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FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

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sandhurst91 said:
Clearly, all I'm hearing (and perhaps it's selective, so fire back please) are the folks at DND relegating Northern Canada to what they've always assumed it to be - a backwater not worth their time or efforts - using the argument that if you choose to live there, then accept the challenges that it presents. That's a crap argument - particularly for Canada's aboriginal communities, the companies that now work there and their employees, the airlines that fly northern routes, and the tourists that are making the North an increasingly desireable destination.

This is not correct. It is the official policy of both the Government and DND to enhance and expand the CF's presence in the north. What you are referring to is merely the opinion of an individual, which is not at all indicative of official policy nor, I believe, of the broader opinion of members of DND.

Sam
 
sandhurst91 said:
Clarify crappy when, according to the CASA folks on their site (www.c-295.ca), they've sold a wad more aircraft than the Alenia folks... and some to serve similar SAR roles. heck, even Lockheed recommended the CN-235 for the US Coast Guard over their own airframe. Granted, each country has specific requirements - but crappy is I think a little strong.

I avoid using stronger language, though i would like to. Listen, I don't fly the thing, right? Talk to a pilot, and you will hear how great the Cormorant is. who cares it only flies 2 hours at a time, before the tail rotor needs to be checked, and often replaced due to cracks. The CASA is little. Its tight inside, and will take a complete rethink of our procedures in order to employ effectively. It flies too slow to meet the requirements of the competition. I gotta work in the back. Working in the back of the Buff is tough, it's more than a little bumpy in the weather people seem to need us in, and the back is crammed with gear for any possible situation, be it a crash in the Yukon, or a ship sinking @ sea. The Buffalo, is old, not pressurized and an oven/icebox depending on the season, but it is big enough to move around in upright, turns on a dime, flies about as slow as I can walk when fully flapped and gear down.I'd rather keep it than goto a cigar tube. I hope we we have progressed beyond the C47 Dakota. The C27 is c130 compatible, so we can use similar of stowage configs to what the herc sqns do now. It can bring its own replacement parts in, and I think can even fly in an Aurora prop, if needed. I bet the Casa can't, though I do not know. To sum up, I do not want to leave an aircraft half hunched over like a dog humping a football when I am about to parachute into trees @ night with 60-70 lbs of gear. Trust me, it sucks bad enough already.
 
Come on Gully - don't hold back - tell us how you really feel...  :-*

The Chevrolet Cavalier has been a best seller for years in North America - is it the best car or just really a good deal?  At present there is only one aircraft that is eligible for the FWSAR replacement project - let's hope we don't repeat the LSVW nonsense.
 
sandhurst91 said:
Clearly, all I'm hearing (and perhaps it's selective, so fire back please) are the folks at DND relegating Northern Canada to what they've always assumed it to be - a backwater not worth their time or efforts - using the argument that if you choose to live there, then accept the challenges that it presents. That's a crap argument - particularly for Canada's aboriginal communities, the companies that now work there and their employees, the airlines that fly northern routes, and the tourists that are making the North an increasingly desireable destination.

In support of this statement, while on Arctic Survival ( which BTW is only taught to Sartechs now, a whole new thread- any opinions?) I learned that the gov't "strongly encouraged" ie. coerced or forced, Natives to move to the High Arctic in the 50's to assert our claim of sovereignty(sp?) up there. So many people did not choose to live there. I believe in providing service to all Canadians. I would much prefer to rescue an Inuit hunter than a foreign fisherman who was fishing cod illegally off the Grand Banks. But the fact is there aren't really that many of them up there, and those up there are very adept at rescuing themselves, or not getting in trouble in the first place. Now the executives flying their Gulfstream in from Capetown to check out the diamond mine, not so adept, but do they require us to provide a 24/7/365 presence in the North? We are providing yeoman service with the Herc right now. This past winter 435 Sqn out of Winnipeg parachuted to a crashed helicopter up in the NWT. They were forced by high winds and whiteout conditions to remain hunkered down in a small tent for 5 days, then were evaced by an Otter on Skis. A Dependable, fast, Sar Dedicated Airframe will increase our response and presense in the North dramatically.
 
sandhurst91 said:
Clarify crappy when, according to the CASA folks on their site (www.c-295.ca), they've sold a wad more aircraft than the Alenia folks... and some to serve similar SAR roles. heck, even Lockheed recommended the CN-235 for the US Coast Guard over their own airframe. Granted, each country has specific requirements - but crappy is I think a little strong.

This argument constantly amazes me. Should not the folks in Canada's North have some kind of say in this, as that is where the increasing number of incidents are happening? Yeah, the airframe should satisfy very specific requirements - which both do, if you compare them not against the status quo but against the realities of Canada's SAR environment now but also the future.

Clearly, all I'm hearing (and perhaps it's selective, so fire back please) are the folks at DND relegating Northern Canada to what they've always assumed it to be - a backwater not worth their time or efforts - using the argument that if you choose to live there, then accept the challenges that it presents. That's a crap argument - particularly for Canada's aboriginal communities, the companies that now work there and their employees, the airlines that fly northern routes, and the tourists that are making the North an increasingly desireable destination.

Sandy.


Sandy, I've been flying SAR for 10 years on the CC-115 and the CC-130, the issue here is not whether or not Canada should have a SAR base in the North. The issue is to provide the best-fixed wing SAR asset for the Canadian public and to give the SAR crews the best resource available to do it. If you based a C-27J in the north, say out of Yellowknife, (by the way if there was a posting there I put in for it tomorrow) the North and the rest of Canada would be better served by its performance and capabilities, than that of the C-295. If you tasked both the C-27J and C-295 to fly from Yellowknife to Alert a distance of 1423nm the C-27J would arrive on scene and could be searching 1 hr ahead of the C-295. Time and speed in response of an emergency is a critical factor and should not be compromised. If you look at the stats, the C-27J outperforms C-295 in every way, (Check the comparison www.C-27J.ca) the C-295 doesn't even have an APU, and I've been into a few airstrips where a power cart wasn't always available. It's pretty hard to start an aircraft without a power cart or an APU!

The main 3 sales pitches the C-295 has is:
1 It's cargo space, it clams is compact and perfect for SAR and the C-27J 8ft 6' roof clearance is just extra space never needed for SAR and will double the cost of the FWSAR project.  I find this sales pitch Ignorant to what we do and misleading to others. I can tell you on our CC 130 SAR birds we have SAR equipment containers that are well over 8ft. The reason for this is to optimize floor space for rigging of air droppable equipment and dressing. I've talk with SAR Techs that have seen the cargo space of the 27J and the 295 and there back aches at the thought of working out of the C 295. To give you some insight as to how we are dress for a Para rescue operation, we have a 55 lb parachute plus 60/70 lbs of equipment and 15 to 20 lbs of environmental or protective clothing depending on what we're jumping into, that's 140 lbs +or - of equipment. Being able to stand and move freely with that type of weight is not a nicety it's a necessity and a mater of safety. 

2 C-295 also claims of be being so much cheaper and cost effective, even claiming C27J is twice as expensive. If this is true why haven't they provided any fanatical figures to prove to the Canadian public of the great deal there getting? What is the comparison of cost between the two aircraft? Does any one know? Is the cost in savings worth the compromise, remember this new SAR asset will be around for many years to come, 30, 40 years? Another thing to keep in mind about the other countries that have purchased the C-295 is they do not have Canada's massive land expanse and they do not carry out Para-Rescue operations. The only other country to carry out Para-Rescue operations is the US air force PJs and they use a HC-130 as their SAR bird.

3. Its other claim is that if it is purchased, that for it to be an effective FXWing SAR platform for Canada it would have to be located in the Northern Communities, there fore giving better SAR coverage than the C-27J. I find this funny because about a year and half ago I heard a rumor that came out of the FWSAR project in DND. That rumor was that nether the C-27J or the C-295 had the same endurance as the CC-130 and they were looking at positioning the new SAR aircraft further north, Cold Lake / Yellowknife? At that time C-27J was on its way to being fast tracked as the new SAR bird and projected to start delivery of the first 27J in the fall 2004/2005 until the program was stalled. Just because the C-295 jumped on the Northern bandwagon, doesn't mean it's their idea and the two go hand in hand. I think a C-27J in Yellowknife would be a great Idea.   

As for the C 295 being a crappy Joyce? In comparison to the capability of the C-27J I guess you could call it that.

If you could give the CC-115 the cruising speed of the CC 130, its pressurized cabin, and a little more width and range you'd have the perfect aircraft for SAR in Canada. Seeing how this plane doesn't exist the next best thing is the 27J. I'd rater make the compromise of flying the SAR fleet that we have in place now for the next 20 years that procuring the C-295. But given the currant situation this really isn't an option. 

Quote,  Sigh... I fear that the gov't will once again select the crappiest of the lot, just to appease those who may see choosing a vastly superior airframe as favoritism. KJ Gully        Nicely worded and funny enough it has the ring of truth.
 
Ottawa Bureaucrats in DND & Public Works GSC should be talking to SR Techs and Aircrews
about the fixed-wing replacement aircraft, before establishing a procurement policy - no question
they are focused on the "Spartan", but as of two weeks ago, the DASH 8 will be included in
the spec and bid process. Some bureaucrat in Ottawa will deny this, but it will be a fact - not
the first time Canada got caught to buy an aircraft not suitable for a particular role. MacLeod
 
The other day on "slash" I took the time to read through the entire thread. Interesting to see how it has evolved since the days of the "fast track" for replacement, seems forgotten now... I realized that there hasn't really been a solid discussion as to why I would prefer one over the other.
      #1. Rugged military construction. C27 is built as an airforce platform, designed for transport lift, and ruggedly constructed. The other contenders are modified airliners, and must be retro fitted to meet milspec. This WILL result in an inferior product.
      #2. Space. It has been debated back and forth quite a bit, but from the one working in the back, appropriate working space is imperitive. C27 provides full height headroom across almost the entire cabin. The C295 provides 6'3" headroom in the dead centre of the cabin, requiring a stooped posture for most of the time (@ just over 6', I am very near, if not over 6"3" with my helmet on, so would probably be hunched all the time.) C295's long cabin is not friendly, as it means the gear and the ramp are further apart. Also the narrow floor means more difficulty avoiding the cargo rollers.
      #3. APU, Auxilliary power unit. It is like a generator that self powers the plane when it is landed remote of services (more or less, an FE/ maintainer can help me here) It allows you to start engines. C27 has one, C295 ( civil aircraft, remember?) does not.
      #4. STOL ( short takeoff and landing) C27: T/O: 550 m, landing: 350 m. CASA: 844m T/O, 680m landing (their specs!) BTW, Buff T/O 377m,Landing 325m
      #5 Fuel dump capability, which lightens aircraft to safe landing weight in an emergency, C27:yes C295:no
        #6 Payload. C27: 11500kg C295:9250kg
        #7 Speed. C27: 315 kt, C295 260kt ( no contest)
        # loading speed. C27 provides a "kneeling" platform, ie it squats in the rear to make loading cargo much easier. C295 does not

we're probably gunna end up with the Dash 8 anyway, so I don't know why I'm taking the time...........

Gully
 
Just noticed that the issue of Northern basing appears to have made it into the Defence Policy Statement... looks like it's at least under consideration if nothing else...

all seems rather quiet on both contender sites... doldrums of summer: www.c-295.ca / www.c-27j.ca

----------

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Reports/dps/index_e.asp

The Air Forces (Regular and Reserve) will:

- place much greater emphasis on protecting Canada. As a result, the CF-18's primary mission will be the defence of Canada and North America. This will include maintaining CF-18 readiness in accordance with NORAD requirements;
- examine the acquisition of additional radars to provide better coverage of population centres and vital points;
- increase the surveillance and control of Canadian waters and the Arctic with modernized Aurora long-range maritime patrol aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles and satellites;

- enhance capabilities in the North by:
replacing the Twin Otter fleet with a more modern aircraft, and
considering the utility of basing search and rescue aircraft in the region;


- conduct search and rescue operations with the new Cormorant helicopter, as well as new fixed wing search and rescue aircraft;
- provide airlift anywhere in Canada for the deployment of the land and command elements of the Special Operations Group, the Standing Contingency Task Force, or one of the Mission-Specific Task Forces;
- provide a special operations aviation capability to the Special Operations Group for operations anywhere in Canada; and
- provide maritime and transport helicopters as the air contribution to the Standing Contingency Task Force or the Mission-Specific Task Forces.


 
Just so I'm certain I understand this....
1)  There is an allocated budget sitting in Ottawa gathering dust?
2)  The only delay is that politicians decided to intercede and force a bid situation when a suitable contract was already negotiated with LM?



Matthew.  ???
 
WOW After reading thru the 12 pages of this I really feel for you airforce guys - I feel your frustration on a number of 031 things...

Cheers
 
Cdn Blackshirt said:
Just so I'm certain I understand this....
1)   There is an allocated budget sitting in Ottawa gathering dust?
2)   The only delay is that politicians decided to intercede and force a bid situation when a suitable contract was already negotiated with LM?

If by delay you mean doing the appropriate thing and ensuring that government procurements are open and transparent and actually providing "Best value", then I think you do understand this... (that said, are we in for a helicopter repeat - I don't think Canadians will allow that to happen, though that's just my informed yet perhaps naive opinion)

Personally, I say put all potential solutions on the table and have at... If LM is the best option, then that'll come out in the wash. If CASA produces a plan that shows it can put more planes in more locations for equal value, without compromising the safety of the people who have to use the aircraft, then that'll come out in the wash also.

[Moderator note:  Edited only to differentiate between original quote, and reply - no content changed]
 
sandhurst91 said:
If by delay you mean doing the appropriate thing and ensuring that government procurements are open and transparent and actually providing "Best value", then I think you do understand this... (that said, are we in for a helicopter repeat - I don't think Canadians will allow that to happen, though that's just my informed yet perhaps naive opinion)

Personally, I say put all potential solutions on the table and have at... If LM is the best option, then that'll come out in the wash. If CASA produces a plan that shows it can put more planes in more locations for equal value, without compromising the safety of the people who have to use the aircraft, then that'll come out in the wash also.

The best way to avoid a repeat of the Sea King Replacement Fiasco is for the procurement people to actually take into account the views of the people who will have to use the equipment. If this project becomes a politically driven mess then it will become so because the contenders are trolling for political friends to push their products.  

The problem with more planes in more locations for equal value is that other options might include a few less planes in less locations for equal price and ostensibly a better airframe for the proposed role. The posts in this thread so far appear to reflect a professional opinion from parts of the SAR community that the CASA model has structural limitations which hinder or obstruct the performance of their mission while on station. This appears to be the main objection to the CASA model, along with other models as well.

On the other hand, the Spartan cannot be perfect. What are the airframe or other factors which might limit the desirability of the C27?    

[Moderator note:  Edited only to differentiate between original quote, and reply - no content changed]
 
whiskey601 said:
The best way to avoid a repeat of the Sea King Replacement Fiasco is for the procurement people to actually take into account the views of the people who will have to use the equipment. If this project becomes a politically driven mess then it will become so because the contenders are trolling for political friends to push their products.  

.... other options might include a few less planes in less locations for equal price and ostensibly a better airframe for the proposed role...  

Nicely put whiskey. 

Another option might be another airframe that could be double-hatted and procured in larger numbers as in the case of the C27 taking on some of the Tactical Transport tasks of the CC-130s, CC-115s and CC138s.

The suppliers can argue until the cows come home about the Statement of Requirements and the difficulty of meeting a constantly changing set of requirements, or aircraft and other kit being bought for requirements not stated but situations change quickly and policy changes faster.  It is up to them and the PWGSC to keep up if they wish to sell and if they wish to fill the needs of the CF today.  Not the needs of CF 10 years ago and not the probably incorrect appreciation of needs 10 years from now.

Quicherbichin and start serving your customer.
 
 
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2005/Sep/Battle_Heats.htm

Article here on the US Army's use of the C23 Sherpa in Iraq and its plan to replace them with 33 C-295s or C-27s

Apparently the C-23 has been getting more use, plane for plane, than any other in the field.
 
So the Sherpa took on the role of the Caribou in Vietnam. The short runway for the C-27 surprised me, as did the rather long runway for the 235/295. That being said, I wonder how often the C27 would max out in terms of its capacity in actual operations, and would the cheaper costing 235/295 perform the role adequately enough in comparison to the present role of the Sherpa in Iraq.

 
 
I think the C-27J would be more in the running for the ANG's C-23 replacement.  The utility ability of being able to transport an up-armoured Hummer would be a plus for any and all operations in Iraq or OEF. 

The Spartan's STOL ability is ideal - the EADS CASA POS is a STOL in name only - just about as STOL worthy as a Jazz Dash-8!

Add in the superior maneuverability and airspeed of the C-27J plus an adequate RWR/IR protection suite - the survivability factor of aircrews and cargo in theatre goes way up...
 
Did a search and didn't come up with the URL, so sorry if it's already been posted but; for those interested in what a spartan in Cdn SAR colours would look like and some info: www.c27j.ca  ... definatly isn't as good or rugged looking as those beautiful buffalo!
 
dammit! thanks for the correction there mike... proofread proofread proofread i guess!
 
Zoomie, can you comment on the runway length requirements for these proposed aircraft and perhaps discuss them in comparison to the Buffalo, Herc and other aircraft they are supposed to replace?  How critical of a factor is this for our SAR birds?
 
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