Holk's Hi-Jack, split from Re: National Strategy for Victory in Iraq

[George Wallace]

Iraqi's are not unless you can provide some other evidence that that do,do not want the US in their country,they know why the US invaded their country and they will not accept them,even getting rid of Saddam isn't enough.
Besides Iraq isn't a threat to anyone,if they do become dangerous,the US with a credible coalition can then go back in and fight them.
The US has no moral ground at all.
This was/is all about increasing the US empire,not something Just,like it is in the case with Afghanistan or Japan and Germany.

If the same situation happened to us as what has happened to Iraq we wouldn't put up with what the US is doing now either.

Imagine the uproar there would have been if the French stayed in America and dictated how Americans should live after they helped them to defeat the British.

What kind of bull hockey is this?


No thought of the French and Russian Oil interests in Iraq?  Petro Fina?  German chemical companies.  Not too many American outfits with interests in that country.....when you start to look at them......so I really don't see your warped point of view.  Actually.......;you are posting quite like a child would..................................More Research!

 

[48Highlander]

This was/is all about increasing the US empire,not something Just,like it is in the case with Afghanistan or Japan and Germany.

Man, didn't you hear?  The US "neocons" ALLOWED pearl harbour to happen so they'd have an excuse to join the war!  Yeah, there's some connection with minisubs and stuff, you should read up on it. It was all about expanding their empire into Europe.  That's why they still have bases in Germany!

Or wait, no, it was about oppressing the workers by fighting communism!  They wanted us all to be slavesto the corporofaschist capitalism machine!  The USSR could have ussered in a new peacefullage of equality and hugs and flowers, but those evil neocons made it fail by getting the CIA to sell Cocaine to Cuba. Or something like that.  It was right about the time they faked the moon landing to make communists look bad.

And EVERY major conflict they go into is just about resources!  Vietnam was about...well, ok, dunno about that one, we were too stoned in between protests to figure it out.  But Kosovo was about mineral rights!  Afghanistan was about building a pipeline!  And ofcourse, Iraq's all about oil.  Everyone knows it.  If Michael Moore says it, it's GOT to be true!

Imagine the uproar there would have been if the French stayed in America and dictated how Americans should live after they helped them to defeat the British.

Oh you mean the way we're doing in Bosnia?  And Afghanistan?

Has someone been slipping halucinogenic chemicals into your pot?

 

[Holk]

You're too goddamn stupid and unaware to understand what's going on around you you dumbf$!&.
I could expain it to you,but I can't comprehend it for you.

I do understand your retoric though...

USA Good!!! Everyone else BAAAAAD!
USA Good!!! Everyone else BAAAAAD!

Me thinks I'm a big tough American,I'm better than all you Canadians,Me so STROOOONG.

 

[TCBF]

"Imagine the uproar there would have been if the French stayed in America and dictated how Americans should live after they helped them to defeat the British.'

- None.  I mean, they stayed in Canada and are dictating to Canadians,right?

Tom

 

[Holk]

LOL!

And then maybe french fries would have been named "Freedom fries" sooner.

 

[George Wallace]

You're too goddamn stupid and unaware to understand what's going on around you you dumbf$!&.
I could expain it to you,but I can't comprehend it for you.

I do understand your retoric though...

USA Good!!! Everyone else BAAAAAD!
USA Good!!! Everyone else BAAAAAD!

Me thinks I'm a big tough American,I'm better than all you Canadians,Me so STROOOONG.

As opposed to what?

We do comprehend what is going on around us and can't figure out where the heck you have been hiding so deep in the woods, protecting trees or something, that you have no clue of what is really going on in the world?

We also understand your Leftist rhetoric:

USA is Bad!!! USA is Imperialistic War Mongering Empire Building Capitalistic State out for World Domination!!!!!!
USA is Bad!!! USA is Imperialistic War Mongering Empire Building Capitalistic State out for World Domination!!!!!!

We think you are Anti-American Dope Smoking Tree Hugger Anarchist from the Back Woods, Soooo High you live in a Fantasy Land.  We'll call it La La Land.

Actually, we think you are a fifteen year old trolling this forum.  We don't take kindly to Trolls.  Their bridges are soon blown and they soon have no place to hide. 

So we will lay down some covering fire now and allow the Cbt Engrs to do their 'thang'.  ;D

 

[meni0n]

Holk, so when was the last time you did something good in the world instead of whining about some conspiracy?

 

[Holk]

Whatever,I've been on other forums and the "I'd die for America" crowd,well you guys just can't be reasoned with. :brickwall:

I give up.

Good old Dubya, Went into Iraq there see,and saved us all from that damn dangerous Saddam Hussein who wanted to poison us with all his WMD's that he was giving to Al Qaeda and all the other terrorist groups in the world see,and now we don't talk about finding no WMD's or links to Al Qaeda because now the case is we saved a people from it's tyrant and the US hasn't killed more Iraqi's than Saddam killed annually,NO,NO,NO,Say it we're fighting for FREEDOM!!

Oil? hmmm... yes there's oil,but what are you accusing us of you Liberal,Al Qaeda freedom hating cowards?
Just say this again..FREEDOM!!


There Am I SANE now?

 

[PPCLI MCpl]

Holk, before I respond to your granola munching post-academic rants, I would ask that you fill out your profile to enlighten us as to who we are dealing with.  If not, please remove the Red Ensign from your Avatar, because that is a symbol of a nation you have no clue about.

 

[Holk]

I already explained myself earlier look it up.

I'm Canadian,you prove that you are.

And I'm sick of this BS about me being some hippie(not that I have much against them) I shave my beard and I read lots of books about war.So F off!

 

[PPCLI MCpl]

  I shave my beard and I read lots of books about war.So F off!

Good for you.  Notice I have never resorted to profanity or attacks regarding your personal appearance.  And I sifted through your 13 posts, and cannot find anything that resembles an explanation.

I have also read many books about war, and have been to war, and ponder endlessly about war.

What exactly are you trying to say, and how do you intend to back up your claims?

 

[a_majoor]

from: Holk on Today at 01:05:13]
Good old Dubya, Went into Iraq there see,and saved us all from that damn dangerous Saddam Hussein who wanted to poison us with all his WMD's that he was giving to Al Qaeda and all the other terrorist groups in the world see,and now we don't talk about finding no WMD's or links to Al Qaeda because now the case is we saved a people from it's tyrant and the US hasn't killed more Iraqi's than Saddam killed annually,NO,NO,NO,Say it we're fighting for FREEDOM!!

WMD was only one of the many and varied arguments for going to war against Iraq, and of course that neo-con giant, Bill Clinton, made speeches warning us all of the danger of Saddam Husseain's WMD program as far back as 1998. However, if we just confine ourselves to the arguments about WMD, it is an indisputable fact that the Iraqis used WMD (in the form of chemical weapons) against the Iranians and their own Kurdish population, openly threatened their use in both the Perian Gulf war and OIF, and in the period between 1991 and 2003, spent vast sums of money and effort engaging in activities that looked like WMD programs to the intelligence agencies of Germany, France the UK and the United States (I won't presume to speak for the Intelligence organs of nations that don't share their data with us). Based on that evidence, there was lots of reasons to believe there was an active WMD program with stockpiles of chemical weapons.

Since the United States and the coalition had trounced Iraq in 1991 and was in a position (with an economic embargo and enforced "no fly" zones) to prevent Saddam Hussein from using conventional means to deploy such weapons, it was also quite reasonabel to assume the Iraqis would look to other means. Iraq was also known as a large and open sponsor of terrorist organizations, and there were known contacts between the Iraqis and Al Qaeda, although the extent of their collaberation is still in dispute. No doubt as more documents get translated and other intelligence sources are analysed, things will come into sharper focus. Combine these two facts, and you would have to find very compelling counter evidence to say there was NOT a clear and present danger based on what was known between 2001 and the start of OIF.

The other many and varied provocations the Iraqis offered which either individually or collectively could be taken as a pretext for war I will leave you to reserch, Mr Holk, since you are currently fighting a battle of wits completely unarmed.

 

[Infanteer]

So F off!

All right, cool it Maverick.  I told you to watch your caustic posting a while back and you ignored it, so now you get an introduction to the warning track.

As to your claim of pulling out; should we also pull out of Afghanistan as well, since that is nothing but a US oil grab too (big money in Central Asian gas)?  Since you've read so many warbooks, tell me what happened in Saigon in 1975.

America is about Corporations and Canada is the True North Strong and Free?  Man, I need some of whatever you are smoking.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

"Lemme guess, you also think that the CIA assassinated Kennedy too?"

- I'm, myself, partial to the Secret Service guy with the AR-15 resting on the windshield of the convertible chase car having an ND.

Tom

They had a whole book about that, didn't they?  I think Gerald Posner's book CASE CLOSED is still the best, but I've read a lot of the whackier conspiracy books - Lifton's for example, and Garrison's ON THE TRAIL OF THE ASSASSINS.  The ND book I never got to read.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

All right, cool it Maverick.  I told you to watch your caustic posting a while back and you ignored it, so now you get an introduction to the warning track.

As to your claim of pulling out; should we also pull out of Afghanistan as well, since that is nothing but a US oil grab too (big money in Central Asian gas)?  Since you've read so many warbooks, tell me what happened in Saigon in 1975.

America is about Corporations and Canada is the True North Strong and Free?  Man, I need some of whatever you are smoking.

Infanteer, don't you get tired of this old game of baiting newcomers into getting warned?  Go back and read the first page of this thread again.  You didn't offer a single substantive point, and neither did 48th Highlander; all you did was give a bunch of attitude and sarcastic comments, and implied the original poster didn't know what he was talking about.  I'm serious, go back and re-read it.  And then you act all surprised when the guy gets pissed.  :

So why not step down from your high horse from a second and respond to some of the points he made - if the US is so concerned about the welfare of the Iraqis, why not pull out and let a multi-national force with a UN mandate take over?  I have a pretty good idea why that can't be done, but that's one of the things you never bothered to address.

Maybe addressing the points raised instead of reacting to what type of person you think is posting would reduce your burden as a moderator; you really create your own problems with that besserwisserei attitude.  A little more actual conversation and a little less ad hominem goes a long way; and don't pretend "he started it", you've become a master at pushing people into a corner.

If you really feel you're so much more informed and enlightened than him, why not reveal it by posting what you know, instead of the "nyah nyay I know something you don't" posts?  ???

 

[Infanteer]

Infanteer, don't you get tired of this old game of baiting newcomers into getting warned?

That's why we miss you so much as moderator around here - you have everything down pat and yet even when you were a mod, you rarely decided to use your talent for anything except criticising the rest of us trying to do some work around here; something that hasn't changed with your new role as public defender I see....

If you would have bothered to read the thread instead of just coming here to take a shot at me (as per the course) you would have noticed that I gave a reply that was probably at a proportionate level to what he has supplied:

To imply that the only thing keeping Al Qa'ida strong in Iraq is the American presence is foolish.  Much of the hardcore element of the Sunni minority sees the Shi'ites as a legitimate enemy (a tenet a Salafist thought) and sees a democratic government as a Shi'ite apostate government propped up by America.

Have you been watching the news?  For every attack on American soldier there are 3 attacks on other Iraqis.

Reading into this will clearly underline my rebuttal.  If he wanted "Infanteer's detailed synopsis of Iraq", he could have searched for the last 2,564,635 debates on the US in Iraq - most of which I've stated my case in no small detail.  Instead, we get 13 posts of anti-Bush crap and pretty caustic responses (starting with the "American suckups and wannabes" remark).  I was serious in my "cool the jets" statement; an empty profile and 13 posts that just play the tired old line of "Bush lied" really doesn't indicate a desire to be a contributing member here.

 

[Holk]

When the hell did I ever say anything about pulling out of Afghanistan?

I'm waiting.

A_Majoor,
Bush and Cheney are oil men and have used the attacks as an excuse to get oil for US oil companies.

Watch this documentry about Cheney

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/video_player.html?Cheney

He had people fired from the Pentagon who knew there was no evidence of Saddam being a threat.

 

[Holk]

Infanteer,
I agree with the US and NATO's presence in Afghanistan,even though Bush and Cheney were more concerned about bringing in an ex-UNOCAL executive to run the country and get their pipeline to run through the country than doing everything possible to capture Bin Laden(Damn that commie liberal Micheal Moore for finding that out!)
I guess they needed Bin Laden loose to keep Americans still scared to make their case against Saddam.

Afghanistan can't be allowed to be run by the Taliban again,or it could again be used as a training and operating facilty for Al Qaeda once again.

 

[Roy Harding]

When the hell did I ever say anything about pulling out of Afghanistan?

I'm waiting.

A_Majoor,
Bush and Cheney are oil men and have used the attacks as an excuse to get oil for US oil companies.

Watch this documentry about Cheney

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/video_player.html?Cheney

He had people fired from the Pentagon who knew there was no evidence of Saddam being a threat.

Holk,

I've re-read this whole thread - I didn't see anyone accusing you of advocating pulling out of Afghanistan.  I did see someone (I believe it was Infanteer) asking a rhetorical question in that regard.

I don't say a lot on these forums, I try to confine myself to answering technical questions which are within my bounds.  But I gotta say it, You, my son (or daughter) are WAY outside your lane.

Please fill in your profile - try to be as truthful as you can.  I don't believe in anonymous BS, ANYWHERE - if you believe in what you say, then say it and stand behind it.  My history is there in my profile - it ain't much - but I suspect I've spent a whack more time in uniform and deployed than you've been out of diapers.

Try bringing the level of rhetoric down a bit - the majority of members here are thoughtful, intelligent, and experienced people who will be glad to engage in intelligent debate with you, and are often fun and witty, to boot!

You won't listen, but I had to say it anyway.

 

[Holk]

Ya right,most here it would appear don't want the facts,only to find excuses to validate for war no matter what the reason.

Sun Tzu said it best,the best soldiers are the ones who are non-violent.

I'll be an asshole all I want here,thank you very much.

No I never served in the forces for medical reasons,I did want to join PPCLI then the Airborne Regiment.
The only military service if you call it that was 5 years in the Air Cadets,I finished as a Sgt.