Good News for British Columbia

[Infanteer]

Well, if I was moderator, i would correct your post, but i guess mods make mistakes Glen Clark wasn't convicted. He was acquitted. So basically, not guilty.

Nice lecture, but if you take the time to actually read my post, you'll see that I said "charged", not "convicted" - Glen Clark was charged with Breach of Trust.  Although he managed to slither out of it (as I'm sure Chretien will), the fact that a case was built against him and brought to court (and that he was basically drubbed out of power) should indicate that his integrity is below par.

We haven't even got to the pathetic job he did running the province yet....

 

[R031button]

Im actually working for the provincial NDP at the moment (watches for spears)


I have to say, the Liberals have killed B.C.'s small communities. You city folk seem to get the best end with them


Hospital closers, school closers, 35 person class rooms. 4 hour waits to get a finger reattached. It's total bullshit. Yes, you can bash Glen Clark, but really, was the economy doing all that great across Canada during his reign?

As a British columbian from the Interior, I haven't noticed to much in the way of small comunity collapse. People don't get that the government can't force a corporation to stay (Tolko) in an unprofitable situation. Further more, none of the schools in the Thompson Nicola have been closed, and attendance is up. What's more, I went to school from 2000-2004 in BC, and if anything, my classes had been getting smaller since grade 8, not larger.

Then again I am biassed, I'm going to a university now; not a university-college.

 

[Troopasaurus]

My class sizes have gone up from around 25 to about 35 now. I have seen the effects of budget cuts on our schools by seeing teachers fired because we cant afford to staff them while those class sizes rose. Our local hospital has been dropped from fully functioning with radiology, labs, OR's, Pediatrics etc... to a triage only with the majority of the hospital sitting empty while waiting lists increase. The nearest functioning hospital for me is about 40 minute drive for some of the 33,970 people of this city it is longer. then add on the typical hour long waiting room wait (took me 1 hour 42 minutes to get 4 stitches about 2 years ago). I think we will be seeing more people dying in the waiting rooms here if Campbell remains in power. There seems to be no good option in BC at the moment and it has become a battle for who is the lesser of two evils. lets not forget that Campbell was convicted of drinking and driving if you wish to bring up the legal card . Overall not impressed with Campbell and the Liberals would not be getting my vote.

Oh and Button, your univercity would be cheaper without Campbell after he removed the tuition freeze. Gordon Campbell campaigned on a promise to keep tuition fees frozen and increase the quality of education at BC colleges and universities. Since his election, Campbell has done the opposite. He has increased tuition fees by 70 percent for undergraduate programs at BC universities, and by as much as 150 percent at BC colleges and university-colleges. Students entering a four-year university program in 2001 would have expected to pay about $8,000 in tuition fees. Now those same students will pay $14,000. At university-colleges, the increases have been even worse. fees at Okanagan University College have more than double.

 

[Canuck_25]

Ok, some of Gordan Campbells policies are very similar to the last regime. The opening of the north for oil extraction, diversifying B.C.'s economy, cuts to corporate tax, incentives for corporations to invest, ect.

I did not approve of his immediate cuts to public services when he gained power. He managed to produce B.C.'s largest annual deficit at this time also, 3 billion.
After all this, the B.C. economy is another 7 billion dollars in debt, so much for good fiscal policy. He did though produce 1 annual budget surplus, 1 billion??? But he spent it all to win votes.

The 6 dollar an hour minimum wage is bloody awefull. The lowest hourly wage across the country. Workers get exploited by it's 500 hour limit in labour jobs.

The huge classrooms, the 15 cent fee on photo copying, lack of teachers, ect. In my school, almost all the teachers are baby booomers. The school district cant afford to hire younger teachers.

The closing of mills across the province. Mr Campbell has done nothing but watch the forest industry decline. Raw log exports have doubled under his reign, supplying jobs down south. Mr Campbell has done nothing about the 27% tarrif on our lumber.

Mr Campbell is forcing unions to return to work, avoiding settlments. Steelworkers, Ferries union, and CUPE were all forced to return to their jobs. That is bloody illegal in a democracy. People have the right to strike.

Dont get me started on healthcare.......

Unemployment in my area in about 11%. So, we do have a issue here with Mr Campbell. He cuts our services and tells us the economy is booming. Yes it might be booming in the lower mainland and up North, but it's dead here.



 

 

[Sub_Guy]

Ok, some of Gordan Campbells policies are very similar to the last regime. The opening of the north for oil extraction, diversifying B.C.'s economy, cuts to corporate tax, incentives for corporations to invest, ect.

The closing of mills across the province. Mr Campbell has done nothing but watch the forest industry decline. Raw log exports have doubled under his reign, supplying jobs down south. Mr Campbell has done nothing about the 27% tarrif on our lumber.

Mr Campbell is forcing unions to return to work, avoiding settlments. Steelworkers, Ferries union, and CUPE were all forced to return to their jobs. That is bloody illegal in a democracy. People have the right to strike.

Companies should also have the right to hire replacement workers if they strike, striking workers who block highways should be arrested on the spot.  You should have the right to strike, stand on the side of the road with your signs, I know that there are other people out there who would love to take your job.. Unions are wast of time and money, and is it just me or are unionized workers lazy.....FMF workers...yeah they know how to do it....

The Federal government hasn't done enough for our lumber, but this is mostly a Federal issue, so if the PM won't get tough, then what is Mr. Campbell supposed to do? 

Times do change, good thing the blacksmiths weren't unionized, or else we would see blacksmiths shops all over the place.  You can force a company to stay in a community when they aren't making money, yeah it sucks but thats life.

Healthcare lists are bound to get longer, as people are living longer, and the baby boomers are getting up there all causing longer lists.... I think two tier healthcare would be ideal, we keep the wonderful system we have now (30th in the world) and start private healthcare, which the government can't get involved in, it would be funded by the people who use it.  IT would only work if the government would keep its hands out. 

$6 minimum wage is lame, I was making that when I was in High School early 90's at the Canex in Petawawa.  <--- How the fcuk can anyone live on that?  That money barely got me enough money to get drunk at the river! 

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/labor07c.htm unemployment

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/labor50c.htm 2001 earnings

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/labor50_96c.htm 1996 earnings

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/labor60a.htm Under Campbell, unions are forced to return to work or face imprisonment

Do you understand what you've shown here?

Average earnings were slightly higher than the national average because many of the unemployed left the province, which also (somewhat) understated the Unemployment Rate: I don't know what you were doing, but I was one of the few to move here during the 90's (net migration was actually negative for a few years).  I still see the effects in my job every day (I finance real estate): developers are having trouble finding contractors, because so many moved and resettled in Alberta (which also explains why housing prices have gone up so much (limited supply of labour)).

If you think that increasing the numbers of days lost per worker is a good thing, you should not be allowed to go anywhere near a business (or an economoy).

 

[Canuck_25]

Do you understand what you've shown here?

Average earnings were slightly higher than the national average because many of the unemployed left the province, which also (somewhat) understated the Unemployment Rate: I don't know what you were doing, but I was one of the few to move here during the 90's (net migration was actually negative for a few years).   I still see the effects in my job every day (I finance real estate): developers are having trouble finding contractors, because so many moved and resettled in Alberta (which also explains why housing prices have gone up so much (limited supply of labour)).

If you think that increasing the numbers of days lost per worker is a good thing, you should not be allowed to go anywhere near a business (or an economoy).

Funny, the link that you showed me (the BCBC) showed that during the 90's, British Columbia had a large population increase. That sort of contradicts what you just stated

You just manipulated what i said. The goverment is simply avoiding the issue. There will be a Steelworkers strike next year in the province when the 2 sides discuss the next contract, which is expected to see a 30% cut in wages. Good luck trying to get people to recieve a 30% cut in wages.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Funny, the link that you showed me (the BCBC) showed that during the 90's, British Columbia had a large population increase. That sort of contradicts what you just stated

No, we had a moderate increase driven by purely by immigration: inter-provincial migration was flat or negative.  This means that 'Canada' was attracting workers, but they then were leaving British Columbia.  Immigration was the ONLY thing that kept this province going during the Harcourt/Clark years.  I've been to the CMHC conferences every year since 1996: I'm not making this up (it's my job to know).

You just manipulated what i said. The goverment is simply avoiding the issue. There will be a Steelworkers strike next year in the province when the 2 sides discuss the next contract, which is expected to see a 30% cut in wages. Good luck trying to get people to recieve a 30% cut in wages.

No, I didn't: you misinterpreted (or are purposefully misrepresenting) the data: I defy you to ask anyone in the real estate industry in British Columbia to deny the massive migration of contractors to Alberta (Calgary particularly) in the 1990's.

Do you think that it's possible that Steelworkers are overpaid (i.e., hiding behind labour law to keep their wages artificially high to the detriment of all of the rest of us)?  Oh wait - you're working for the NDP: it's simply not possible for someone to be overpaid unless they are a senior executive of some type, right?

 

[Brad Sallows]

I'm interested to hear of examples of teacher layoffs.  I know that school closures have been an issue, but the people raising the issue won't tell you that the cause is demographic.  School districts would save money by hiring younger teachers (lower on the pay scales).  The problems with education and conditions in the schools originate with the language that had crept into contracts over previous governments.

People don't die in waiting rooms because of cutbacks; people die in waiting rooms because of bad triage decisions.  The people piling up in waiting rooms are the ones there for their "owies" and discomforts for whom there are fewer resources.  Demand outstripping reasonable supply for what is often mistaken as "free".  Imagine that.

Campbell didn't raise tuitions.  That's not in his power.  The BC government can freeze and unfreeze tuitions, just as it can do to ICBC premiums.  That is all.  Read Paul Wells's columns and articles on tuition policy.  His analysis will surprise you, but if you understand it and agree with the importance of quality and availability, you should find yourself compelled to agree that tuition fees should further increase.

I hear and read a lot of bitching about raw log exports.  Why are none of the complainers starting businesses to provide finished lumber and other products?  Is it the role of government to run mills and enterprises to provide furniture, prefab framing, etc?

We have already discussed minimum wages here.  I think minimum wage advocates who actually earn low wages are fools but won't stand in their way if they wish to price themselves out of a job.  I think minimum wage advocates who don't actually earn low wages should have to suffer the ill effects of their ideals, but they don't.

People have the right to strike.  Taxpayers have the right to services provided at the lowest possible cost.  Think about that for while.

 

[Infanteer]

As usual, excellent post Brad.

Campbell didn't raise tuitions.   That's not in his power.   The BC government can freeze and unfreeze tuitions, just as it can do to ICBC premiums.   That is all.   Read Paul Wells's columns and articles on tuition policy.   His analysis will surprise you, but if you understand it and agree with the importance of quality and availability, you should find yourself compelled to agree that tuition fees should further increase.

Roger that.  I paid for my university - there was a difference between the costs of my first and last year, but so what; it was still within reason considering that university is an investment.  Most of my expenses were covered by, wonder of wonders, working.  Yes folks, nothing's free.

As well, during my university years I took part in Rowing program that was offered - when we took our uniforms and boats down to compete with teams from the US, the difference in funding was starkly apparent considering these were smaller colleges and we were from one of Canada's largest universities.  The program was excellent (I have no doubt that it helped shaped teamwork and how I viewed it in the Army) and two teammates I knew went on to Athens for the Olympics, but the funding was low.  Now, this is same across the board for university funding - as I said earlier, it's an investment; you want to attract the top faculty and provide first rate facilities for people to study in, you gotta pay the bucks.

My cousin went to university in the States, and my bills were no where close to hers, so I don't get what all the whining is about.

I hear and read a lot of bitching about raw log exports.   Why are none of the complainers starting businesses to provide finished lumber and other products?   Is it the role of government to run mills and enterprises to provide furniture, prefab framing, etc?

It's easier to bitch and point fingers then take the entrepreneurial risk, I guess....

We have already discussed minimum wages here.   I think minimum wage advocates who actually earn low wages are fools but won't stand in their way if they wish to price themselves out of a job.   I think minimum wage advocates who don't actually earn low wages should have to suffer the ill effects of their ideals, but they don't.

The 6 Dollar wage that Mr Canuck raised is a training wage - red herring.  My family business doesn't pay anybody 6 bucks an hour.

That being said, minimum wages seem to be indicative of unproductive economies - if the economy was hot, wouldn't workers be in demand?  Isn't it a coincidence that while BC's economy was in the shitter with the NDP at the helm, we were second only to Nunavet in minimum wage levels.

People have the right to strike.   Taxpayers have the right to services provided at the lowest possible cost.   Think about that for while.

Thank you.

I would also add that taxpayers also have the right to access medical services without being hounded or held ransom by what amounts to a bunch of overpaid people in entry-level (re: unskilled) positions.  Taking a terminally ill family member to the hospital during the HEU strike, I didn't appreciate the militant stance these goons were taking.

 

[redleafjumper]

"Companies should also have the right to hire replacement workers if they strike, striking workers who block highways should be arrested on the spot.  You should have the right to strike, stand on the side of the road with your signs, I know that there are other people out there who would love to take your job.. Unions are wast of time and money, and is it just me or are unionized workers lazy.....FMF workers...yeah they know how to do it...."

I have one simple response to that comment - bad management makes a strong union.  I was never a big union person and thought much the same way until I saw why unions are necessary in many work environments and I now work in one.  Favoritism, discrimination on many grounds, unfair and unrealistic working conditions, pushing the envelope on workplace safety.  Unions? Well if you like weekends, realize that unions brought them to you, as well as such wonders as the minimum wage.


"I'm interested to hear of examples of teacher layoffs.  I know that school closures have been an issue, but the people raising the issue won't tell you that the cause is demographic.  School districts would save money by hiring younger teachers (lower on the pay scales).  The problems with education and conditions in the schools originate with the language that had crept into contracts over previous governments."

No, you are wrong about contracts.  As someone who has been dealing with the fallout of the 22 layoff notices that were given to faculty members at my community college I can categorically say that these layoffs have nothing to do with contract language and everything to do with short-sighted management decisions about where to spend money.  Chronic underfunding by successive governments (not just the present one) is also a serious problem for public post-secondary education and a contributing factor to poor management decisions.  In the past contract period management wages have increased an average of 25% (or higher at some institutions) while faculty salaries have remained much lower while the gap between them grows.  In addition, more administrators have been getting hired to manage fewer faculty; at my place ten more in the past three years through periods of successive layoffs.  These layoffs are coupled with severe program cuts, especially to technologies, likely due to the high cost of a tech FTE (Full-time equivalent). Tuitions go up, parking fees increase, the variety of course and program offerings are limited and the administrators still haven't figured out why there are fewer student enrollments.

I am one voter who will be looking long and hard at my ballot on May 17. 

 

[DJ]

In reference to the University tuition increases I must admit that they hurt.  My first year fees were just over $260/course and now they're above $400 (two years later).  However, the increases were needed.  The university was crumbling due to increased enrollment and decreasing government post-secondary expenditure.  Tuition freezes don't help students; they handicap the universities and force them to compensate for the lack of finances by limiting programs.  Would I like a cheap degree?  Of course!  But I would rather have a quality degree that I, and future employers, will actually respect in the future. 

DJ

 

[redleafjumper]

Tuition fees by themselves do not provide a quality degree.  What gives one a quality education is quality instruction, accredited quality programming, transferability in the case of colleges and, in the case of universities, a reputation for excellent research.  What goes hand-in-hand with those four elements is a commitment of the institution to recruit and retain well-educated faculty.  Those elements build the respect necessary to give an institution a good reputation.  It is more important for an institution to offer a broad choice of programs  than it is to cut the expensive ones and jack up tuition anyway.  At some point the cost gets beyond what people can afford to pay by working while going to school , and in many cases supporting a family.  Money invested in education is always returned to the economy, but it seems many of the decision makers do not think in the long term; they only look at the annual budget.

Unfortunately, in a province where anyone can hang out a shingle as a private provider of education the reputation of all educators suffers.  What seems to be important nowadays is to get some sort of fast certificate in order to get into a job market where advancement will be limited.  The longer one stays in school the better their job will be, even if it can take some time and experience to get that job. 

 

[DJ]

I agree with your assessment about tuition fees no being the measure of the quality of a degree , however, the four elements and the well-educated faculty are hard to maintain if funding per student decreases for many consecutive years.  It wasn't only the expensive programs that were suffering; the more basic courses were feeling the effects of less professors/student, crammed rooms, less sections and so on.  What would be ideal is for the government to make the investment and properly fund post secondary.  Until that happens though, I'd rather pay higher fees for services than have a tuition freeze and find my options extremely limited. 

DJ

 

[redleafjumper]

If paying more fees actually led to more options, I'd be in full agreement.  The reality is that tuition fees have gone up, but choices have become more limited.  Increased tution fees have not gone to increasing options for students.  From the Public Bodies Documents (available at each institution's library - probably in the archives) one might surmise that any gains from increased tuition revenue have gone to substantially increase the salaries of senior administrators.

 

[TCBF]

Our whole society (among others) is going that way.  I think if we had private universities in Canada, they could easily compete with the government funded ones.

 

[redleafjumper]

What would private universities in this country compete for?  Faculty?  My experience shows me that private colleges follow a model of "choose, use, abuse, and refuse" when temporarily hiring faculty.  Usually they hire recent graduates with minimal qualifications, offer to pay them what seems to be the huge sum of maybe $20.00 for a teaching hour and then suck their blood until the private college no longer needs their expertise, or else the faculty member gets wise that "gee whiz, marking and prep takes up a lot of time that I'm not paid for..." and goes back to driving taxi if they can't find a job in their field of expertise.  Students?  Credibility is an issue for most students and I don't see that the private institutions have that credibility for anything but short courses that give the student a ticket to a low paying mid-skill job. 

There is certainly no academic credibility without tenure (colleges lack tenure so generally have much stronger unions to help protect the faculty members) and academic freedom.  Research Grants? Seems silly for government to give grants to private universities when they are paying for the public ones.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

What would private universities in this country compete for?  Faculty?  My experience shows me that private colleges follow a model of "choose, use, abuse, and refuse" when temporarily hiring faculty.  Usually they hire recent graduates with minimal qualifications, offer to pay them what seems to be the huge sum of maybe $20.00 for a teaching hour and then suck their blood until the private college no longer needs their expertise, or else the faculty member gets wise that "gee whiz, marking and prep takes up a lot of time that I'm not paid for..." and goes back to driving taxi if they can't find a job in their field of expertise.  Students?  Credibility is an issue for most students and I don't see that the private institutions have that credibility for anything but short courses that give the student a ticket to a low paying mid-skill job. 

There is certainly no academic credibility without tenure (colleges lack tenure so generally have much stronger unions to help protect the faculty members) and academic freedom.  Research Grants? Seems silly for government to give grants to private universities when they are paying for the public ones.

Which is why the faculty of Canadian Universities are rated sooo much higher than the US, right?  :-\

 

[Infanteer]

Credibility is an issue for most students and I don't see that the private institutions have that credibility for anything but short courses that give the student a ticket to a low paying mid-skill job.

So, is this how Harvard managed to get rated as the top university in the world - short courses and low paying mid-skill jobs?

 

[redleafjumper]

I understood that we were talking about BC politics and Canadian universities and colleges, not American ones.  My comment about private institutions relates to the great influx of private colleges that we have now in BC.  Our educational system here is quite different from the American model, and comparisons as to which is "better" would be complex.  What are the sources for the apparent claims that:

          a.  American faculty are rated higher than Canadian Faculty (Is this college or university faculty - realize that colleges are defined differently in each province let alone from the US to Canada - some colleges offer purely vocational training, some emphasize University Transfer, others are combinations)

        b.  Harvard is rated the top university in the world - I have one colleague who is an Oxford PhD who might differ with that claim and yet another who holds a PhD from Yale who would also debate it.

And incidentally, the super high tuitions in those private American universities is but one reason why many Americans choose to have their children educated in Canadian universities.  Other reasons include limited access to some universities, content of courses and programs reputation of the university or college and yes, excellence in teaching.