History of removing headdress in the Mess

[NavyBob]

Good day all. After much browsing through many a regulation, I have failed to come up with my desired answer, so I am turning to all of you knowledgable folk for my answer! The reason I ask here is because this issue was discussed in another post and many people seemed to know what they were talking about.

The question has two parts. One: Where is it actually written that one shall remove their headress in the mess? Two: Does this regulation actually state that the reason for removing the headdress is because of the image of the Queen?

I have searched high and low on google, the DIN (can you find anything in th DIN? their search engine is terrible!), I've even gone right into QR&O's and DAOD's and I can't actually find it in writing anywhere. I suspect that if it is in writing, it may be buried in British texts that date back a few hundred years. While it is accepted that one removes their headdress because of the likeness of Her Majesty, our wardroom is curious as to where this is actually written, if at all. I suspect that many messes have it written into their constitution, and this may be the only written version of this tradition.

 

[Springroll]

This may help:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/3230.0.html

 

[NavyBob]

That's the other thread I read on the topic. While they discuss and generally agree that it's out of respect for the Queen, there are still no references to any actual regulation   I'm trying to find this for my boss who is a history major and as such, wants to see it in writing. It's more out of curiousity than anything. We don't disagree with the tradition, nor do we contest it. We just want to see where it's written.

 

[George Wallace]

You may try getting a copy of:

CUSOMS AND TRADITIONS OF THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES by E.C. Russell;    ISBN: 0-88879-026-0.

 

[geo]

Customs & traditions of the CME (Red book) - incl sound tracks for Wings & Hurrah for CRE

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admie/dgcps/CME_customs_e.htm


Hmmm.... still lokin for hat rule - must be in Dress manual - stand by............

 

[Gunner98]

You are unlikely to find a regulation regarding mess etiquette.  The prohibition on parkas, raincoats, headdress and weapons in the mess is an etiquette issue that is taught through customs and traditions lectures.  IMHO, it does have anything to do with the Queen (as the many foreign non-Commonwealth countries have similar etiquette.)  IMHO, it is moreso that everyone in a mess is there by invitation of the mess manager/chief cook.  This invitation can be revoked and service refused for personnel who do not adhere to the etiquette - headdress, dirty hands, eating with your dirty hands, slurping your soup etc.

A mess constitution/bylaws is made of many agreed upon rules, customs and traditions.  The tradition of buying a round for the house if you violate etiquette is not enforceable other than by peer pressure.

Did your mother or grandmother let you wear your baseball/cowboy hat at the dinner table?

You may well remember the Legions discussion/deliberations concerning turbans and headress in the Legion halls!  See Hansard transcript at:
http://www.legis.gov.bc.ca/hansard/35th3rd/h0602pm.htm

 

[Michael OLeary]

THE GUIDE, A Manual for the Canadian Militia (Infantry)
compiled by Major-General Sir William D. Otter, K.C.B, C.V.O.
1914 edition

No officer entering the ante-room before dinner (i.e., after the sounding of the first bugle) nor after dinner, should wear vhis headdress.

 

[AmmoTech90]

I cannot access it from where I am, but I believe that the dress regs state that head dress will be removed in "canteens".  Do a search through the dress regs for canteen and you should find it.  Seeing as one of the functions of a mess emulates that of a canteen (refreshment) that reg could cover the order portion of taking off your hat.

 

[Lima_Oscar]

Canadian Forces Dress Instructions A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Wear of Headdress:

9. Messes and Canteens. Personnel who avail themselves of the privileges offered by a mess or canteen shall remove headdress on entering the premises.   Except for mess and canteen staff, those entering for the purpose of performing a duty or an inspection, or those entering for the purpose of maintaining or enforcing discipline, shall not normally remove headdress.

 

[medicineman]

I couldn't find anything in dress regs beyond using "formal rules of ettiquette" or "civilian standards of same" or religious standards of various groups.  Of course there are formal military regulations which may go beyond those standard, but are situalnally dependant.

MM

 

[NavyBob]

Customs & traditions of the CME (Red book) - incl sound tracks for Wings & Hurrah for CRE

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admie/dgcps/CME_customs_e.htm


Hmmm.... still lokin for hat rule - must be in Dress manual - stand by............

I came accross that CME book several times in my searches. I'd say it's one of the best pieces of literature I've seen produced on Customs, tradition and orders of dress in the entire CF.

 

[NavComm]

Thank you, because as a new reservist, I oft times forget to remove my headdress when entering the mess. I wasn't sure, when I returned from bmq and was quickly assigned to Op Valour (Smokey Smith funeral) if I should remove headdress when entering the garrison or the mess.

No one said "remove your beret" when I entered the garrison but I sure got a few good clues to do it when I entered the mess! I want to personally thank those soldiers who took it upon themselves to remind an ordinary seaman to 'take off your cap' because it's not instilled in you at basic.

 

[MCpl Burtoo]

http://www.lacombelegion.com/myth.html

Here is a link for the Locmbe Legion, Myths / Facts page. At the very bottom of the page is this Myth / Fact about the removal of headdress in the Legion......

MYTH
Some Legion Branches are hypocrites because they do not allow hats in their facilities.

FACT
The removal of hats is a visible sign of respect to the memory of those who protected the freedom we enjoy today.

This humble act is a custom and tradition established years ago to remind us of courtesies to others.
The decision to remove headdress is made by the individual Branch.

When I was a young soldier I was told it was out of respect to remove your headdress in the mess because of the Queen's Photo...but this did not seem right as in the  Drill Halls and even in the  Head Sheds (HQ Buildings),  the Queen's photo hung on the wall. Now I have been in the military for a few years and this is what I now know is true.....

The removal of headdress in the "MESS HALL" is just good manners, as I am sure most of your moms didn't let you eat at the dinner table with a hat on!

The removal of headdress in the " DRINKING MESS" is out of respect . The Legion wanted a silent way, a different way to show the respect to the fallen and came up with removal of headdress that was adopted by our "Drinking Mess" establishments in the CF.

Just my 2 cents......

 

[TCBF]

I recall, back in 1971 as a 16 year old Private, entering the Men's Canteen (Wet), coming to attention, saluting the picture of the Queen (it was on the north wall, come to think of it), and - if not in a kilt - removing my web belt and balmoral.  I was told the the belts had to come off because regimental brass buckles at the end of a 26 inch belt make DEADLY weapons in a brawl.  Most of you will have seen regimental battledress belt buckes.  A few of you may even have worn a 26 inch belt.  ;D

"mess manager/chief cook"  -  have no authority regarding membership.  The chief cook can exert authority in the dining room, but not the rest of the JRC/WSM/Offr's Mess etc.  The Mess manager works with the committee, but the commitee - through their mess constitution and bylaws - controls all SOCIAL access to the mess.

Tom

 

[Fishbone Jones]

http://www.lacombelegion.com/myth.html

The Legion wanted a silent way, a different way to show the respect to the fallen and came up with removal of headdress that was adopted by our "Drinking Mess" establishments in the CF.

It's a plausible explanation, but I'll bet we were taking hats off in the Mess before the Legion was even established.

the picture of the Queen (it was on the north wall, come to think of it)

To overlook her domain, IIRC.

 

[Gunner98]

"The Mess manager works with the committee, but the commitee - through their mess constitution and bylaws - controls all SOCIAL access to the mess."

I beg to differ - the CO of the Mess has ultimate authority over even the mess committee, its constitution and bylaws. 

Getting good grub or any grub depends on the respect paid to the Chief Cook.

The Legion myth does not account for the same etiquette in other countries.  There were messes long before their were legions.

 

[TCBF]

I think you may be confusing Mess with Mess Hall.

The CO signs the constitution, bylaws, and approves the minutes after each mess meeting.  Or not.  These set the membership rules under the CO, but the commitee enforces them.

Tom

 

[Spr.Earl]

I think you may be confusing Mess with Mess Hall.


The CO signs the constitution, bylaws, and approves the minutes after each mess meeting.   Or not.   These set the membership rules under the CO, but the commitee enforces them.

Tom

Yes Good Queen Bess is always on the North Wall,Why? So she can look over her realm.
Removing your head dress is two fold,for the Queen and those who have gone before us.
As Tom also stated web belts were also removed just because the old web belts were a mean weapon with Regie Brass.Alas these some of these old tradition's are gone,now we are a kinder,nicer Army.(me arse,I hate P.C. 

Been there and have gone through the fights and we ended up getting robbed in our Ranks and the P.M.C. being charged with embezzlement but was found innocent!
But was goes around comes around.

All in the Militia watch your Mess' !

It's your Mess,the Mess is the last TRADITION we have left,respect this tradition and don't abuse it or we will lose it.

This from a old Sapper of 53,I'm near the end of my Army life but I don't won't you too lose the Mess as the Mess is a place which is your private place with out any Snr Nco or Hosifer bugging you unless you invite them in,the only person's who can walk in unannounced are the Orderly Sgt or Hosifer,but most will knock if they have any respect for the Mess or those you invite into your Mess.

Please don't let this Tradition die,it has died in the Regular Force but don't let it die in the Militia

Keep our Traditions alive.

UBIQUE

CHIMO

 

[Gunner98]

Tom

Forgive me, I come from the day when the mess and mess hall were one and the same at least for the officers.  It is nice that you folks insist on the Queen leading to headdress etiquette but the last time I checked the Germans and Americans are not under her reign and have the same traditions/etiquette.

Spr Earl - people are never found innocent - they are found not guilty usually due to insufficent or unconvinicing evidence or due to a technicality.