HMNZS Manawanui has Sunk!

[daftandbarmy]

Must pick up more popcorn....

I'm no Navy guy, but this comment stands out ...

"They couldn’t regain control. You mean to tell us that, neither the helmsman nor the officer of the watch were trained well enough to know how to operate the ship properly? Not to mention the ship’s engineers below deck could have overwritten the autopilot and manually controlled the ship from there. This sounds like systemic incompetence from the top down."

 

[Navy_Pete]

Wow, that's something, if they could be recovered the bridge recorders would be an interesting listen, but good job on the investigators putting that all together conclusive enough for this kind of public release.

For the non-mariners, the autopilots generally just keep the ship on a compass heading (like you set it to run due east). I think the newer versions can actually be a pre-programmed course done by the navigator as well, but haven't seen that in person.

Even with our systems, and the amount of drills we do, sometimes there is still panic when something happens. In our procedures, when the bridge makes the pipe for 'steering gear breakdown' we run back and take manual control at the lowest level, but again that process can get screwed up with people panicking. WIth reduced crews and commercial designs, you can end up with things taking longer to happen, and when you have the stopping distances and turning radius measured in nautical miles you can get control back but still be too late to avoid it.

Not a steering breakdown issue, but that's basically what happened with HMCS Preserver alliding with a floating drydock at ISI. There weren't tugs around, but basically the ships need to be moving for the rudders to manuever, so below that speed (bare steerage way) you are basically drifting). Internally there were a bunch of people in the dockyard watching it happen in slow time, with plenty of cell phone videos.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hmcs-preserver-crash-leaves-500k-repair-bill-1.1203948

Unlike the RNZN, we just buried the BOI and didn't do anything publically, because that's how the RCN rolls with BOIs and investigations. Lessons learned are for losers!

 

[FJAG]

Unlike the RNZN, we just buried the BOI and didn't do anything publically, because that's how the RCN rolls with BOIs and investigations. Lessons learned are for losers!

Are you sure that Canada's inquiry of the Preserver crash is complete? It's only been 13 years.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Wow, that's something, if they could be recovered the bridge recorders would be an interesting listen, but good job on the investigators putting that all together conclusive enough for this kind of public release.

For the non-mariners, the autopilots generally just keep the ship on a compass heading (like you set it to run due east). I think the newer versions can actually be a pre-programmed course done by the navigator as well, but haven't seen that in person.

HDW Class has autopilot that can do its own course corrections.

Even with our systems, and the amount of drills we do, sometimes there is still panic when something happens. In our procedures, when the bridge makes the pipe for 'steering gear breakdown' we run back and take manual control at the lowest level, but again that process can get screwed up with people panicking. WIth reduced crews and commercial designs, you can end up with things taking longer to happen, and when you have the stopping distances and turning radius measured in nautical miles you can get control back but still be too late to avoid it.

Some people just don't know their jobs that well or are inexperienced. Generally with the Navy, it's the later.

Not a steering breakdown issue, but that's basically what happened with HMCS Preserver alliding with a floating drydock at ISI. There weren't tugs around, but basically the ships need to be moving for the rudders to manuever, so below that speed (bare steerage way) you are basically drifting). Internally there were a bunch of people in the dockyard watching it happen in slow time, with plenty of cell phone videos.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hmcs-preserver-crash-leaves-500k-repair-bill-1.1203948

Unlike the RNZN, we just buried the BOI and didn't do anything publically, because that's how the RCN rolls with BOIs and investigations. Lessons learned are for losers!

I knew the OOW who was on the bridge when this happened. They left the Navy shortly after and got a nice Govt job!

Rudders help the Ship turn but you are correct, below a certain speed they don't do anything because there is little to no water pressure being applied.

Weren't the old AORs single shaft as well? No speed and you get a big paddle wheel effect!

 

[Lumber]

For the non-mariners, the autopilots generally just keep the ship on a compass heading (like you set it to run due east). I think the newer versions can actually be a pre-programmed course done by the navigator as well, but haven't seen that in person.

I saw this for this first time in 2011 aboard an Arleigh Burke. We were north of Oahu and had a very simple set of a few long tracks to take us around the west side of the island to the south side for the entrance into Pearl. The nav plan was fed into the ship's auto-pilot, and the ship steered itself all night. The poor helmsmen (on Arleigh Burkes, they stand, not sit) basically slept the whole night leaning against the console.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Weren't the old AORs single shaft as well? No speed and you get a big paddle wheel effect!

They were, and they also wouldn't RAS if their autopilot wasn't working because that was able to keep the course dead steady, which is nice when you are 1/5th the size and attached to them on a high strength steel cable moving in the same direction.

Still pretty common on cargo ships and bulk carriers I guess, but once they get out of the harbour with tugs, they just plot a course towards point B and go, so the single propellor is more efficient (if you can live with the draught from bigger blades). The big, slow speed diesels are insanely big, you can actually stand inside the piston on a lot of them.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I saw this for this first time in 2011 aboard an Arleigh Burke. We were north of Oahu and had a very simple set of a few long tracks to take us around the west side of the island to the south side for the entrance into Pearl. The nav plan was fed into the ship's auto-pilot, and the ship steered itself all night. The poor helmsmen (on Arleigh Burkes, they stand, not sit) basically slept the whole night leaning against the console.

The CPF has an autopilot, but it's a strange design decision on the control side, as it does all the adjustments at full flow (vice easing on and off for small movements needed to stay on course) and slams the rudder around, so it's never used. It's really weird, because that mode is only used on the manual pushbuttons and the actual helm follow up mode will slowly bring it up and down so small movements are a lot more gentle.

The 280s had an old ones, but by the time I went on them they were never used (but always checked during presails alongside). Wasn't sure if it was because no one trusted the old analogue controls, or because they wanted the helmsman to be awake enough to pay half attention, or for some random unknown reason.

 

[Halifax Tar]

They were, and they also wouldn't RAS if their autopilot wasn't working because that was able to keep the course dead steady, which is nice when you are 1/5th the size and attached to them on a high strength steel cable moving in the same direction.

I did the helmsman portion of my OSUT on PRE. She was an SOB to keep steady.

She was my first and second ship, I will always consider myself a proud tankerman.

 

[MARS]

HDW Class has autopilot that can do its own course corrections.

In '98 I did an MCDV coastal transfer mostly in autopilot, including course changes.

Fed from the tracks laid into the old Kelvin-Hughes Nucleus 3 6000A console, right to the helmsman console. Was a single button at the helmsman station to disengage if needed. Worked great.

 

[dapaterson]

The 280s had an old ones, but by the time I went on them they were never used (but always checked during presails alongside). Wasn't sure if it was because no one trusted the old analogue controls, or because they wanted the helmsman to be awake enough to pay half attention, or for some random unknown reason.

If Nelson didn't need one, why would the RCN?

 

[Navy_Pete]

If Nelson didn't need one, why would the RCN?

We still store food and ammunition like Nelson did; just a big chain of people with the occasional crane.

What's wild is the ships came with conveyor belts so you could do the whole thing with a half dozen people. THey apparently didn't work great, but instead of making the idea work, we defaulted back to lots of people.

Anyway, I'm sure this report will mean we will be practicing steering gear breakdowns more than usual (which is already frequent) for the next little while.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A bit more detailed and informed discussion on the report. It seems in some ways the crew acted very well and in others showed poor training. I think the Captain is going to rightly wear this one, even if she is not at fault for the training standards.

 

[daftandbarmy]

A bit more detailed and informed discussion on the report. It seems in some ways the crew acted very well and in others showed poor training. I think the Captain is going to rightly wear this one, even if she is not at fault for the training standards.

Less Haka passion, more Bristol fashion

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We still store food and ammunition like Nelson did; just a big chain of people with the occasional crane.

What's wild is the ships came with conveyor belts so you could do the whole thing with a half dozen people. THey apparently didn't work great, but instead of making the idea work, we defaulted back to lots of people.

Anyway, I'm sure this report will mean we will be practicing steering gear breakdowns more than usual (which is already frequent) for the next little while.

SGBD, the most over practiced drill there is

Engineering Emergencies are more useful or something involving power failures

 

[daftandbarmy]

We still store food and ammunition like Nelson did; just a big chain of people with the occasional crane.

What's wild is the ships came with conveyor belts so you could do the whole thing with a half dozen people. THey apparently didn't work great, but instead of making the idea work, we defaulted back to lots of people.

Anyway, I'm sure this report will mean we will be practicing steering gear breakdowns more than usual (which is already frequent) for the next little while.

But what about the Leadership breakdowns?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

But what about the Leadership breakdowns?

You lash them over the quadrant and then attach two lines to their arms and run them through blocks....

 

[daftandbarmy]

You lash them over the quadrant and then attach two lines to their arms and run them through blocks....

 

[Navy_Pete]

SGBD, the most over practiced drill there is

Engineering Emergencies are more useful or something involving power failures

I thought so too, until we had a real one coming into a port somewhere, but the people in emergency steering for specials (sitting outside, because that setup is dumb) did the right thing and kept us from going outside the dredged channel.

On the CPFs with the new cat DGs pretty much don't happen anymore, and really shouldn't as long as we keep up on the maintenance and keep 3 or 4 in service. At one point we had 4 working MWMs on my swan song and we were a weird CPF unicorn. Would have turned it over like that with the crew swap as well except N37 couldn't be arsed to get someone to make sure the turbo they shipped out was the right one as they were handed. Spoiler; box was marked wrong and it was handed the wrong way for what we needed, they spent thousands shipping it on air freight for nothing to save a 20 minute verification.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I thought so too, until we had a real one coming into a port somewhere, but the people in emergency steering for specials (sitting outside, because that setup is dumb) did the right thing and kept us from going outside the dredged channel.

On the CPFs with the new cat DGs pretty much don't happen anymore, and really shouldn't as long as we keep up on the maintenance and keep 3 or 4 in service. At one point we had 4 working MWMs on my swan song and we were a weird CPF unicorn. Would have turned it over like that with the crew swap as well except N37 couldn't be arsed to get someone to make sure the turbo they shipped out was the right one as they were handed. Spoiler; box was marked wrong and it was handed the wrong way for what we needed, they spent thousands shipping it on air freight for nothing to save a 20 minute verification.

So I had a SGBD happen once coming in to port.

We were doing drills before coming in to the harbour. They closed up in Emergency Steering and the Bosn who was on the helm in the ESC turned the dial the wrong direction to take control and broke it LOL. Steering then didn't work anywhere and I had to use engines to bring us in to Esquimalt Harbour.

 

[Navy_Pete]

So I had a SGBD happen once coming in to port.

We were doing drills before coming in to the harbour. They closed up in Emergency Steering and the Bosn who was on the helm in the ESC turned the dial the wrong direction to take control and broke it LOL. Steering then didn't work anywhere and I had to use engines to bring us in to Esquimalt Harbour.

CPF or 280?

The 280s were a lot more responsive on steering by main engines, and the CPFs would be as well except there is a huge resistance to dropping the x-conn gearbox. One ship recently wiped their bearings on the Xconn by running too much opposing engine orders at high speed and over torquing the shit out of things. 10 knots opposing when you are bare steerage is very different to trying to do a 20-25 knot differential when you are moving at 15-20 knots. The ship got pissy because there was nothing explictly saying you can't have full ahead on one shaft and full astern ordered on the other in the CPF operating manual; the 280s had some additional guidance for higher speed operations that meant you were watching for the torque difference. It wasn't in there for the CPFs because of the Xconn drive mode being normal, and some common sense applying that you consider torque limits that are generally in place when doing stupid things.