Hard-pressed army forced to train with paintball guns

[McG]

Hard-pressed army forced to train with paintball guns
Globe and Mail Online
Sunday, July 3, 2005 Updated at 2:39 PM EDT
Canadian Press

Ottawa â ” Canadian soldiers testing their fighting skills in a rare urban exercise were forced to rent commercial paintball weapons because they couldn't get proper army gear, a newly disclosed document shows.

The unusual paintball battle was fought in the Halifax area last February, as the army practised helicopter evacuations in a hostile urban setting.

Four Griffon helicopters ferried troops from the Halifax Commons across the harbour to an unused military housing complex in Dartmouth, N.S., where room-to-room searches were conducted.

The dramatic training included some civilian participants, and drew curious citizens who were quick to snap souvenir pictures.

An internal report on Exercise Sky Trooper says the â Å“venues provided the maximum amount of realism achievable for a contemporary operation.â ?

But the faux evacuation was marred when soldiers were unable to use their army-issue practice ammunition, which fits into their rifles but fires only low-speed powder balls, leaving a harmless mark on the target.

Known under the trade name Simunition, the 5.56-calibre soft bullets are manufactured by SNC Technologies Inc.

Soldiers need to wear special protective gear when using Simunition, including helmets with face protectors, but a shortage of supplies meant there was none available for Exercise Sky Trooper.

So troops were forced to lay down their C-7 rifles, and pick up commercial paintball guns, rented locally. They also rented commercial paintball helmets, with face masks and neck protectors.

â Å“The paintball did add limited realism to room clearing, (but) Simunition is clearly superior and will hopefully be available for future exercises,â ? says the report, obtained under the Access to Information Act.

The army's limited supplies of Simunition protective gear had been reserved for higher-priority training operations in other parts of the country, the document says.

A spokesman for the army says the appropriate protective gear is on order for the Atlantic headquarters in Halifax, but still has not arrived.

Maj. Chris Lemay also said the 150 soldiers who participated, most of them reservists, could have used blanks in their C-7 rifles but the operation would have been less realistic because blanks give no indication whether a target has been hit.

â Å“The exercise had to do with house clearing â ” you kick the door open and fire,â ? Mr. Lemay said.

â Å“With blanks, you're not sure you're doing the right thing because you don't know if you hit your enemy.â ?

Simunition, and a laser-based system now being developed, are preferred for such exercises, he said. But paintball can also inject a necessary realism into training.

â Å“You get stressed because you know the enemy can fire at you with paintballs,â ? Mr. Lemay said.

â Å“It gives the 'instant return' and the feeling that I can get killed. When you use blanks, you never get that kind of feeling.â ?

The Halifax exercise was to help prepare for an annual winter trek to Fort Pickett, Va., where Canadian soldiers train alongside their U.S. counterparts for a week, sometimes conducting urban operations.

Visit Globe & Mail

 

[KevinB]

:

Please...

Forced?  Realistic?  - Since when do weapon IA's and drills transfer to paintball and vice versa?  Rare Urban EX?

A reserve ex got screwed up since the regs prepping for Afghan needed the SIM guns ?  BIG FAT HAIRY DEAL.  Sorry if I can't shed a tear here - but I saw and heard stories from the guys who went down to Va.  Not only did they get SIM stuff down there (albiet US gear) but they got a lot more realistic training in some areas than our Roto got for Afghan.

Maybe the Globe should get out and look at what budget has forced commanders make do to train the soldiers deploying...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin,

You know, coming from the G&M, it has NOTHING to do with logistics and training, and EVERYTHING with making the CF look chintzy and incompetent.

 

[Bomber]

"But the faux evacuation was marred when soldiers were unable to use their army-issue practice ammunition, which fits into their rifles but fires only low-speed powder balls, leaving a harmless mark on the target."

Let me put one of these into homers army or leg, low speed powder and harmless  .  The new stuff for the C9 is 660 fps, I got hit with a 495 fps pellet gun when I was a kid, and that was enough for me.  Harmless doesn't cause bleeding and leave scars. 

 

[KevinB]

I've got two nice sim scars that look like I was hit with 7.62x39...

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

This was on the radio (a call-in show of some sort) here in Edmonton today as an example of a military "cover-up".  Apparently, the author of the article had to resort to an access to information request to gather this nugget of information.  From what little I heard, the host was saying that this was an embarrassment, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Frankly, I'm stunned that the chain of command would even consider renting commercial paintball equipment - even in the absence of alternatives.  Makes us - collectively - look like a bunch of walts and "airsofters"...  The objective could have easily been obtained by using blank and issue weapons, with no danger of picking up bad habits (as KevinB points out).  I strongly suspect that this has little to do with unavailability of "proper" equipment; instead, my guess is it can be chalked up to someone's bright idea to make training "interesting".  :

 

[MikeM]

Don't see any mention about using MILES, or was that tasked out somewhere else too? :

 

[downinOZ]

MikeM - MILES gear is a GI-NORMOUS logisitics exercise in just getting the stuff to the area, onto the people, calibrated, etc...  and, IMO, not worth the effort for a two day ex.  Anyone know costs for getting that stuff, with SMEs to training area for weekend ex?  TR, if you were a unit DCO who had to adapt because the gear was somewhere else, and, being well aware of the "Nothing is too good for the troops" environment the military has been in previously, wouldn't you make some attempt to put a bit of realism into the training if the opportunity exists?  The IA's don't transfer, but so what?  Entry drills and reaction time will be the same, a charged atmosphere with adrenalin pumping will be the same, and the ability to see some measure of success/improvement of drills and assess areas for further development will be the same.  I think the HQ did a great job weighing up using "Bang Bang"/"LIGHTNING BOLT, LIGHTNING BOLT and adding the smallest measure of realism to what could have been, boring.

What an excellent positive spin on RSS staff - another chance to participate in creative and lateral thinking in an environment which requires adaptation on a regular basis.  No smiley as that's sincere. 

 

[Britney Spears]

In my limited experience with commercial paintball, the biggest issue I've had is that the kit isn't nearly as durable or robust as a C-7 is. I can't seem to get through a single attack without breaking at least 3 of the guns, stumbling around in dark rooms, through windows, over obstacles, etc. Usually, there's enough casualties for most of us to have working weapons most of the time, but it seems to hamper the flow of the excercise if everyone keeps dropping their hopper every two steps.

The civive painball folks don't apprieciate us trying to smash mouseholes through drywall with their guns either.

 

[1feral1]

Ah MILES, here the Aussie version is called IWSS (Individual Weapon Simulation System), and is based on the US MILES. Yes its a nightmare, calibrating with 'god guns', and its a continious problem getting set up, new batts, old batts, dead batts, and the lads hate it.

Too much BS.

I have umpired many times with this crap, and it should be sold as ballast!

If soldiers must train with eqpt that deals in a 'sting' say simunition or something similar. This way, one learns to keep one's bum down, and one will feel the sting of getting shot. it becomes more than a game  ;D

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

MikeM - MILES gear is a GI-NORMOUS logisitics exercise in just getting the stuff to the area, onto the people, calibrated, etc...   and, IMO, not worth the effort for a two day ex.   Anyone know costs for getting that stuff, with SMEs to training area for weekend ex?   TR, if you were a unit DCO who had to adapt because the gear was somewhere else, and, being well aware of the "Nothing is too good for the troops" environment the military has been in previously, wouldn't you make some attempt to put a bit of realism into the training if the opportunity exists?   The IA's don't transfer, but so what?   Entry drills and reaction time will be the same, a charged atmosphere with adrenalin pumping will be the same, and the ability to see some measure of success/improvement of drills and assess areas for further development will be the same.   I think the HQ did a great job weighing up using "Bang Bang"/"LIGHTNING BOLT, LIGHTNING BOLT and adding the smallest measure of realism to what could have been, boring.

What an excellent positive spin on RSS staff - another chance to participate in creative and lateral thinking in an environment which requires adaptation on a regular basis.   No smiley as that's sincere.  

Been there, and as the story points out, the optics are terrible.  When the Reserves are desparately attempting to shake off the "social club" image, they need to start thinking inside the box a bit more.  I doubt (and will stand corrected by those in the know) that a Regular Force unit/formation would have rented civilian paintball equipment for an exercise, no matter what the justification, particularly one so much in the civilian eye.  After all, this was work up training for a much more realistic exercise in the US, as KevinB points out.  "Nothing" is hardly what these soldiers got in this instance, but that seems forgotten in the midst of all the hand-wringing.

 

[devil39]

Wes,

I have always enjoyed training with MILES, and as an Infantryman I have always felt that I have learned many valuable lessons as a result of MILES training.

I trained with MILES 2000 (newer version) in Autumn 2001, and I found it to be an excellent and practically transparent system.  It was simple to calibrate (no more aiming grid boxes), rarely malfunctioned, was easy to reset, and gave very useful readings, such as which person made which kill, at what time, and against who (especially useful for analyzing Blue on Blue... which happens).

There is still a requirement for umpiring, but it is far better now than how we had to umpire in the old days with only an umpire guide book, experience and common sense (rarely were all three found in the same place )

 

[KevinB]

I will admit that one day elelments of B and A Coy 1VP did go paintballing - but at our own expence and on a "adventure training day" as somethign for fun - nothing serious.

I've gone paintballing three time in my life - while it is somewaht fun it is nothing near realistic.

Anyone suggesting it is a tool needs their head examined.  Miles and Miles 2000 have their places - but they fall short for urban operations due to the size and location of the sensors and the divergence (or lack there of) of the beam.

Lastly - The biggest problem I have observed both REG and RES is units trying to do CQB on the cheap.  1) Training needs to be done by a REAL (as opposed to imagined) UOI, clowing aroudn force on force with no basics is a WASTE of $.  2) Excersises need to be observed by UOI's - cause we all tend to lose focus at times - this is not a game and CANNOT be treated like one - this is the bread and butter - KILLING THE ENEMY.

3) Factor in a Tactical Casualty care system for downed members - this is the biggest problem I have observed - since a number of times the site may onyl have 1 UOI and he is busy watching the movements and drills he cannot 'drop in' to give a sitrep on the members who are hit so they can be factored into play.

4) Weapons handling - it is still a weapon treat it with the respect it deserves.

 

[MikeM]

Agree with you on that Devil, few months back I was on a large exercise with the MILES 2000 and there wasn't too many problems that couldn't be resolved quicky.

However, point noted on the logistical nightmare, although I found the MILES 2000 Equipment to be quite good on all the occasions I have used it. Had a fair share of bad experiences too with the older system in Kentucky though.

 

[mcnutt_p]

If soldiers must train with eqpt that deals in a 'sting' say simunition or something similar. This way, one learns to keep one's bum down, and one will feel the sting of getting shot. it becomes more than a game   ;D

Cheers,

Wes

Training with civvy paintball guns is not a new method. I remember reading an article in the Maple Leaf in 2004 where the Royal Winnipeg Rifles and other units in 38 Bde were training that way.

If it works, and it is all you can get might as well use it.

 

[KevinB]

Training with civvy paintball guns is not a new method. I remember reading an article in the Maple Leaf in 2004 where the Royal Winnipeg Rifles and other units in 38 Bde were training that way.

If it works, and it is all you can get might as well use it.

: So some other fucked up organization did it makes it right?

IT DOES NOT WORK

 

[devil39]

Only did civvy paintball once.... seemed like there were lots of bad lessons to be learned

 

[mcnutt_p]

It is not perfect, but if it can train someone with basic tactics, and how to operate as a team. Then they got what they wanted.

 

[Infanteer]

If you bothered to read the thread, you'd have noticed that it can't be used to teach basic tactics and teamwork because it doesn't effectively simulate dismounted combat.

 

[KevinB]

It is not perfect, but if it can train someone with basic tactics, and how to operate as a team. Then they got what they wanted.

Please enlighten me with your Infantry experience.

Since three of us - specifically Devil_39 - a senior PPCLI officer with a company command in Afghanistan under OEF.
Infanteer and I have all said it is a BAD idea both of who have operational INFANTRY experience.

I can teach urban operations with a stick - and BETTER - than I could to troops with paint ball toys.