How the Rifles (UK) Spell "Serjeant"

[The Bread Guy]

I spotted (what I thought was) a typo in this announcement about the latest British fallen in AFG:
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/SjtChrisReedOf6RiflesKilledInAfghanistan.htm

and emailed public affairs re:  the spelling of "Serjeant".  Got a quick and polite response to this effect:

For Note: The Rifles spell sergeant with a J not a G, this comes from their involvement during the Napoleonic wars hence the spelling 'Serjeant'

First I've heard of the convention - thought I'd share it.

 

[Old Sweat]

Both spellings are in the Concise Oxford Dictionary. When researching my book on Totalize, I found the history of 1 Northamptonshire Yeomanry used the j version.

 

[geo]

Seen many signs in various Canadian armouries.  The signs, which date back to WW2 or prior, use the ''J'' in their spelling of Sergeant.  And this has (or had) nothing to do with the Yeomanry or Rifles....  Though the Rifles may have ''chosen'' to retain the old archaic spelling

 

[Rifleman62]

The Rifles also call their Staff Serjeants, Color Serjeants even though Rifle Regiments do not carry colours. Employed in a rifle coy, the Colour Serjeant is the CQMS and is called "the Colour Boy"
Prior to WWI, our regiment also had Colour Serjeants. Do not know when this was discontinued.
I spent several weeks with a Royal Tank Regiment Battle Group, with 2 coys of 3 RGJ during a Medicine Man roto in 1984. Live fire night tank ambush using Milan with 81mm illumination, Bangalore torpedo demo were impressive. Also the first siting of a rattle snake in the coy leaguer.

 

[geo]

Oxford dictionary says serjeant is a variant of serjeant, and says sergeant is Middle English.

And from our friends in Wikipedia....

The spelling serjeant is sometimes seen. This was in fact the official spelling, even during and after World War I – though interestingly not in the Royal Air Force – and appeared in such publications as King's Regulations and the Pay Warrant, which defined the various ranks. In common usage the modern spelling sergeant was already more usual, as for instance in the volumes of the Official History which began to appear in the 1920s. Serjeant-at-Arms is a title still held by members of the security staff in the Houses of Parliament. Also, in the newly-amalgamated infantry regiment The Rifles, the spelling of Serjeant is held with the 'J' in place of the 'G'[1]. This is currently the only British Army regiment using the alternate spelling.

 

[The Bread Guy]

In my limited military service, the only Rifle Regiment folks I knew and worked with (Regina and Winnipeg) spelled it with a "G" - anyone know of any CAN units who do it this way?

 

[kkwd]

I have a Great War Military Medal group to a Canadian gunner and his rank is abbreviated as SJT.

 

[Old Sweat]

My Field Service Pocket Book 1914 has the following in the table of abbreviations: Sjt .. .. .. Serjeant. Serjeant is also used in Infantry Training Part V: The Carrier Platoon, 1943.

However several Boer War era books use sergeant.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

My Field Service Pocket Book 1914 has the following in the table of abbreviations: Sjt .. .. .. Serjeant. Serjeant is also used in Infantry Training Part V: The Carrier Platoon, 1943.

However several Boer War era books use sergeant.

Geez next you will haul out your parchment papers with the rank structure on it ......

;D

Sry OS couldn't resist

:cheers:

 

[kkwd]

I bet he has a fine collection of military manuals. I have one myself concerning de-lousing where they are spraying DDT up soldiers sleeves.

 

[exspy]

With regard to the use of the term Colour Sergeant, all Staff Sergeants in British infantry units and in the Royal Marines are called Colour Sergeants.  The lower ranks address them as 'Colour', like calling a Staff Sergeant 'Staff'.

I have never, ever heard of the term 'Colour Boy' before, even in jest.

I did once read of an artillery sergeant appointment that I'd never heard before.  It went something like "a good tara sergeant always has a pot of coffee on the stove" or some such.  I always figured it was an administrative designation, the artillery living in their own world as it were.

Dan.

 

[Hogie]

All this talk reminds me of one of my favourite British TV shows, Sharpe's Rifles....I reccommend it for history buffs and fans of Sean Bean, like myself!  ;D  The males might prefer his weekly female conquests however (one was Elizabeth Hurley before she was famous).  You can see clips on YouTube and buy the whole thing on Amazon.ca.

Otherwise I enjoy the discussions of the evolution (or devolution) of English military terms, the etymology and history behind the spellings, and how some ancient spellings are retained to this day.  Neat stuff.  Now home to watch episode 2 of Sharpe!

 

[Old Sweat]

TARA, not tara, was the acronym for Technical Assistant, Royal (Canadian) Artillery. It was replaced by the present Artillery Technician and was usually called Tech Assist. I know, 'cause I were one once upon a time.

My Field Service Pocket Book has Officer Cadet Haig written on the cover.

 

[Blackadder1916]

The spelling of Serg(j)eant has also occupied discussion on a few other threads in the past as well.

Wes

Yes, as you have discovered CSJT is the abbrieviation for Colour Serjeant, it is used by the RIFLES and previously by the Light Infantry prior to the mass amalgamations of LI, RGJ, D and D and RGBW we had this year (oh and it's been that way since before WW1).  The rest of the British Infantry and Royal Marines have CSGT's, the remainder of the Army has SSGT's except the Household Cavalry who have SCPL's, so in a way we have uniquely held onto the old way of spelling it.
. . .

Hello, I hope you will not mind me jumping into this thread as an outsider but I am a retired member of the British Army and perhaps I can clarify one or two points on our rank structure which are causing a certain amount of confusion.  .  .  .

Serjeant (correct spelling for my battalion) and Colour Serjeant were both promotions and Csjts were normally the CQMSs.  Above that is WO2 and WO1, WO2s were Company Serjeant Majors and WO1s Regimental Serjeant Majors, both appointments.  . . .

What made them switch from spelling Sgt with a "J" to that of a "G"? - I noticed all pre-WW2 ranks were of the J variety.

I guess Serjeant was considered archaic, kind of a holdover from Middle English or Old English or something...kind of like on old documents where the "f" looking character was actually an 's'....I think the 48th Highlanders excellent history 'Dileas' by Kim Beattie perpetuated the spelling of Serjeant with a j even though it was published after the war, but I think officially the j version was done away with either during the Second World War or shortly thereafter.  Either spelling was correct during WW II and you see examples of both in period documents.

 

[daftandbarmy]

With regard to the use of the term Colour Sergeant, all Staff Sergeants in British infantry units and in the Royal Marines are called Colour Sergeants.  The lower ranks address them as 'Colour', like calling a Staff Sergeant 'Staff'.

I have never, ever heard of the term 'Colour Boy' before, even in jest.

I have heard 'Colour Man' and 'Colour Bloke' and, in the Royal Marines when addressing the CQ directly, 'Colours' (plural for some bizarre reason). I'm pretty sure that if I called my CQ in 1PARA 'Colour Boy' I'd just about have made it to the armoury door before being run through with his coffee spoon.

 

[Rifleman62]

You are correct. The CQMS was called "the colour boy" by the CSM, but addressed as Colour, Colour Serjeant depending on the rank of the soldier/officer.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You are correct. the CQMS was called "the colour boy" by the CSM, but addressed as Colours, Colour Serjeant depending on the rank of the soldier/officer.

Aha, that makes sense. And I do remember seeing the 'J' spelling with rifle regiment NCOs I was beasted trained by at RMAS and PCBC.

I alway added 'please' to the term 'Colour'. It helped alot...

Interesting deviation from the 'Staff' rule: All the Pl NCOs at Sandhurst were CSgts from infantry units, but are addressed by the cadets as 'Staff'. As in 'How high Staff!!?'