you even know what IAP stands for?  Perhaps you should get the TPs of both courses from the CFLRS website if you can, or better yet, go to St-Jean and ask around the Bullpens in the Div's what the differenc between IAP and BMQ is.

The PSO does an interview only.  Jesus.  Put the cap back on the glue stick.

And ref their CoC assessing them...so if a, lets say, NCI Op Leading Seamen from a CPF in Halifax goes for UTPNCM as a Infantry Officer, his "CoC" has properly assessed him?

: 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Some would argue quite the opposite.  With their experience, they can mentor their peers.  They can show initiative and coursemanship in passing on some of their experience to their new coursemates.  Their knowledge and experience can help foster "Teamwork".  In the eyes of the Training System, this would be beneficial in that it takes some of the load off the Instructors and Staff.  It would also free up some of the Staff from constantly having to monitor the course 24 and 7.

EXACTLY!

Which is part of the point. 

Now, I know this is a book but did anyone read Red Storm Rising?  When the Cat A units were being hauled off the frontline, some of the veteran Officers and NCOs were sent to the rear to merry-up with the Cat C Reserve units, to pass on their experience and strengthen them as a fighting force...same principle here.

 

[CFFB]

While I must respect the opinion that those from the ranks will be an asset to the course, I doubt that this was the intention of putting people on the course.  Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but there must be the odd course that goes through without those with previous service. 

On a side note, for those that already went through, how did you find being on the course having come from within the forces?  Did it make it more difficult on you or did you manage to just do the course and carry on?

 

[George Wallace]

While I must respect the opinion that those from the ranks will be an asset to the course, I doubt that this was the intention of putting people on the course.  Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but there must be the odd course that goes through without those with previous service. 

While I must also respect your opinion, what makes you think that the Training Systems people did not intend on using this method of instruction as part of their training philosophy?  Seems like a simple and common sense side benefit that aids in the mentoring of new candidates which is next to cost free.

 

[George Wallace]

I do have a question.  Are some "dinosaurs" now going on IAP, who think that an "old Dog can't be taught new tricks?"

 

[Eye In The Sky]

While I must respect the opinion that those from the ranks will be an asset to the course, I doubt that this was the intention of putting people on the course.  Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but there must be the odd course that goes through without those with previous service. 

On a side note, for those that already went through, how did you find being on the course having come from within the forces?  Did it make it more difficult on you or did you manage to just do the course and carry on?

Granted, not the main reason, but definitely a benefit and one "people on the ground" at CFLRS can see the tangible results from. 

A friend of mine who went from Cmbt Arms NCO to Cmbt Arms Officer said to me "it was like prison.  you just bite the pillow, grin and bear it and then try to forget about it when its over".  He had PLQ so he arrived to partake in, and enjoy the BOTP only.

;D

 

[X-mo-1979]

Don't you remember getting TCCCS?
A lot of dinosaurs still can't be taught that.

Personally If I was getting my commission,full TD,and education they could make me wear what ever the hell they wanted.
And unless your CFR'ing to an officer of the same trade,are you really that attached to your old capbadge?
Do a officer cadet with a capbadge get paid more?If that was the case I would fight to keep it.However I don't think that's the case is it.

Full TD,getting taught absolutely nothing.Therefore no studying at night,no stress at all and moving forward to your commission.
WTF is your issue?

 

[CFFB]

While I must also respect your opinion, what makes you think that the Training Systems people did not intend on using this method of instruction as part of their training philosophy?  Seems like a simple and common sense side benefit that aids in the mentoring of new candidates which is next to cost free.

Very good point.  I always think the worst of people/agencies when it comes to how the planning process works.  Too much time seeing some people in the forces dealing with things much to quickly, and without a lot of thought.  

On the otherhand, good policies have come out of Ottawa as well.  

I do have a question.   Are some "dinosaurs" now going on IAP, who think that an "old Dog can't be taught new tricks?"

I'm far from being a dinosaur, I've been in 10 years and feel like a FNG at least one day of the week.  

 

[George Wallace]

......  I always think the worst of people/agencies when it comes to how the planning process works.  Too much time seeing some people in the forces dealing with things much to quickly, and without a lot of thought.  

Yea.  I know.  An urge that we all have to fight and not become too pessimistic.  'Still trying to look on the 'Bright Side of Life'. 

 

[medaid]

'Still trying to look on the 'Bright Side of Life'. 

There isn't a brighter side of life mate... :'( there's only the gray side... and the grayer side... and some times they fuse and become.... um a medium grayish hue...

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Yea.  I know.  An urge that we all have to fight and not become too pessimistic.  'Still trying to look on the 'Bright Side of Life'.   

Bright Side of Life   ;D

 

[Rowshambow]

I just did this and just got back from St J almost 2 weeks ago, so here is my input!

We had 36 people on my BOTP, 29 of them were some type of CFR (ceotp, scp, cfr) We had people who were plq cpl's, 2 WO chief Clerks! There were also a number of Mcpl's and Sgt's (myself being the latter) I didn't learn anything, in fact because of my experience's, I would often help others that were having problems with mission analysis (as some never seen it having done jlc so long ago) We all wore cf cap badge (even though we fought it) we were in A div, some of the other divs wore their previous trades badges! Also I had a friend who was a MCpl and just came back from the dust bowl, and he had to do IAP and BOTP, not sure why? Myself and another ex Sgt in my section asked why we had to do it, and we were told that because the PSO didn't do a PLAR we had to do the course, the course WO then told all of us, "that if a PLAR had of been done almost all of us would not of had to do the course, and the school policy is that once you are there, you do the course regardless, so enjoy the course"
It was 7 weeks of my life I will never get back, the cap badge thing, well it just felt wrong, yes i was qualified in my old trade and only have to do my Tp Ldr course, so at the very least I should have been wearing the Armoured fist!
We were also told that in the new year they are coming out with some new regulations regarding this and if you have a plq you won't have to do the course, maybe there is someone else on here with more info about that, as I just heard we (in Alberta) are getting PLD, so the info in St J didn't flow as freely to us as we would have liked to!
In MY opinion, I think it was a waste of money, time and resources! As for the "getting to know my new peers", I will never see these people again, and won't really see my peers until phase 4 or phase 3 if I had to do it!

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

rowshanbow, I was in B div, we not only lost the branch brass (not the concern) we lost all capbadges full stop, and you're right I spent alot of time on the phone with the kids (missing all 3 birthdays for the 5th year in a row) and helping everyone out. It's not that we thought we were better than anybody, but bite the pillow and take we did. (PS I think we might have attacked you guys by mistake on Vimy)