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Georgia and the Russian invasions/annexations/Lebensraum (2008 & 2015)

Well everyones still questioning the US legitimacy of the war. I fail to see how this NOW affects Georgia's ability to shore up it's border with the Russians. The American's are now obviously put to task in helping the Georgian's, but how much and how far the US is willing to go is going to be interesting.

Most countries around the world are paying very close attention to this squabble, as it's potential for escalation has nuclear proportions all over it, or at the very least a global confrontation(WW3)

Cheers.
 
An interesting response by a Russian reader. Linking the conflict to larger issues like energy flows and so on is interesting, but needs to be kept in context and not as a launching pad for conspiracy theories:

http://dustmybroom.com/content/view/5050/1/

What do we know about the Georgia-Russia conflict     
Written by Krazy   

Wednesday, 13 August 2008 
This is an email sent to me by one of my Russian friends who has asked me to post - It was written by Bruce Gagnon to Organizing Notes at 8/11/2008. It has some interesting information:

I must admit that I am not an expert on the Georgia-Russia conflict that is now underway. But I have been following issues there for some time and have learned to see some linkages between what is going on in places like Poland, Czech Republic, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, China, and the Georgia-Russia conflict.

So here are some random, and not so random, observations and quotes that I think might give us all something to ponder.

* It's all about oil and natural gas. Russia has the world's largest supply of natural gas and Iran has the world's second largest supply. There is much oil and natural gas up in the Caspian Sea region. Which ever country controls this part of the world will have a jump start in controlling the keys to the world's economic engine for the foreseeable future.

* The expanding economy of China has tremendous need for energy. China now imports much of its oil via sea (thru the Taiwan Straits) and the U.S. has in recent years doubled its naval presence in this region pursuing the ability to "choke off" China's ability to import oil. China is looking for alternative, land routes, to transmit oil thus pipelines through Central Asia become crucial. U.S. permanent bases in Afghanistan and attempts to put military bases in other Central Asian countries is in large part an attempt to create the ability to control these pipeline routes. F. William Engdahl, author of A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order, maintains that, "Washington is out to deny China east land access to either Russia, the Middle East or to the oil and gas fields of the Caspian Sea."

Engdahl goes on to say, "A close look at the map of Eurasia begins to suggest what is so vital for China and therefore for Washington's future domination of Eurasia. The goal is not only strategic encirclement of Russia through a series of NATO bases ranging from Camp Bond Steel in Kosovo to Poland, to Georgia, possibly Ukraine and White Russia, which would enable NATO to control energy ties between Russia and the European Union."

"Washington policy now encompasses a series of 'democratic' or soft coup projects which would strategically cut China off from access to the vital oil and gas reserves of the Caspian including Kazakhstan. The earlier Asian Great Silk Road trade routes went through Tashkent in Uzbekistan and Almaty in Kazakhstan for geographically obvious reasons, in a region surrounded by major mountain ranges. Geopolitical control of Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan would enable control of any potential pipeline routes between China and Central Asia just as the encirclement of Russia controls pipeline and other ties between it and western Europe, China, India and the Mideast."


* Some years ago I read the book called The Grand Chessboard by Zbigniew Brzezinski which I recently wrote about in relation to his being a chief foreign policy advisor to Barack Obama. Brzezinski has been critical of the Bush administration for invading Iraq essentially saying that it was the wrong war. Brzezinski has long maintained that Russia and China were the targets that had to be militarily contained if the U.S. hoped to continue its role as chief superpower of the world. He says, "Eurasia is the world's axial super continent. A power that dominated Eurasia would exercise decisive influence over two of the world's three most economically productive regions, Western Europe and East Asia. A glance at the map also suggests that a country dominant in Eurasia would almost automatically control the Middle East and Africa. With Eurasia now serving as the decisive geopolitical chessboard, it no longer suffices to fashion one policy for Europe and another for Asia.....Eurasia accounts for 75% of the world's population, 60% of its GNP, and 75% of its energy resources. Collectively, Eurasia's potential power overshadows even America's."


* In 2005 the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline opened. It cost $3.6 billion and was funded by British Petroleum (BP) in a consortium including Unocal of the U.S. and Turkish Petroleum, and others. With the fall of the Soviet Union a scramble ensued for political and economic control of this part of the world. Georgia is on the pipeline route. Russia was opposed to this pipeline route. Brzezinski was a consultant to BP during the Bill Clinton era and urged Washington to back the project whose route would circumvent Russia.

Brzezinski also serves on the board of the US-Azerbaijan Chamber of Commerce that includes people like Tim Cejka (President of ExxonMobil Exploration); Henry Kissinger; James Baker III (who in 2003 went to Georgia to tell them President Shevardnadze that Washington wanted him to step down so U.S.-trained Mikhail Shaakashvili could replace him as president); Brent Scowcroft (former Bush I national security adviser); and Dick Cheney (who served on the board before becoming Bush II's V-P).


The U.S. has long been involved in supporting "freedom movements" throughout this region that have been attempting to replace Russian influence with U.S. corporate control. The CIA, National Endowment for Democracy (board members include former neo-conservative congressman Vin Weber and General Wesley Clark), and Freedom House (includes Zbigniew Brzezinski, former CIA director James Woolsey, and Obama foreign policy adviser Anthony Lake) have been key funders and supporters of placing politicians in power throughout Central Asia that would play ball with "our side".


* Now all of this hardball politics is to be expected. The U.S., Russia, and China all want control of this part of the world. OK, nothing new there. But the current Georgia-Russia conflict indicates that things are moving to a new dangerous stage of development. Very recently the U.S. and Georgia held military maneuvers in the now disputed territories. Russia countered with military maneuvers of its own. Russia is feeling threatened by expanding U.S. bases in Romania, Bulgaria, Poland and the Czech Republic. Added to that are NATO attempts to put bases in Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia and possibly even Georgia - all along or very near Russia's border.


* None of this is about the good guys verses the bad guys. It is power bloc politics and when the shooting starts it is civilians who die and their communities get destroyed. Big money is at stake and big money does not mind killing innocent people who stand in the way of "progress". For the peace movement we must first understand some of the history, and also understand the "chess" game now underway. We must not have illusions that this is about "democracy" and must denounce the military and corporate agenda of the players involved. For us in the U.S. we must also remove our blinders and see that both parties (Republican and Democrat) share a bi-partisan history and agenda of advancing corporate interests in this part of the world. Obama's advisers, just like McCain's (one of his top advisers was recently a lobbyist for the current government in Georgia) are thick in this stew.


* In the end the peace movement must recognize that this current fighting could trigger protracted war and the only question becomes which weapons get used? Does the U.S. decide it must "come to the aid of it's ally Georgia"? Is an attack on Iran somehow connected to this widening war for oil? Are nuclear weapons on the table? None of us has all the answers but it is imperative that we begin asking these hard questions and learn as quickly as possible as much as we can about the region.


* Lastly, need I remind anyone, that any protracted warfare in this region will be directed by space satellite technology. Space control and domination gives the U.S. the leg-up in any superpower struggle for control of oil and natural gas.


Posted By Bruce Gagnon to Organizing Notes at 8/11/2008
 
Snafu-Bar said:
Wasn't thier involvement in Iraq part of the future NATO pact with the US?

You help us now we'll help you later kinda thing.
???

In the larger scheme of international politics, countries from the former-Soviet bloc recieve a lot of credit when they can offer expeditionary forces for international missions. Many analysts believe that Romania was given limited accession to the EU in 2007 because they could commit troops to Iraq, OEF and ISAF. They did not qualify for EU membership otherwise. For all intents and purposes, Georgia has used the same tactic over the last 5-6 years and they are now reaping the rewards for their efforts.

It's just another factor that makes the situation that much more complex.
 
stegner said:
Has no one noticed the irony of Georgia violating Iraq`s sovereignty by participating in the Iraq War in 2003?   It's fine for Georgia to invade other countries-but heaven forbid if they are invaded?  Not hypocritical at all.  Very little sympathy for them and their playing the violation of sovereignty card!  Maybe if they hadn't put troops in Iraq they could have defended their own country a bit better?   

Are you on crack?

During OIF,

United Nations Assistance Mission in Iraq (UNAMI)

    * Flag of Georgia (country) Georgia: 550 blue-helmets
 
Very interesting when you look at the start date for these events:

http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-%2526-space/article/2008-08/web-newest-front-line

Is the Web the Newest Front Line? Attacks on Georgian and Russian Web sites have made the Internet a battlefield
By Stuart Fox Posted 08.13.2008 at 5:31 pm

As the actual ground combat between Russia and the former Soviet Republic of Georgia grinds to a halt, security and Web experts have begun to focus on what might have been a secret third front in the conflict: the Internet. With numerous Georgian government Web sites defaced or shut down, the virtual attacks that preceded the actual invasion may go down in history as the first war in cyberspace.

The first barrages began in the end of July, and consisted of denial of service attacks on the Georgian President’s Web site. A denial of service attack (DoS) involves shutting down a server by routing more traffic to the site than the machines can handle. These attacks are committed by bot servers, which constantly bombard the target site with service requests.

Those July disturbances turned out to be reconnaissance for the large scale attack that coincided with the ground invasion on August 11th. DoS attacks disabled Georgian government Web sites; first publicized by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia Web site, which was forced to move to Google Blogs after its Georgia-based site was disabled. Additionally, the Bank of Georgia’s Web site was defaced with pictures of Georgia’s President juxtaposed with pictures of Adolf Hitler.

Finding out who is behind the attacks is more complex than it first appears. None of the attacks could be traced back to the Russian government directly, with most security experts attributing the implementation of the attacks to the innocuously named Russian Business Network (RBN). RBN is actually an organized crime front that has been linked to spreading malware, spamming, phishing, identity theft and even child pornography.

However, some experts disagree, with CNET.com reporting that the attacks might be the work of nationalistic private hackers, in effect, the Internet version of the Russia-backed militias that have been fighting alongside the Russian army in the ground war. DoS attacks against popular Georgian hacker forums and the publication of Georgian politician’s emails address for spamming seems to support this theory. For its part, Georgia has not been passive, with Georgian hackers launching their own DoS attacks against Russian news outlets.

Whether or not these attacks represent the Russian military acting against the Georgian government by proxy or ambitious nationalist hackers seizing an opportunity, these attacks clearly indicate that the Internet has become a battlefield.
 
Are you on crack?

During OIF,

United Nations Assistance Mission in Iraq (UNAMI)

    * Flag of Georgia (country) Georgia: 550 blue-helmets


Wow for someone who throws around the insults you really should not.  That applies to GAP also.  Operation Iraqi Freedom is not UNAMI.  Operation Iraqi Freedom was launched in March 2003.  The United Nations Assistance Mission in Iraq (UNAMI) was not created until August 14, 2003.  Remember the UN did not invasion, though it later approved reconstruction efforts.  This efforts went largely nowhere, because  Sérgio Vieira de Mello  was killed during the Canal Hotel bombings just five days later on August 19, 2003.  Some five years later the UN presence in Iraq is minimal.  Though Georgia is now part of UNAMI when it initially entered Iraq it was under OIF and not on a UN sponsored mission.  The initial Georgian commitment to Iraq was not the 550 blue-helmets mission, but 70 troops, and than 300 Georgian Special Forces that operated under U.S command in Baqouba, guarding bridges as well as FOB's 'Caldwell,' 'Warhorse' and 'Gabe.'  There were 2,000 Georgian troops in Iraq, so the majority of that force some 1450 was not participating in the UN mission, but in OIF.  Georgia was a member of the coalition of the willing.     

 
Ahhh....gee, now that you've pointed out that, we should shut down the UN and send everybody home....might need those "diplomats" to negotiate in case their country is attacked, oh, and cancell all peacekeeping operations too....same reason.

And, if we ask nicely, because you said it is so, those nasty little armies/navies/etc waging war/intervention/etc. should just get on home, they might be needed....

right........another 10 years of this and you'll be right up there with Jack and Elizabeth.....
 
Ahhh....gee, now that you've pointed out that, we should shut down the UN and send everybody home....might need those "diplomats" to negotiate in case their country is attacked, oh, and cancell all peacekeeping operations too....same reason.

And, if we ask nicely, because you said it is so, those nasty little armies/navies/etc waging war/intervention/etc. should just get on home, they might be needed....

right........another 10 years of this and you'll be right up there with Jack and Elizabeth.....

I am not sure what you are trying to say.  My closest guess is that you are invoking reductio ad absurdum-but even with that you are not very clear, nor do you seem to logically connect with what has been said previously.  Please take the time and consideration to articulate your thoughts more clearly.  Not sure who Jack and Elizabeth are, but send them my regards nevertheless. 
 
I got thinking about the situation when people(Oligarch) were questioning/defending the Neutrality of the Russian Peace Keepers.  What was the UN thinking allowing Russia to act as mediators in an area where they can't possibly be unbiased?  It would be a kin to having Quebec separate break into a civil war and allow Canadian troops to be the peace keepers.  I know the world is pretty stretched right now to keep up with its peace support missions but really.  Would Russia have Vetoed an EU backed mission?  I can't think of too many UN missions where the troops that wore the blue helmets had potential almost blatant conflict of intrest on how the mission would turn out.
 
stegner said:
I am not sure what you are trying to say.   My closest guess is that you are invoking reductio ad absurdum-but even with that you are not very clear, nor do you seem to logically connect with what has been said previously.   Please take the time and consideration to articulate your thoughts more clearly.   Not sure who Jack and Elizabeth are, but send them my regards nevertheless.   

Nah....didn't think you'd figure it out.....done, I have more productive use of my time than arguing with some online bumpkin....
 
Well this thread has spiraled nicely....

Now opened again.



Warning to all members: If you can't keep it civil and keep it to the facts without the discussion getting personal you will be dealt with.

No more personal attacks of any kind or you will be thrown on C&P immediately, if it's sever enough you will be banned.




The Army.ca Staff
 
For the genius's that dont beleive the WMD threat in Iraq -- Geez where did all that Yellowcake come from that got shipped to Canada two months ago from Iraq?
  and yes FYI I was there and was involved in my own small part of the movement of it.

Dont even try to use the Iraq straw argument -- there were UN resolutions in place to give the coalition the legitimacy to remove Sadam if he did not prove he had destroyed his stockpiles of WMD's -- these had been documented by the UN after GW1 -- He never proved it and he is gone.

Russia invaded a soveriegn country - and made aggressive moves past any "peacekeeping" role.  I see the old Commie lovers have crawled back out from under their rock.
 
Actually I wouldn't use the term ''Commie-lovers'' - I'd say this is just a continuation of the ''Great Game''- the Russia-West confrontations of the 19th century. The foreign policy of the Soviet Union was very similar to that of Czarist Russia... In many ways it is ridiculous in that if you look at such sites as  (if I remember) The Worst Roads in the World or The worst polluted places in the World  - Russian locations are prominent.. It would seem rational to build the infrastructure of a country first before any outside adventure - but rationality doesn't seem to be at play here    http://neoncobra.blogspot.com/2006/12/worst-highway-in-world.html ; http://www.blacksmithinstitute.org/wwpp2007/finalReport2007.pdf
 
stegner said:
Wow for someone who throws around the insults you really should not.  That applies to GAP also.  Operation Iraqi Freedom is not UNAMI.  Operation Iraqi Freedom was launched in March 2003.  The United Nations Assistance Mission in Iraq (UNAMI) was not created until August 14, 2003.  Remember the UN did not invasion, though it later approved reconstruction efforts.   This efforts went largely nowhere, because  Sérgio Vieira de Mello  was killed during the Canal Hotel bombings just five days later on August 19, 2003.   Some five years later the UN presence in Iraq is minimal.   Though Georgia is now part of UNAMI when it initially entered Iraq it was under OIF and not on a UN sponsored mission.   The initial Georgian commitment to Iraq was not the 550 blue-helmets mission, but 70 troops, and than 300 Georgian Special Forces that operated under U.S command in Baqouba, guarding bridges as well as FOB's 'Caldwell,' 'Warhorse' and 'Gabe.'  There were 2,000 Georgian troops in Iraq, so the majority of that force some 1450 was not participating in the UN mission, but in OIF.  Georgia was a member of the coalition of the willing.     

Georgia doubled their contingency only in 2007

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6433289.stm
 
Navy_Blue said:
I got thinking about the situation when people(Oligarch) were questioning/defending the Neutrality of the Russian Peace Keepers.  What was the UN thinking allowing Russia to act as mediators in an area where they can't possibly be unbiased?  It would be a kin to having Quebec separate break into a civil war and allow Canadian troops to be the peace keepers.  I know the world is pretty stretched right now to keep up with its peace support missions but really.  Would Russia have Vetoed an EU backed mission?  I can't think of too many UN missions where the troops that wore the blue helmets had potential almost blatant conflict of intrest on how the mission would turn out.

More like letting the US peacekeep rather than Canada.

I see that "the incident" had been removed from the board. I'm glad to see that it was dealth with in an unbiased method and my posts were not the only posts that were removed.

Now for posting what I came here to post.

I previously made comments about the media and to follow up those comments I have the following video. A 12 year old girl tells the truth on Fox News about Georgia and who they in actual fact were running from. Fox News even had to cut them off right in the middle of the account of Georgian aggression even though they had just come from a commercial break 2 minutes prior to that. Fox News and corporate media do not want the truth out. Keep in mind that the media is not "independent", it is corporate. I believe there is no such thing as independent media.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

More pictures of the conflict:

Bombardment of the Russian escort: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiT1hfH5KPw

Before Russian involvement on Russian news about the Georgian bombardment of Tshinivali and the bombardment of Russian peacekeeprs, 10 of whom had died, Russian 58th army is begining to move towards South Ossetia to help the peacekeepers.. this is in Russian but the images speak for themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUdz36VSVCQ

7th of Augusts Georgian artillery fire on the city during the night, agian in Russian but the pictures speak for themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfEJUZ0wISk

The artillery you see firing is firing upon the populated city of Tshinivali, the South Ossetian capital... this is the fire under which the girl in the cafe you saw in the first video got trapped
 
Navy_Blue said:
I got thinking about the situation when people(Oligarch) were questioning/defending the Neutrality of the Russian Peace Keepers.  What was the UN thinking allowing Russia to act as mediators in an area where they can't possibly be unbiased?  It would be a kin to having Quebec separate break into a civil war and allow Canadian troops to be the peace keepers.  I know the world is pretty stretched right now to keep up with its peace support missions but really.  Would Russia have Vetoed an EU backed mission?  I can't think of too many UN missions where the troops that wore the blue helmets had potential almost blatant conflict of intrest on how the mission would turn out.
As pointed out, not only did Russia have peacekeepers there, but also Ossetians and Georgians.
 
oligarch said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

Bombardment of the Russian escort: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiT1hfH5KPw

Before Russian involvement on Russian news about the Georgian bombardment of Tshinivali and the bombardment of Russian peacekeeprs, 10 of whom had died, Russian 58th army is begining to move towards South Ossetia to help the peacekeepers.. this is in Russian but the images speak for themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUdz36VSVCQ

7th of Augusts Georgian artillery fire on the city during the night, agian in Russian but the pictures speak for themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfEJUZ0wISk

The artillery you see firing is firing upon the populated city of Tshinivali, the South Ossetian capital... this is the fire under which the girl in the cafe you saw in the first video got trapped

It's interesting, oligarch, that all the footage apprearing on YouTube is originating from the Russian/South Ossetian sides.  Could that be part of the plan in the DOS (Denial of Service) attacks on Georgian Internet infrasturcture?  In the absence of two sides to a story, the only side seen must be taken as the truth.  Information Warfare at it's finest.  In this case, my hat is off to the Russians.

Now, I would ask you to review this story from CANOE (shared with the usual disclaimer) and comment, objectively and without passion, please.
Russia says 'forget Georgian territorial integrity'


 
oligarch said:
More like letting the US peacekeep rather than Canada.

I see that "the incident" had been removed from the board. I'm glad to see that it was dealth with in an unbiased method and my posts were not the only posts that were removed.

Now for posting what I came here to post.

I previously made comments about the media and to follow up those comments I have the following video. A 12 year old girl tells the truth on Fox News about Georgia and who they in actual fact were running from. Fox News even had to cut them off right in the middle of the account of Georgian aggression even though they had just come from a commercial break 2 minutes prior to that. Fox News and corporate media do not want the truth out. Keep in mind that the media is not "independent", it is corporate. I believe there is no such thing as independent media.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

More pictures of the conflict:

Bombardment of the Russian escort: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiT1hfH5KPw

Before Russian involvement on Russian news about the Georgian bombardment of Tshinivali and the bombardment of Russian peacekeeprs, 10 of whom had died, Russian 58th army is begining to move towards South Ossetia to help the peacekeepers.. this is in Russian but the images speak for themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUdz36VSVCQ

7th of Augusts Georgian artillery fire on the city during the night, agian in Russian but the pictures speak for themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfEJUZ0wISk

The artillery you see firing is firing upon the populated city of Tshinivali, the South Ossetian capital... this is the fire under which the girl in the cafe you saw in the first video got trapped

I have watched these videos, Bombardment of russian escort is just an attack on an advancing convoy, 7th August artillery, is also interesting, where did these russian journalists got all this close up footage as the newscast said, at the time of the Artillery strike, they were evacuated from the area, so how do they get film of artillery firing miles away, being almost to the side of it. All these videos have is just a few shots of shot up downtown Tshinivali ( which the newscast guy actually specifies ) and amazing Russian media disinformation.

Given the Russians broke the ceasefire and again advancing in Georgia, how can anyone actually believe what most of Russian state controlled media has to say.
 
Haggis said:
It's interesting, Oligarch, that all the footage appraring on YouTube is originating from the Russian/South Ossetian sides.  Cold that be part of the plan in the DOS (Denial of Service) attacks on Georgian Internet infrasturcture?  In the absence of two sides to a story, the only side seen must be taken as the truth.  Information Warfare at it's finest.  In this case, my hat is off to the Russians.


Not really sure what you mean. DOS attacks could be organized by anyone with a few servers at his disposal. Like I said earlier, I can pay someone I know in Russia 500 bucks and army.ca would go down for a day. So anyone in Russia with an axe to grind could be doing it, and believe me, there are people in Russia who are not happy about what Mr. Saakashvili is doing.

Menion,

The convoy I posted just as an interesting video to watch, and it was not really intended to "prove" anything. The fact that you felt compelled to respond to it and that you had the defensive kneejerk reaction of the need for response really indicates something though. The videos with a point are the videos of the Georgian shelling of Tshinivali using Grad installation, which in itself is a war crime because it targets civilians, and the video of the little girl thanking the Russian troops. With regard to Russian misinformation, I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you trying to tell me that the images of the grad installations bombarding the city have been photoshopped or are actually not real. It seems to me that you will discount anything non-CNN as Russian propoganda and blindly believe anything FOX-ABC-BBC will tell you to believe. This is particularily why I posted the video of the little girl on FOX news telling the truth about the war, and the anchor trying to cut them off. Glad to see that he had more decency than Bill O'Reily and didn't just tell the little girl to "shut up".

Cheers!
 
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