• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

FRS vs Mil Issue Radios

Status
Not open for further replies.
GO!!! said:
The point has been brought up that the PRR will replace the 521 - well, the eggheads tell us that since they are "not sufficiently encrypted" that they are "useless" so I'm not sure why we have them. A 50$ motorola still performs far better, so I'm not sure what the solution is.

I'm not at all familiar with the PRRs except for the fact that they exist, but they're not "sufficiently encrypted"? Encryption is encryption as far as I'm concerned, particularly for somthing designed for section level comms at short range... bizzare.

I'm guessing the solution is the $50 off the shelf motorola. Can't be that hard to add encryption to them in our digital age.
 
First of all, some comments I've made on the 521 before: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26224/post-161178.html#msg161178

Second, to respond to Allan Luomala's post of a few pages back:

"I'm sure everyone remembers the kafuffle over the use of FRS (Cobra/Motorola/Radio Shack models, etc) radios in training areas and in ops. I heard so many (admittedly unofficial) reasons for why they couldn't be used: they interfered with "official" frequencies. They weren't "secure" (which falls into the 'Well, duh!!!!!' category). They caused ovarian cancer in males (I just made that one up, but no doubt it has been used). Personally, I think it was because "they" lost control over the air-waves."

You're partly right, but there is good reason to want to control the air waves.  Ignoring the obvious concerns so far as EMSEC is concerned, FRS radios are intended for use by civvies out for hikes with thier families.  Having military users on those freqs is just not kosher.  A few years ago I was on a winter warfare exercise where a few yahoos decided to bring FRS radios with them.  One particular mama's boy who was out there got a little chilly and decided that he'd had enough patrolling for that day, so he called one of his buddies up on the FRS claiming to be hurt.  His buddy wasn't the only one who heard this- a bunch of civvies who lived in that area heard it as well, and decided to launch a rescue mission.  Within an hour, we had civvy snowmobiles and quads bearing down on us from all directions.  The resultant embarrasment and PR debacle was the sole fault of one MIR commando with a $50 FRS radio. 

If you absolutely have to use something other than an IRIS system radio, get ahold of some Motorola HT 1000's and have them programmed to use frequencies that are already allocated to your unit.  At least you'll be transmitting in the right frequency band.


 
You're partly right, but there is good reason to want to control the air waves.  Ignoring the obvious concerns so far as EMSEC is concerned, FRS radios are intended for use by civvies out for hikes with thier families.  Having military users on those freqs is just not kosher.  A few years ago I was on a winter warfare exercise where a few yahoos decided to bring FRS radios with them. One particular mama's boy who was out there got a little chilly and decided that he'd had enough patrolling for that day, so he called one of his buddies up on the FRS claiming to be hurt.  His buddy wasn't the only one who heard this- a bunch of civvies who lived in that area heard it as well, and decided to launch a rescue mission.  Within an hour, we had civvy snowmobiles and quads bearing down on us from all directions.  The resultant embarrasment and PR debacle was the sole fault of one MIR commando with a $50 FRS radio. 

So, because of one particular example, who should forsake the rest of the "non-mama's boys" who would use them responsibly??? The hand holding that we do in the military has brought us to this pathetic result. Hammer the people who abuse the system, and let the other 99.9% use the equipment that works (if it's a $50 FRS radio, with a battery that lasts more than 15minutes, or a $200 pair of boots that one can purchase without having to jump through a million hoops).

Let's bring this back to civilian GPS's fellers (or split it to the inadequacies of radio equipment)

Al
 
The FRS horse is totally out of the barn anyway - especially when it is married to your civvie GPS like my Rino 520.

DG
 
Allan Luomala said:
So, because of one particular example, who should forsake the rest of the "non-mama's boys" who would use them responsibly??? The hand holding that we do in the military has brought us to this pathetic result. Hammer the people who abuse the system, and let the other 99.9% use the equipment that works (if it's a $50 FRS radio, with a battery that lasts more than 15minutes, or a $200 pair of boots that one can purchase without having to jump through a million hoops).

Let's bring this back to civilian GPS's fellers (or split it to the inadequacies of radio equipment)

Al

The point is that FRS radios are licensed for use by mom and pop, not us.  Military use of that band is not only inappropriate, but can also cause problems.  We have frequencies allocated to us, and we should use them.  Your unit has access to the Motorolas I'm talking about: you can either buy some outright if your budget can handle it, or you can arrange to borrow them from your base sig sqn or ASU. 
 
willy said:
The point is that FRS radios are licensed for use by mom and pop, not us.  Military use of that band is not only inappropriate, but can also cause problems.  We have frequencies allocated to us, and we should use them.  Your unit has access to the Motorolas I'm talking about: you can either buy some outright if your budget can handle it, or you can arrange to borrow them from your base sig sqn or ASU. 

What is the range of the average FRS? 2 to 3 miles, on a good day?? So, when I am setting up an OP in the middle of the training area, and not wanting to dick around with the issue (when it gets issued) junk that we have, or have access to, I'll think of that. Or when I'm overseas, wanting to track down a soldier, somewhere on the godforsaken camp without having to wander aimlessly, I'll think about mom and pop keeping tabs on Jimmy out for a hike.

The point of my tirade is, if it comes down to buying what is available, or waiting for Uncle Stephen to provide for us (after 15 years of procurement hell, T&E, attempting to sign for it, no wait..... make sure we have the training on it first, then trying to pry it out of the stores). Nah, I'll flout the rules, and use what Cobra/Motorola/et al have been good enough to produce to satisfy the needs that we have right now. Which is, a means of non-securely communicating, in an obviously non-secure manner of: "Bloggins get back to the troop area for an O Gp, RFN!!!!" or "OK, are you ready to switch the radar to active???"

Soldiers have found ways of going outside of the normal channels to get what works, from before the Roman era until now, and always will. Whether it's right or wrong is irrelevant. Trying to stop that is like trying to stop the tides.

Al
 
+1 to everything allan just said.

Until some Sig O crawls out of his truck and actually drives to the location of the illegal radios, I will continue to use mine, and I'm sure my platoon will as well.

Until then, the jimmies will just have to content themselves with constantly complaining about "unauthorised radio use in the area of GR XXX XXX".

Buy me a radio and GPS that works, or stop complaining about the ones that I use - FULL STOP.
 
First off, I'm sorry that this topic has made you guys so emotional.  It really wasn't my intent to get anyone's face in a knot.

I'm fully aware of the limitations of current issue radio systems, despite the "defense" of the 521 I posted above.  I understand that you guys have a job that you're trying to do, and that you're probably often annoyed by unreliable 521's etc.  It's understandable, and if I had the cash to buy better radios for the CF, then I probably would.  What I think you guys might fail to appreciate is that sigs like me who caution against using FRS might also have a job to do, and that we may be doing it for good reason.  The FRS issue is significant, and really isn't in any way similar to the topic of private purchase boots, despite your claim to the contrary, Allan.

All you need in order to be an ad hoc EW operator is a RF receiver.  I have personally seen locals engaged in suspicious "receiving" activity while overseas, and if you want to know more about that, then let's find some way to discuss the matter offline.  I hope you can accept it if I tell you that even the most backward enemy can have (at the very least) a rudimentary EW capability, and that FRS is therefore a stupid way for you to communicate while overseas.  It isn't even a good idea when you're out and about domestically.  If you don't want to hear that then fine, I'm not going to argue with you any further.  I'd suggest not letting your formation frequency manager find out what you're doing, though.
 
willy said:
First off, I'm sorry that this topic has made you guys so emotional.  It really wasn't my intent to get anyone's face in a knot.

I'm fully aware of the limitations of current issue radio systems, despite the "defense" of the 521 I posted above.  I understand that you guys have a job that you're trying to do, and that you're probably often annoyed by unreliable 521's etc.  It's understandable, and if I had the cash to buy better radios for the CF, then I probably would.  What I think you guys might fail to appreciate is that sigs like me who caution against using FRS might also have a job to do, and that we may be doing it for good reason.  The FRS issue is significant, and really isn't in any way similar to the topic of private purchase boots, despite your claim to the contrary, Allan.

All you need in order to be an ad hoc EW operator is a RF receiver.  I have personally seen locals engaged in suspicious "receiving" activity while overseas, and if you want to know more about that, then let's find some way to discuss the matter offline.  I hope you can accept it if I tell you that even the most backward enemy can have (at the very least) a rudimentary EW capability, and that FRS is therefore a stupid way for you to communicate while overseas.  It isn't even a good idea when you're out and about domestically.  If you don't want to hear that then fine, I'm not going to argue with you any further.  I'd suggest not letting your formation frequency manager find out what you're doing, though.

I highlited the points in your text above and will touch on each:

1) To you it is different, to me it isn't. To a supply tech (some, anyway) the thought of me buying unauthorized boots is the same as me buying an unauthorized radio (FRS) and using it: sacriledge. ANd as many arguments against the boots can be brought up as for against the radio, just as valid to the supply tech as to you (against the radio).

2) You are stuck on transmit only. Switch to receive. Myself (and others) have indicated that we would only use these for non-secure, admin style traffic: finding people in camp, setting up OP (in other words: short range comsm). You insult our intelligence by implying that we would transmit our grid, or classified information willy-nilly. Sure, you can give me examples of it happening: those people are morons, who should have the radio (the bigger the better) jammed up their keister.

3) IF the formation frequency manager can find me when I'm using these things (FRS, civ GPS), I will ask him/her to bring along working, useful, reliable gear to replace what I felt forced to purchase, leave it with my troops, replace me while the MP's drag me off to jail, and do my job while I'm gone. Because, IMO, he/she probably isn't doing their best in THEIR job to get the goodies out to the troops. Refer to the last line in my post about 5 posts up.

There is a reason why we get emotional about this, in case you haven't figured it out yet: we have a job to do. Which is "Mission first". And when Johnny Q Public has access to higher quality (though less secure) equipment, available at WalMart, fer crissakes, that says there is something wrong. How long does it take to bring something into service. Just like computers and all the workarounds that hackers have for security issues, the enemy will find a way to crack the most secure comms gear security. Don't pretend it is inpenetrable. We don't spend our days quoting policy, trying to enforce arcane rules, using outrageous examples, in the event that MAY happen. You have your job, I have mine. I won't comment on your crew commanding skills; don't comment on how I get my job done.
Al
 
OK Allan


You are not taking into any account any of the Comms Directives and Policies of the CF with your little rant on FRS systems.  If you choose to ignore them or are just ignorant of them is of no concern to this Topic.


Edited for thread continuity
 
WRT the ranges of FRS radios they range from 3km to 20km. They are not secure but if you operate on at the high and low ends of the band with, with the use of the 200 different sub channels you usually will not be picked up by Joe civy out camping with his friends. THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED OUTSIDE OF TRAINING, or aid ops in Canada
 
FRS/GRMS doesn't have subchannels. It has special squelch tones prepended onto the transmission, such that any radio set to a different squelch tone will ignore that transmission.

That's an important fact to keep in mind, and SOP is to run the radio with the "subchannel" squelch off so one can monitor who else might be on the channel with you.

As I said before, the FRS horse is out of the barn. Effective comns isn't a nice-to-have; it's a safety essential. If the Queen's kit isn't getting the job done, then we are forced to adapt.

DG
 
There's still the use of veiled speech to fall back on, if your old enough to remember it, before some wizard stated our comms were secure and veiled speech wasn't needed. It's not secure, but obscure enough that, used properly, Joe Civvie won't know what your talking about. You can also use BLACKHORSE for grids, but these same wizards don't like that either, cause they don't have your key.
 
RecceDG said:
FRS/GRMS doesn't have subchannels. It has special squelch tones prepended onto the transmission, such that any radio set to a different squelch tone will ignore that transmission.

That's an important fact to keep in mind, and SOP is to run the radio with the "subchannel" squelch off so one can monitor who else might be on the channel with you.

As I said before, the FRS horse is out of the barn. Effective comns isn't a nice-to-have; it's a safety essential. If the Queen's kit isn't getting the job done, then we are forced to adapt.

DG

This is an excellent point: how many lives have been saved (civilian or otherwise) by the use of cell-phones (or FRS style radios). And so it goes for the military. I can't wait until the first example (assuming it hasn't happened yet) of a soldier's bacon being saved because of non-issue, non-secure comms gear (the FRS family of radio's in particular). What will the nay-sayers say then??? No doubt they'll charge said soldier for a Comms Security violation.....

When I was in Bosnia (both 97 and 00-01) the comms sucked mad ass. There were more than a few "dead zones" that weren't covered by the camps and/or RRB's. In 2000, we got issued SatPhones (the ancient ones that come in a big case, with the flat antenna), but they linked to us Banja Luka, to a British operator, who probably didn't have clue one who we were, let alone where in our AOR we would be calling from. That was back-up Plan A. Plan B involved giving us a phone card for the local civilian phone network. Yes, you read that right. When the shit hits the fan, and your comms crap out, make like ET and phone home. That's reasonably secure, right?!?!? Granted, this was all better than nothing, but when you saw Joe Blow celebrities with their Gucci sat-phone, the size of a largish cell-phone, flashing it as a status symbol, and you have the big honking sat phone which probably had zero range (we never did get to test "fire" them, as it was deemed "too expensive" so who knows if they even worked....), it really made you feel like you'd be hanging with your ass out to the wind if you lost comms, or rolled the vehicle and needed emergency help. But back in camp, everyone had access to the welfare sat-phones. Welfare or operationally effective comms....... welfare wins.

Al
 
recceguy said:
There's still the use of veiled speech to fall back on, if your old enough to remember it, before some wizard stated our comms were secure and veiled speech wasn't needed. It's not secure, but obscure enough that, used properly, Joe Civvie won't know what your talking about. You can also use BLACKHORSE for grids, but these same wizards don't like that either, cause they don't have your key.

This is an aspect of the "new" comms world that I don't much like, either. ASSUMING that we are all on a secure net, and speaking that way all the time takes away a vital skillset that would be require when operating in a "degraded mode of operations": non-secure (for whatever reason) comms. As recceguy mentioned, with good veiled speech, it is hard to figure out what someone is talking about (with some people that includes even when they are transmitting in plain text  :P ) even when you know the army guy lingo, let alone someone who just happens to be listening in (eavesdropping, as it were).

This is one area where a certain amount of resistance to change probably isn't a bad thing: it's like keeping an ancient language alive, and passing it off to the next generation to keep it alive, in case it is needed to save their hides.

Al

 
TCCCS was foisted on us by CDC. The project guys were totally hoodwinked right from the start. The system was designed in a vacuum - it can't interoperate with ANYBODY. On OP Apollo they had to get a SINCGARS system installed in the CP so that our guys could talk to the Americans. The whole project should be scrapped and replaced - the only thing keeping it going is the ridiculous amount of money spent thus far.

Here is the way to keep people from using FRS:

https://secure.thalescomminc.com/cart2/tcDesc.asp

http://www.rfcomm.harris.com/products/tactical-radio-communications/#1

there is no other system out there that can do what TCCCS does in one package at the same weight (that I know of anyway), the 77 set with crypto was much heavier than the 522

See above...  :P

Can't hook a laptop up to your TCCCS manpack... or use it for SATCOM...




 
I'll take unsecure FRS comms over NO comms anyday, and that's what I'm doing now. I could go on such a rant, but will restrain myself in the name of OPSEC. (btw I'm not working in a Canadian org, so it's not a CF shortcoming I'm refering to)

The cell phones over here are unsecure, and known to be monitored, but no one has a problem using those either...
 
another problem with FRS is if you are outside of N Am, the locals may reserve those freqs for other purposes, depending on where you are. i know that if you used a canadian or us-bought frs in japan, for ex, you would not be very popular with the coast guard, since their rescue services use that band. probly not a big issue in afghanistan or somewhere like that, but something to keep in mind if you're thinking about taking one anywhere overseas
 
Can't hook a laptop up to your TCCCS manpack

you can with the proper cable.


Why FRS radios are a bad thing in operation because of the following

1) the 521 is designed only to communicate within 100 meters with the stubby whip, and if your 522 craps out, you can use the 3 foot whip to get 3 km in an emergency

this is important so that:

a) the enemy has to be within 100 meters to Direction Find you, With an FRS they could be 3-5 km away. (DF Equipment accurate up to 10 figures costs about the same as a couple tickets from Saudia Arabia to New York)

If you use a FRS radio the en force potential could get the locations accurate within a meter or two of every trench, latrine, tent, etc just by sitting 3 km away quietly for a few days.

b) the FRS radio cannot be encrypted, so not only will you bleed information, such as names, voices, call signs, structure of your area, who is in charge of who, you can also be seriously messed around with.

Ie “Cpl Bloggins, Report to the oGroup” would be taped and dissected into syllables, as with every single transmission you make, then after about a week of recording, they now start messing with you, every 5 minutes your voice comes across the air, and orders your troops about. You attempt to stop them by saying “All C/S this is ____ I’m being imitated disregard” they stop… you think smugly to yourself, what do the Jimmies know HAH!” then you come under fire, you use your FRS to issue an order and damned if your voice doesn’t come over the air and tell them to disregard as someone is imitating you.

c) If you take the time to use and learn the 521 it is a very reliable piece of kit as is the 522 the “it’s unreliable stance” is from people unmotivated to learn and appreciate a fine piece of kit. The argument is similar to “we should go back to the Lee Enfield, we will never use the Auto Function, and the Repetition is too complicated and the rifle requires so much more maint and care to use. It’s a waste of my time” sigs are just as bad for this attitude, but we’re starting to come around.

d) using the 521 for anything other than section comms is not what it was designed for, the reason the 521 exists is so that you can talk to everyone in your section with a whisper, and no one except your section can hear it Period.

e) the separate RX/TX settings are important as they allow you to utilize RRB more fully… you want to keep your section informed as well as communicate with HQ, without giving away your position or hauling a 522 around the trenches

one example:

1) set up a 522 RRB relay (cable, press RRB so r on each radio, set one to pltn freq, one to alt freq)
2) set your sections radios to Rx/tx on pltn freq.
3) the pltn is too far away to hear them, that’s fine, set the 2nd channel on each radio to R/X pltn freq, and T/X on alt freq
4) when you switch to ch2 freq, it goes to the RRB set, in one 522 and out the other at highpower, your section and platoon will all hear from the High Power TX, any comms from your section or platoon will go back through to you.
5) the pltn reply will come in and all will hear it from the pltn direct.
6) This stops the Enemy from DF your exact trench, etc locations and allows you to keep your section in the loop with the pltn. If you throw your RRB 522s behind a hill, the enemy might not even hear your outgoing tx.

Ask your attached sigs guys to set this up for you if you don’t have the time to learn to do this yourself, takes about 5 min.

The 522 is easy to use.

To set it up like a 77Set or FRS

1) set channel to CH 1
2) set mode to PT
3) turn it on
4) punch in freq

done.

To Add Extra channels.

1) after setting channel 1 as above, rotate volume to HSET
2) switch to each channel
3) press up key, then enter channel, repeat for each channel.

Your sigs guys should load crypto for you, and hopping or anything else you need, and the only thing you need to know is press H/h until it says h if you are hopping with the control station, and press FXC otherwise. Follow CEOIs

To set up RRB
1) join 2 522s with RRB cable
2) set each to different freq
3) press RRB on each until r is on both

Done

The 522 while heavier than the 77 set, a full complement of batteries with the 522 is lighter than the same with the 77 set.

99% of comms problems stem from bad batteries, don’t give up on the radio, tag the bad batteries and get them replaced.

Test your radios before you go to the field, you wouldn’t take an untested weapon to the field, don’t do the same with your radios, tag and send to be replaced if N/S.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top