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Great Lakes machine guns raise ire in Canada

FredDaHead

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Great Lakes machine guns raise ire in Canada
U.S. Coast Guard conducting live-ammunition training drills
MARGARET PHILP

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

The United States Coast Guard have started to patrol the Great Lakes with machine guns mounted on their vessels and are conducting live-ammunition training drills on the U.S. side to prepare officers to combat terrorists flooding across the border from Canada by boat.

The automatic-weapon drills started earlier this year but came to light only in the past two weeks after information about the Coast Guard's move to create 34 permanent live-fire training zones in the Great Lakes was published in the U.S. federal register.

Since the beginning of the year, the Coast Guard have conducted 24 drills, each time firing about 3,000 rounds of lead bullets about a third of the size of a fishing-line sinker from light-weight machine guns in waters at least eight kilometres from the Canadian border and U.S. shores. Two more target practices are scheduled for this year.

The high-powered drills have stunned environmentalists, boaters and mayors in cities dotting the lakes in both countries who are outraged that the U.S. government would jeopardize the safety of pleasure boaters and commercial fishermen who could stray into the line of fire. Just as infuriating, they say, is the risk of lead exposure to fish and the more than 40 million people who draw drinking water from the Great Lakes

“It was a big surprise on both sides of the border. At first I thought it was an Internet hoax,” said Mike Bradley, the mayor of Sarnia, Ont., who has written a letter to Prime Minister Stephen Harper asking him to intervene.

“The longest undefended border in the world is gone. It's passé. And this is an example of it.”

Toronto Mayor David Miller chairs a coalition of U.S. and Canadian mayors working to restore and protect the lakes.

He said the target practice violates a treaty signed after the War of 1812 that outlaws military weapons on the Great Lakes, tampering with two centuries of peaceful history.

“This is very much the wrong direction, to militarize the border between these two countries,” he said in an interview. “It's symbolically important and practically important that the border remain open and doesn't become militarized.”

“At a time ... when there is interest in restoring the integrity of the lakes,” he writes in a letter to the Prime Minister, “it is most disturbing that the U.S. is contemplating exercises that will militarize the lakes, cause pollution and environmental degradation, restrict shipping and recreation, and change the peaceful border between Canada and the U.S.”

Far more people are killed on Toronto streets by illegal U.S. guns crossing the border, he said, than bloody-minded terrorists from Canada crossing south. “The idea that terrorists are flooding across the Great Lakes is utter nonsense,” he said. Until this year, U.S. Coast Guard vessels carried only handguns and small-calibre rifles. But anti-terrorist furor has led to a bolstering of firepower.

“We're trying to be prepared in case something happens,” said a U.S. Coast Guard spokesman, Chief Petty Officer Robert Lanier.

“I don't know what it is, but I know I want to be prepared for it when it happens. We need to conduct these live-fire exercises so we are prepared for whatever it may be. If we are not prepared for it, there are going to be questions about why we weren't prepared for it.”

The Coast Guard said the drills have so far been conducted without a hitch. By way of safety precautions, broadcasts on marine radio bands will be made repeatedly a few hours before training begins, and a second Coast Guard vessel will monitor boat traffic around the training zones during the shooting exercises.

But critics on both sides of the border say that many small pleasure boats are either not equipped with marine radio, seldom tune in, or could mistakenly wander into the unmarked firing range.

Others are raising alarms about the impact of tens of thousands of bullets made from lead, which has been linked to brain-development and behaviour problems in children. In recent years there have been efforts to reduce lead in the lakes, including the banning of lead paint and a more recent campaign asking fishermen to replace lead sinkers.

“We've spent years removing lead from the Great Lakes,” said Mary Muter, a long-time cottager and vice-president of the Georgian Bay Association, a coalition of cottage owners and boaters. “As a Canadian, these are binational waters and this is just offensive.”

The Coast Guard commissioned a study from a consulting group, stating that while lead from spent bullets could be passed up the food chain, the drills would pose “no elevated risk” to the environment or human health.

As for the shaky status of the world's longest undefended border, a spokeswoman for the Department of Foreign Affairs, Ambra Dickie, said that Canada and the United States signed a written agreement three years ago articulating that moves to arm U.S. law-enforcement vessels with light machine guns in U.S. jurisdiction do not violate the spirit of the treaty. That treaty, the argument goes, was drafted to ensure peace in the Great Lakes by forbidding weapons of war such as cannons on sailing ships.

“We don't have any cannons or rocket launchers or anything like that,” CPO Lanier said.

I think both sides are wrong: Canada is wrong to bitch about the environment (the effect is minimal) and about weapons being on the Great Lakes--we took a FRIGATE on it just a week ago. The US are wrong to conduct life-fire exercises without making damn sure there's zero chance of civilians wandering into the firing lanes.

It all comes down to stupid politiking...
 
The comments about militarizing the border are humorous to say the least.  Aren't we in the process of arming our border guards?
 
Well reccesoldier it is written for the Globe! Never let facts interfer with a soundbite!
 
“We've spent years removing lead from the Great Lakes,” said Mary Muter,
Just a question but what lead is she talking about? Don't know anything about the area but what is the situation there?

By the way could a few bullets actually harm the environment that much?
 
warspite said:
Just a question but what lead is she talking about? Don't know anything about the area but what is the situation there?

By the way could a few bullets actually harm the environment that much?

Certain choice European studies have concluded that lead sinkers fishermen use could potentially contaminate water. Basically, the crazy hippies think that if you use lead sinkers you contaminate water worse than, oh, say, all the factories this side of the Atlantic.

And "a few" bullets probably equal all the sinkers lost over a year or two. Following the ecocrazies' argument, those bullets that contain lead leak into the water, polluting it further.

Basically, they took stuff out of context and are now attacking people with their out-of-context arguments in typical hypocrite lefty fashion.
 
Hmm let’s see contamination and pollution of the Great Lakes. Yeah a couple of bullets are really going to make a difference there.

Oh his blondness the Mayor of Tronna is all upset by guns again, another big flipping surprise there, mind it is an election year and any MSN soundbite helps.

The Yankees are arming and sailing across the lake to burn Toronto again… quick check to see if the 4.t” guns on HMCS Haida are still working, oh right we gave it to Hamilton, ah well I guess we can always get the paddle wheeler ferry MV Trillium and fill it up with assorted Scarberia gang bangers to sail off Centre Island to keep us safe and sound. ::)
 
Frederik G said:
The US are wrong to conduct life-fire exercises without making damn sure there's zero chance of civilians wandering into the firing lanes.

You should stay in your lane Fred.......

USCG runs rather safe ranges at all locations and make every effort possible to prevent accidents.  SURFIREX ( surface firing exercises) are indicated in notice to airmen and notices to mariners , braodcasted on the guard frequency and there are always range safety boats present.  I know, i've seen a few.
 
Globe's a bit behind.....

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49631.0.html

 
Last time I served the ammo was not lead. Also does the old destroyer sunk off shore in lake Erie or Lake Huron still get used for target practice? Guess this latest issue is not the first time in recent years the the forces of both nations use the great lakes for target practice. Someone needs to stop being a winer and go back to the gin and tonic on the beach house deck.
 
cdnaviator said:
You should stay in your lane Fred.......

USCG runs rather safe ranges at all locations and make every effort possible to prevent accidents.  SURFIREX ( surface firing exercises) are indicated in notice to airmen and notices to mariners , braodcasted on the guard frequency and there are always range safety boats present.  I know, i've seen a few.

Maybe people who live near them bigass lakes are different, but back where I grew up most people who used small boats on didn't pay much, if any, attention to notices to mariners, and the few who did have radios, didn't listen to the guard frequency much. (ie, the radios were off most of the time) I'm not saying it's smart or that anything that happens to them isn't their fault, but why increase risks for people driving small boats without enough brains to do so? People riding "bigger" boats, and those who have common sense, aren't going to stray into the firing lanes, but there's always going to be stupid people when live-fire exercises are run in an open area.

Anyway, yeah, I shouldn't have strayed out of the gravel road... but it's getting my ride all dusty!
 
Frederik G said:
Maybe people who live near them bigass lakes are different, but back where I grew up most people who used small boats on didn't pay much, if any, attention to notices to mariners, and the few who did have radios, didn't listen to the guard frequency much. (ie, the radios were off most of the time) I'm not saying it's smart or that anything that happens to them isn't their fault, but why increase risks for people driving small boats

Just like every other training we do, steps are taken to mitigate the risks. I know for a fact the the USCG takes this very seriously  But training is necessary.  If people chose to ignore the warnings, thast their choice and they will have to accept the consequences. I will not speak of the environmental argument as my environmental impact assesement course is far behind me but if the US environmental protection legislation is anything like ours....an EA was done and the USCG had to seriously justify tis action and mitigate the environmental risks just like we do for every single military activity we do on Canadian soil.  The US is concerned about the security of its northern border, i would argue rightfully so, they have to be ready to do their job.
 
Lead bullets? Don't most modern military rifles, MGs and the like fire FMJ and steel rounds?
 
  The Yanks can patrol their side of the border any way they want.....it's their country.  If folks are upset, they should contact their MPs who will advise the Minister of Foreign Affairs.  The Minister, along with the sitting government, will decide whether it is a matter worthy of discussion with the US.

  Besides, who knew the Yanks had guns?  Sheesh.
 
Harbinger said:
Lead bullets? Don't most modern military rifles, MGs and the like fire FMJ and steel rounds?

Yes the current 5.56mm and 7.62mm are FMJ.  The jacket encases a lead core.  The 5.56mm SS109 has a small (very small) steel penetrator inside the lead core.

Be sure of what you start spouting off, if both sides are telling falsehoods or passing on inaccurate information no one wins, everyone looks like an ass.
 
I assumed we were talking about 50s, don't the 50s have copper jackets with steel penetrators and no lead core? Ammotech, give us the goods your the expert.
 
Harbinger said:
Lead bullets? Don't most modern military rifles, MGs and the like fire FMJ and steel rounds?

The only lead I've seen are in non-military wpns, .22, .32, .38 special, .357, .40-40 .44 and .45 Long. Some of the old military revolvers used lead bullets, but I've never seen or used any. My guess is that revolvers chambered for the .38 special might have used as a sidearm years ago = but I'm not sure.
 
The original article mentions light weight machine guns, and this article http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060928/NEWS01/609280376/1002/NEWS
mentions the M240-B which is FN GPMG varient so 7.62mm seems to be what they are looking at.  Even if it is .50 cal there is still lead antimony in the bullet, even in AP, I'll leave it at that rather than get into the exact make up.
Try this for non lead 5.56mm http://www.snctec.com/html/en/products/detail.php?id=4&thisSection=77
There are also non-lead 7.62 but they only have an accurate range of 100m and are designed for reduced template ranges.
 
The whole hullabaloo stems from the fact that most politicians don't know a thing about firearms and wouldn't even care to become educated given the opportunity.  Anyone that believes there are no armed police or CG vessels operating in the Great Lakes is living in a fools paradise.  As for the lead contamination, I'm sure there's a hell of a lot more duck hunter's lead shot been deposited in the lakes over the decades than anything the USCG can put out.  I've been scuba diving in both Ontario and Erie, the bottom is a fine silt, no coral, no tropical fish, plenty of zebra mussels.  The bullet will sink and be covered by the silt.  If some lead or copper particles do leech into the water, there's hundreds of millions of litres flushing out to sea, so it shouldn't be a problem.

If the politicians are scared of the coast guard conducting live fire exercises, I suggest they listen to marine band radio announcements and then go hide behind a big tree when the shooting starts.
 
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