Government finds new ways to screw soldiers in the name of saving money: door-to-door move policy

[Michael OLeary]

Cdnarmybear, it's certainly not whining, you're actually giving real-time confirmation that IRP is actually applying the extreme interpretation that this entire thread has been discussing.  And if one office is applying it, then I would suspect the instructions they all have are the same.

But we don't get to see IRP instructions to their own staff, do we?  The "staff answer" would no doubt be that they use the same book each member is handed on their initial interview.

 

[armyvern]

They seem to be very reluctant to pay out for the weekend in a hotel before unload and unpack.... even though odds are that my F&E may not be ready for delivery on that Friday anyways.

I don't have a problem paying for a couple nights hotel if I have to, but it seems they are taking the "door to door move" thing to the extreme....and if there are people out there that are abusing it, then they should be dealt with....but then again, that usually ends up being a group punishment thing 

Lest there be any doubt in your mind: I believe you!! ... One of my MCpls who is promoted and posted this APS outright asked IRPP here in Gagetown about that "weekend on my own expense during pack/load" (because I outright asked her to ask) at 1300hrs this afternoon (apparently, IRPP has yet to have their "clarification" made clear to them by the powers that be) during her appointment with them.

"It's at your own cost." She then asked "What do we sleep on - airmattresses? Cook on, cook with?" Response: "Whatever you wish to, but if you go into a hotel, you're on your own."

It is indeed IRPP that requires the sorting out - NOT the soldier.

I know the MCpls name (obviously) and I know the IRPPs rep name - for administrative purposes of course. Because as soon as I see "official" reference (if indeed it exists as inferred below) that IRPP are the ones wh are WRONG here ... I'll be firing this up the CoC faster than that grieveance they're going to be seeing from me on a certain CANFORGEN policy regarding ATL promotion effective dates.

 

[Strike]

Since I am moving from Kingston to Edmonton (7 days driving I think) I expect that I will also have to deal with this stupidity.

If anyone drafts a grievance can you at least let us know (if not posting the grievance fully) so that we can PM you for a copy?

 

[leroi]

Sounds like a real cheesy, scrooge-like way to chisel a few bucks away from CF members ...

I wish you all luck in challenging this.

 

[leroi]

I suppose I could write a letter, too. This policy is belittling--IMHO.

I'm remembering these words that seem to be falling fast into the past:

"Our commitiment is to be relevant to what Canadians want, and we are
going to be capable on the ground and have what our soldiers need when
a condition is set for them. [Underline my edit]

There is a connection here that Canadians have gotten away with ignoring
for too long and that is the fact that these are not my soldiers. They are
Canadian soldiers and they are the sons and daughters of Canadians ..."

                                                  (Ret'd) General Rick Hillier

 

[Cdnarmybear]

Since I am moving from Kingston to Edmonton (7 days driving I think) I expect that I will also have to deal with this stupidity.

Yes, you might, but I am hoping that there will be further clarification on this issue before we all go to our next postings  have you spoken with IRP yet?

I should have a better idea on how this is going to unfold after I go on my HHT next week. I do have the CANFORGENS and will be speaking with IRP....if I need to get a clarification, I have no problems doing so, as I  had issues with them on my last posting.

The last time I was posted I did have to get an ajudication because I was posted out of APS and had issues with IRP letting me leave my F&E in my house at the old location even though the new owners were not taking possession until 2 months after I left.(It was an old FY posting, so I could not move my COS past 01 Apr)

I was staying in the shacks for 2 months (which I ended up paying for) and still paying for my house until I could get into my house here(which was fine too, since I still owned it) because, lo and behold, the people I bought the house from were military too and couldn't move their dates to match with my COS.

I challenged the interpretation of the definition of what constituted a sold residence (which wasn't in the policy book at the time) as IRP said my house was sold (which legally was not until the funds were disbursed and the keys went to the new owners).... they wanted to ship my F&E and have it stored at my own expense (and then I would also be responsible for moving it out of storage) for the 2 months until I took possesion of the house here...I was pretty stressed out about it at the time, and just wanted to get on with things, but I was glad that I did challenge it. In the end the F&E stayed at my old residence and I was granted a trip back for pack,load,clean since I didn't take it before I left.

I would assume that I wasn't the only person that had ran into that situation, because I read that particular definition in the policy manual I recieved for this year. So if by speaking out and asking for clarification/ ajudication makes things less stressful for the next guy/gal that's a good thing.

I guess what I am trying to get at here is that if there is something that needs to change WRT IRP policy, then challenge it or ask for clarification...even if you think it's just not worth the hassle, nothing will change unless the policy folks are aware there is a problem. If enough people step up and speak out, then eventually it will change.(And, yes, I actually believe this, because sometimes it does happen :nod

My apologies for the long post, hope I wasn't too off topic. Hope everyone has a somewhat stress-free posting this year.

 

[McG]

Apologies if snippets of this has already been mentioned. On our splash page today May 5th 2009

Link or source?  The blurb about packing and loading over a weekend would be nice to show to IRP when I go in to sort my own move.

A link would be nice as (now more than a month later) the pers at IRP do not seem to have changed their tune on any of this.  In fact, I keep hearing new and exciting ways through which they will seek to make soldiers pay for their hotels, meals & storage.

I know a lot of people who start their travel on the same day the load is done (or the same day as the clean if they spend an extra day to clean).  Apparently, if you finish things up early and start driving for 1 - 2 hours after supper, then that will be counted against you as a travel day.  So, if you are entitled to 7 days travel and drive for two hours on the day your possessions are loaded onto a truck, then IRP will only give you 6 full days to get where you are going.

I've also learned that you will be responsible for food, hotel & storage if you arrive early (by a day or more), your truck is also available early, but your home is not available until the day you expected to arrive.  So, if you are entitled to 9 days travel and your closing date has assumed 9 days travel, then do not arrive early.  Alternately, if you are entitled to 9 days travel but planed to use only 8 days in order to provide yourself time to meet agents & lawyers (and to do the closing) then you will pay for that day.

 

[ModlrMike]

Such diversity of interpretation.

I had my IRP interview yesterday in Winnipeg, and was told that there has always been a requirement to have as efficient a move as possible, it just wasn't being enforced. I was also advised that my IL&M will initially come from core funding, up to the point that my HG&E is available in my new location. After that, the funding comes from the custom envelope. I was told that my hotels start on the pack day, and continue to the unpack day. Travel is advised on the first full day after loading. If I've spent all the funds available in custom, then I'll be out of pocket, so it behoves me to be as efficient as possible. All of which sounds reasonable to me. I don't want two weeks in a hotel. I'd rather be in my new home getting sorted.

I accept that there's never a certainty that you will be able to arrange the disposal and acquisition of a home with absolute precision. I was able to, but many can't.

 

[PMedMoe]

New CANFORGEN regarding this (not yet on the DWAN site):

01  01  201717Z JUL  09  RR  RR    UUUU                CMP 056/09

NDHQ CMP OTTAWA
CANFORGEN
UNCLAS CANFORGEN 130/09 CMP 056/09
SIC VAC/WAC
SUBJECT: CLARIFICATION OF THE CF RELOCATION POLICY ON DOOR TO DOOR
MOVES
BILINGUAL MESSAGE / MESSAGE BILINGUE
REFERENCE: CANADIAN FORCES INTEGRATED RELOCATION PROGRAM (CFIRP)
2009
1. IN THE PAST YEAR MORE THAN 100 IMPROVEMENTS WERE MADE TO THE CF
RELOCATION POLICY. THESE CHANGES WERE BASED ON FEEDBACK FROM CF
PERSONNEL WHO MOVED THE PREVIOUS YEAR. HOWEVER, DESPITE THESE
CHANGES, THERE IS A PERCEPTION THAT BENEFITS HAVE BEEN REDUCED AS
OPPOSED TO ENHANCED
2. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE POLICY OF THE TREASURY BOARD OF CANADA
THAT CF PERSONNEL DO THEIR UTMOST TO ARRANGE FOR THE MINIMUM NUMBER
OF GOVERNMENT PAID MEALS AND HOTELS WHEN POSTED. REINFORCING THE
TREASURY BOARD RELOCATION POLICY IN THE MIDDLE OF A PERIOD OF
GOVERNMENT RESTRAINT HAS LEFT THE IMPRESSION THAT SAVING MONEY ON
RELOCATION COSTS AT THE EXPENSE OF CF PERSONNEL AND THEIR FAMILIES
IS THE PRIMARY OBJECTIVE. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE CASE
3. THE CF APPROACH TO DOOR TO DOOR MOVES REMAINS FAIR, FLEXIBLE AND
UNCHANGED. WHEN YOU ARE POSTED, YOU ARE EXPECTED TO DO YOUR BEST TO
ENSURE THE NUMBER OF DAYS BETWEEN WHEN YOU LEAVE YOUR CURRENT
RESIDENCE AND WHEN YOU OCCUPY YOUR NEW RESIDENCE IS MINIMIZED. YOU
AUTOMATICALLY RECEIVE AT LEAST TWO DAYS TO MOVE OUT AND TWO MORE
DAYS TO MOVE IN, AS WELL AS A GENEROUS NUMBER OF DAYS TO TRAVEL FROM
YOUR LOSING UNIT TO YOUR GAINING UNIT
4. IF YOU ARE WAITING FOR AN MQ OR SQ, A PRIVATE RENTAL RESIDENCE, A
HOME PURCHASE POSSESSION DATE, OR ARE OPTING FOR A BRIEF PERIOD OF
IMPOSED RESTRICTION, THERE ARE MANY OPTIONS IN THE CF RELOCATION
POLICY TO ASSIST YOU IN COVERING ANY ADDITIONAL TIME BEFORE YOUR NEW
HOME IS AVAILABLE TO YOU. FOR EXAMPLE:
A. THE POLICY REIMBURSES PROVINCIALLY MANDATED PENALTIES IF YOU MUST
BREAK THE LEASE ON THE RESIDENCE YOU ARE RENTING
B. IT COVERS EARLY REPAYMENT PENALTIES FOR UP TO SIX MONTHS IF YOU
HAVE TO BREAK A MORTGAGE
C. IT PERMITS TEMPORARY DUAL RESIDENCE EXPENSES FOR UP TO SIX MONTHS
IF YOU DECIDE YOUR BEST OPTION IS TO MAINTAIN TWO RESIDENCES FOR A
BRIEF PERIOD
D. IT ALSO PAYS THE INTEREST ON A HOME EQUITY LINE OF CREDIT USED AS
A SECOND MORTGAGE IF YOUR HOUSE AT YOUR LOSING UNIT HAS NOT SOLD
BEFORE YOU CHOOSE TO BUY A NEW HOUSE AT YOUR GAINING UNIT
5. WHEN PREPARING YOU FOR YOUR MOVE, YOUR RLRS AGENT WILL PROVIDE
YOU WITH FULL DETAILS OF ALL YOUR OPTIONS WHICH ARE ALSO CLEARLY
EXPLAINED IN THE 2009 CF RELOCATION MANUAL THAT IS AVAILABLE ONLINE
AT http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/aps-paa-2009/doc/aps-paa-2009-eng.pdf
IF YOU REMAIN UNSURE OF YOUR RELOCATION OPTIONS, ENGAGE
YOUR CHAIN OF COMMAND
6. MOST CF PERSONNEL ARE ABLE TO ORGANIZE A DOOR TO DOOR MOVE
HOWEVER SOME CANNOT FOR REASONS BEYOND THEIR CONTROL. FOR ANY PERIOD
OF TIME YOU ARE SEPARATED FROM YOUR HOUSEHOLD GOODS AND EFFECTS FOR
JUSTIFIED SERVICE REASONS, SUCH AS DELAYS IN TRANSPORTING YOUR
FURNITURE, THE KEYS TO YOUR NEW HOUSE NOT BEING AVAILABLE, OR
PROBLEMS CAUSED BY ARRIVING ON A WEEKEND OR A HOLIDAY, YOU AND YOUR
FAMILY WILL BE REIMBURSED FOR HOTEL, MEAL, AND INCIDENTAL EXPENSES
AT THE APPROVED RATES. IN OTHER INSTANCES, WHEN IT IS CLEAR YOU HAVE
MADE EVERY REASONABLE EFFORT TO ARRANGE A DOOR TO DOOR MOVE, THE CF
RELOCATION POLICY PERMITS ADDITIONAL DAYS OF INTERIM LODGINGS AND
MEALS TO BE APPROVED ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS. IN CASES WHERE A DOOR
TO DOOR MOVE PROVES IMPOSSIBLE, AND WHEN THE MANY AVAILABLE OPTIONS
OUTLINED ABOVE HAVE BEEN EXHAUSTED, YOU CAN STILL APPLY TO THE
DIRECTORATE OF COMPENSATION BENEFITS ADMINISTRATION FOR SPECIAL
CONSIDERATION. IN SHORT, THE POLICY WAS DESIGNED TO ENSURE YOU DO
NOT GO OUT OF POCKET FOR EXPENSES THAT ARE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE
CF
7. I REMAIN COMMITTED TO THE CF RELOCATION POLICY ON DOOR TO DOOR
MOVES. LET ME REINFORCE THAT CF MEMBERS AND THEIR FAMILIES ARE
FAIRLY COMPENSATED AND THAT YOU WILL NOT BE DISADVANTAGED FOR THE
BRIEF PERIODS THAT YOU ARE SEPARARED FROM YOUR FURNITURE AND EFFECTS
AS YOU MOVE FROM ONE PLACE OF DUTY TO ANOTHER
8. SIGNED BY MGEN W. SEMINAIW, CMP

Funny, but the link in the email received at work was:

HTTP Error 404 - Page Not Found

DND has really got to stop changing their sites.  I have to update my Favourites weekly!  :

 

[McG]

... and now there is a stick for any who need it to fight for their benefits. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

DWAN/IntraNet link to the CANFORGEN here.

 

[Greymatters]

Doesnt work - or just not for those who arent on the DWAN I suppose...

 

[CountDC]

For those that are having the problem of weekend unpack/unload talk to your F&E section.  They should be able to provide you with the ammo you need.  I remember when I was there that we did not do weekends as it often cost too much (I think it was time and a half for Sat and double time for Sun) plus the member was allocated time off for it.  We only did one weekend and that was because the ship was sailing, it was a small load completed in one day and the company agreed to do it on Sat for only $100 extra. Royal may want you to do things on the weekend but F&E has their regulations that have to be considered too and weekends were out.

 

[Occam]

Doesnt work - or just not for those who arent on the DWAN I suppose...

DWAN and intranet are different words for the same thing - DIN is yet another.  If someone says it's a DWAN/DIN/intranet link, it won't be accessible from the internet.

Precious few general messages are posted to the internet, except via sites such as this one.  We can't afford to pay someone to convert CFAOs to the Common Look and Feel v2 for posting to the internet, I'm not going to hold my breath for general messages.  ;D

 

[Pusser]

There are a few misconceptions here.  The biggest one is that of the COS Date.  In all my years of service I have never seen such a simple concept cause so much confusion.  The COS Date is nothing more than an administrative point in time when you cease to be part of one unit and become part of another unit.  That's ALL it is.  Nothing more.  It is not the day you have to start traveling.  It is not the day you have to finish traveling.  It is not the day you have to report to your new unit.  It is not the last day at your old unit.  The date you need to report to your unit is arranged between the losing and gaining CO and can be at any point within 30 days either side of the COS Date.  That leaves a 60 day window in which to arrange a door to door move.  Is this such an arduous task? 

Some other things to remember:

1)  Travel time and ILM&I are two separate things.  Arranging a door to door move is supposed to reduce ILM&I.  It has nothing to do with travel time.  Moving companies often use two drivers so that their trucks can move 24 hrs a day.  This means that your HG&E will often arrive at destination before you do.  You do NOT have to be there when the furniture arrives in your new location.  You are entitled to whatever number of days have been calculated for you to drive safely between locations.  If you are still traveling when you HG&E arrive in your new location, the moving company will store it until you get there.  In my last move, my HG&E arrived at my new location eight days before I did! 

2)  There is no new policy here.  This whole thing is strictly an increased effort at enforcement of long existing policy.  It is in response to a number of individuals pulling a few stunts and expecting to the CF to foot the bill for months in hotels.  Unfortunately, innocent folks sometimes get caught in the crossfire.

3)  If the 60 day window is still not enough, there are some other options available that enable folks to effect a door to door move.  For example, if the old house doesn't sell fast enough, the member can still proceed on IR to the new location (ie. reports within the 60 day window).  Once on IR, the member can scout out the local market at leisure (this is actually better than an HHT).  In the meantime, the member can develop a short list of houses.  When he/she feels the time is right, he/she then arranges for the spouse to join him/her on an HHT.  Hopefully, the old house has been sold at this point and all that remains is to arrange closing dates at appropriate times.  Closing dates in this case can be at any time (have nothing to do with either COS or reporting dates), but should be close enough for the member to a) return home to pack/load and pick up family and b) travel to the new location with family.  This is how I did my last move and it worked out without a hitch.

 

[Greymatters]

There are a few misconceptions here.  The biggest one is that of the COS Date.  In all my years of service I have never seen such a simple concept cause so much confusion.  The COS Date is nothing more than an administrative point in time when you cease to be part of one unit and become part of another unit.  That's ALL it is.  Nothing more.  It is not the day you have to start traveling.  It is not the day you have to finish traveling.  It is not the day you have to report to your new unit.  It is not the last day at your old unit.  The date you need to report to your unit is arranged between the losing and gaining CO and can be at any point within 30 days either side of the COS Date.  That leaves a 60 day window in which to arrange a door to door move.  Is this such an arduous task? 

The misconceptions don't neccesarily start 'here', but they certainly occur everywhere else.  The points you made should already be known to members in the chain of command, yet many of them are the ones who incorrectly interpret what a COS date is in the first place.  My example being that almost every new 'supervisor' I ever dealt with during a move treated a COS date as if it were a deadline for showing up at a new unit - basically a 'you belong to me now' date, followed by 'why weren't you here by the assigned date?'.

 

[Pusser]

Sadly, you are correct.  There are too many folks in the chain of command who do not seem to understand that if they help their people through the moving process, instead of regarding it as an inconvenience, we would all be much better off in the long run.  I distinctly remember when they approved the special leave policy for relocation.  I thought to myself, we need a policy for this?  I had always considered the days spent packing a loading your F&E to be "duty," but was dismayed to find out when I asked that some supervisors/COs used to make people take Annual Leave to do this.  Now that's leadership!  The good example I can give is that of one CO who summed it up very simply to state that if you give the member all the time he/she needs to sort his/her personal life when they arrive at a new posting, they likely won't need to leave for other problems later.  Being reasonable generates loyalty and improves morale. 

 

[armyvern]

Sadly, you are correct.  There are too many folks in the chain of command who do not seem to understand that if they help their people through the moving process, instead of regarding it as an inconvenience, we would all be much better off in the long run.  I distinctly remember when they approved the special leave policy for relocation.  I thought to myself, we need a policy for this?  I had always considered the days spent packing a loading your F&E to be "duty," but was dismayed to find out when I asked that some supervisors/COs used to make people take Annual Leave to do this.  Now that's leadership!  The good example I can give is that of one CO who summed it up very simply to state that if you give the member all the time he/she needs to sort his/her personal life when they arrive at a new posting, they likely won't need to leave for other problems later.  Being reasonable generates loyalty and improves morale.

And, some COs, rather than making their pers take 'annual' for this activity, simply sent those pers to the field on ex their first day at location - not to be home for a month. By then, the spouses had already 'weathered the storm' all alone in a new town. Some of those guys/gals would have been "happy" to be allowed to take annual. Thus, the enactment of this policy gets them the time required to perform this task ... wherein the past - their spouses just got tasked with doing it all alone. So yes, we needed a policy for this - sadly.

 

[Pil]

2)  There is no new policy here.  This whole thing is strictly an increased effort at enforcement of long existing policy.  It is in response to a number of individuals pulling a few stunts and expecting to the CF to foot the bill for months in hotels.  Unfortunately, innocent folks sometimes get caught in the crossfire.

So you agree with subscribing to a "punish them all" mindset for a few individuals that took advantage of the system rather than punishing the guilty.

This shit may seem simple to you my friend. I don't know who to go to, what channels exist for me to find information and no one gives a shit if I complain just like you were saying in your post above. My last move and this move are the most confusing and frustrating things administration wise in my career so far.

 

[Greymatters]

And, some COs, rather than making their pers take 'annual' for this activity, simply sent those pers to the field on ex their first day at location - not to be home for a month. By then, the spouses had already 'weathered the storm' all alone in a new town. Some of those guys/gals would have been "happy" to be allowed to take annual. Thus, the enactment of this policy gets them the time required to perform this task ... wherein the past - their spouses just got tasked with doing it all alone. So yes, we needed a policy for this - sadly.

Following the old pattern of "that's how i was treated, so I'll treat my troops the same", or just ignorance?