Firefighters' fitness test ruled discriminatory

[Teflon]

I'd like to think that there are people out there that could not pass the test capable of doing the job of a firefighter when push comes to shove, the same as some who could pass the test...Who knows maybe even better??? Just a thought...I don't believe firefighting is a purely physical thing...I can only assume it would be about making many snap decisions also...Just cuz you are a muscle head doesn't mean you are going to do a great job even though the physical aspect of firefighting is likely quite high...

But what good is the ability to make snap decisions if you can't do the job quickly due to physical limitations? As I have said before I would much rather have a fire fighter who could do his/her fitness test come rescue me then one who was close but still failed.  I know it's not very pc to descriminate against people who arn't up to a standard but the world is full of loosers who can't make the grade and sit and whine about how unfair things are. yes A fire fighter has to be able to make snap decisions but he/she must also be physically able to act on those decisions as well.

 

[GO!!!]

I'd like to think that there are people out there that could not pass the test capable of doing the job of a firefighter when push comes to shove, the same as some who could pass the test...Who knows maybe even better??? Just a thought...I don't believe firefighting is a purely physical thing...I can only assume it would be about making many snap decisions also...Just cuz you are a muscle head doesn't mean you are going to do a great job even though the physical aspect of firefighting is likely quite high...

When "push comes to shove" the fitter guy will always win!

This is the same refrain I hear all the time from PT test failures. They are the only ones saying "soldiering is'nt only about being in shape.....look at so and so - he got 98 on the cooper's test but he's a pump...I shine in the field, not in the gym..." Fitness is attainable to every able bodied person - they just have to want it.

If you are going to do a job that requires fitness of body and mind, that is what it has to be - both, at the same time, with no exceptions. Dumb soldiers are'nt much good, but neither are fat and weak ones that have an IQ of 130.

 

[sigtech]

If you are going to do a job that requires fitness of body and mind, that is what it has to be - both, at the same time, with no exceptions. Dumb soldiers are'nt much good, but neither are fat and weak ones that have an IQ of 130.

Now come on Both have there uses..............

i.e. "never trust a skinny cook" huh huh

and well I know there are alot of smart guys that are grunts but most of them leave and become techs leaving the guy that is strong like truck smart like stick...........

The only thing is I want to adjust you can't really say "fat" weak is fine I have seen to many guys that are "fat" that are in the forces , firefighters police force etc that supprise the hell out of you. I don't know how many times I have seen a fat guy and thought well he won't be keeping up on this run ...... as he flys pass me on the run ..... don't you hate when that happens  :-\

All and all though if you can't pass the test you don't belong and the pass mark should be set at a point that even if a person "just" passes they will be able to do the job. Also keep it equal I don't care if you are a women or what if you are going to be a firefighter or a grunt or a cop you are doing the same job as the 6'5 monster standing beside you , so pass the same test.

Not very PC but let me tell you I have slugged my sorry azz threw some hellish runs ( I am short and can't run  :crybaby beside guys that are 6'0 and run for fun ( sick buggers) why because we are expected to it is part of the job. So if you can't do it get to the point either hit the road and get to the point were you are able or well Tim's are always looking for new blood, and hey you can now going to Afgan with them.

 

[armyvern]

Now come on Both have there uses..............

They certainly do.

and well I know there are alot of smart guys that are grunts but most of them leave and become techs leaving the guy that is strong like truck smart like stick...........

Funny that you don't have a problem making an assinine statement like this (emphasis mine) but...

The only thing is I want to adjust you can't really say "fat" weak is fine I have seen to many guys that are "fat" that are in the forces , firefighters police force etc that supprise the hell out of you. I don't know how many times I have seen a fat guy and thought well he won't be keeping up on this run ...... as he flys pass me on the run ..... don't you hate when that happens  :-\

You don't think the word "fat" is appropriate in some cases. Kind of like a double standard isn't it? I suggest a good look at your reflection and mindset in the mirror may be appropriate.

 

[sigtech]

They certainly do.

Funny that you don't have a problem making an assinine statement like this (emphasis mine) but...

You don't think the word "fat" is appropriate in some cases. Kind of like a double standard isn't it? I suggest a good look at your reflection and mindset in the mirror may be appropriate.

I am sorry it was a asinine statement , I made a attempt at a little humour, at no time did I mean to offend. The statement comes from 8 years with the combat arms and working beside some super nice guys that not the smartest people in the world but would be the first person I would want to have covering my back.

Now for Fat being appropriate...... my statement was meant that not all people that are over weight are weak and unable to complete PT tests. The statement wasn't directed at a person I.e you sir/madam are fat that would be inappropriate.

If you are going to do a job that requires fitness of body and mind, that is what it has to be - both, at the same time, with no exceptions. Dumb soldiers are'nt much good, but neither are fat and weak ones that have an IQ of 130.

This statment was meant to point out to GO!!! that a fat and weak don't always go together, I to have believed that in the past and been proven wrong. One of my best friends could be considered rotund or husky yet that little short bugger out run most people.

 

[GO!!!]

Sigtech

Whew, fortunately, you took your powerful intellect elsewhere it was evidently being wasted in the Cbt Arms.  :

To keep you from splitting any more hairs, and  clarify my point, fat OR weak soldiers are of little use, even if they are as smart as you. Additionally, the fat guy who can lift a truck is of little use when he collapsed from exhaustion 200m up the mountain, just like the marathon runner who is unable to lift a heavy barrack box. Overall fitness is the key, and unbalanced soldiers are just as bad as obese/unfit ones.

Yes, yes, we all know one fat guy who can run marathons, smoke a pack a day, and eat Pizza morning, noon and nite, but that is the exception that proves the rule. Most obese soldiers have their work ethic and self control reflected in their waistline.

 

[GUNS]

+1 ushup:

 

[battleaxe]

I'd like to think that there are people out there that could not pass the test capable of doing the job of a firefighter when push comes to shove, the same as some who could pass the test...Who knows maybe even better??? Just a thought...I don't believe firefighting is a purely physical thing...I can only assume it would be about making many snap decisions also...Just cuz you are a muscle head doesn't mean you are going to do a great job even though the physical aspect of firefighting is likely quite high...

Most (all) professions or trades have both physical and academic standards that must be met.
I would think that firefighters who actually get into the trade and work actively in it have passed academic, theory, medical (first aid), and practical training standards..in addition to passing the physical standards. ff149 or Scott, please set me straight here if I'm too far off base.

Professional organizations are just as strict with academics as they are with physical requirements.  As long as there are people out there who can meet all the standards, both physical and academic, IMO, they should leave well enough alone.

There are a lot of very smart and strong people out there- I'd pick them to come rescue my children in an emergency, over someone who had to fight for special consideration, if I had the choice.

For those who cannot pass the physical requirements and are upset because firefighting is a lifelong career goal, they can either work very hard to rectify the situation or remain involved in a different capacity-disaster management, EMS, I don't know...just offering suggestions...but they should do something that they are physically able to do. They don't have to necessarily give up their lifelong dream completely -just modify it to something more realistic.

Just my opinion.


 

 

[Scott]

Most (all) professions or trades have both physical and academic standards that must be met.
I would think that firefighters who actually get into the trade and work actively in it have passed academic, theory, medical (first aid), and practical training standards..in addition to passing the physical standards. ff149 or Scott, please set me straight here if I'm too far off base.

In a word, yes. Some limitations may be overlooked with some TI, in my experience but your above thought seems to be the norm. Having said that, I must remind you that I am not in the CF or civvy DND role...

I started as municipal and moved into industrial/oilfield. I found the transition to be easy, but there were still things to learn and different specialties to focus on. I had to do more learning when I got into forestry and even more when I first flew offshore and none of them really related to each other. I have been a firefighter for eight years now, have seen some big ones on the rigs and bigger ones in the trees but still wouldn't dream of fighting an aircraft fire just as fellas like ff149 do, I am not trained for it - and that is just one example.

While working Helitack I had the chance to be partnered with a guy who had 25 years in. There was nothing about a forest fire's behavior or how to work around helicopters that he couldn't tell you. But 25 years had taken their toll on him and he preferred to let me carry the gear while he scouted or decided on placement - hell, worked great, I burned off excess energy and got to watch someone who really knew what they were doing get the job done. I learned alot from him, alot of the little tricks and tidbits that you never seem to get in courses. That being said, I also ha no doubt that if he had to put the muscle to work he could.

There are a lot of very smart and strong people out there- I'd pick them to come rescue my children in an emergency, over someone who had to fight for special consideration, if I had the choice.

Just like you wouldn't want me, the muttonhead, getting special consideration to perform surgery on those same children, riiiight?

There is a HELL of alot more that goes into being a firefighter today than there was 10 - 15 - 20 years ago. More academics, more specialized courses, new technologies that require smarts, new standards that require relearning, new ways of managing the unit. But there is still a base requirement for some level of physical fitness, depending on what you are doing. It will always be there, it is never going to go away and I have yet to come ac cross a fire that didn't take some amount of effort to control. Thing is, we don't train for the easy ones.

 

[sigtech]

Sigtech

Whew, fortunately, you took your powerful intellect elsewhere it was evidently being wasted in the Cbt Arms.  :

Hey now let's retract the claws

All and all most of us posting here agree in our own way.

The PT test shouldn't be reduced or changed, one standard for the job and keep that standard high

 

[old fart]

"and well I know there are alot of smart guys that are grunts but most of them leave and become techs leaving the guy that is strong like truck smart like stick...........

What kind of a BS comment is this; obviously it has the weight of your experience behind it! 

Some of the brightest and best I have soldiered with over 28+ years (Reg) are career infantrymen, and by choice.

"Most" my  a_se.

Old fart out.

CHIMO-AIRBORNE-UBIQUE 

 

[ArmyRick]

I can't beleive the PC of the original post on this thread...

 

[Long in the tooth]

I'll be a flamer and throw out the rediculous again.  The MO Capt can only do 13 pushups.  Punt?

 

[GO!!!]

I'll be a flamer and throw out the rediculous again.  The MO Capt can only do 13 pushups.  Punt?

Nope.

He should be put on recorded warning, kept at his current pay rate (no yearly incentive) and given mandatory remedial trg, on his own time to meet the minimum standard.

 

[ZipperHead]

Nope.

He should be put on recorded warning, kept at his current pay rate (no yearly incentive) and given mandatory remedial trg, on his own time to meet the minimum standard.

This concept (no giving people a financial reward for complacency: not AUTOMATICALLY increasing their incentive level) is something a former RSM of my Regt had brought forward as a means of making people earn their pay. Indeed, the system states that the incentives shouldn't be automatic, but based on performance. But what, pray tell, would we do with a person who has maxed out their incentives (i.e 4th incentive for all ranks but Capt, which has 10 levels)?!?! The answer we were given was relatively simple: reduction in rank, and when they start out again at their former rank, they are at the first pay level. Whether this would be enforceable (vested rights and other union-esque crap) is another issue, but hitting people where it hurts (their wallet) is usually incentive (there's that word again) enough to get them to perform at the minimum standard.

On a related note, molly-coddling these certain trades (MO, etc) because we are afraid of losing them is only giving them more power. As an example, here in Gagetown, "they" are trying to enforce the requirement to back into (or place your vehicle into) your parking space so that you can drive (not back) out of it. Pretty unenforceable, right?!!? I thought so, to, until the MP's started issuing warnings that stated (more or less) that you would lose the RIGHT [Edit: I meant PRIVILEGE, but maybe my natural sense of sarcasm took me to the the opposite meaning than I intended) to enter the base with your vehicle. Well, didn't a (civilian) MO say "Well, if they don't let me bring my vehicle onto base [because he didn't want to go through the onerous task of backing his vehicle into his spot], I just won't come into work!!!". Yeah, that would fly. And the base clinic is less than a km from the main gate (and off-base parking). But, knowing how "we" molly-coddle these so very important people, they would likely let him come onto base with his car (whether or not he would comply with the regulation) because he is oh so valuable to the war effort.

Because I am cynical, I think that it is usually easier to placate those that are willing to go through litigation or the grievance system, so they will keep standards low, or not enforce them. Hence, I suspect WOG (kinda ironic [Yet another edit: I keep forgetting the definition of irony ( Irony: 1. Expression in which the intended meaning of the words is the direct opposite of their usual sense.  2. An event or result that is the opposite of what is expected, so I actually meant "telling", I think] how that name becomes that acronym, no?!?!  ;D ) is right: they won't punt those that can't meet the standard, because we need every warm (yet sweaty, out of breath) body we can muster.

AL

 

[xo31@711ret]

Hmmm...Allan, I wonder which civvy MO yer talking about LOL; then again, the greater % of physicians are (were when I was there) civilains... ;D

 

[GO!!!]

THREAD HIJACK

Allan, are you stating that it is now a standing order in Gagetown that you must back your civilian vehicle into parking spaces on the base, by order of the powers that be?

What led to that?

 

[ZipperHead]

THREAD HIJACK

Allan, are you stating that it is now a standing order in Gagetown that you must back your civilian vehicle into parking spaces on the base, by order of the powers that be?

What led to that?

Yes, this is indeed the case. I forget under whose authority this was implemented (so many commanders on this base.....), but it is intended as a safety/emergency issue (driving out of parking spaces being faster/safer than backing out in case of an emergency). The next time I'm on Base I will have a look see at the placards (placed in areas where civilians and the like would need to be told of this policy, such as Base Gym) to see under whose authority this was decreed.

Personally, I agree with this policy, as it is far safer than the "normal" civvy fashion in which people park their vehicles, but I thought the first time that I read that :"That is COMPLETELY unenforceable!!!". Obviously, somebody put some brainpower to use to come up with a means of enforcing it (removing the PRIVILEGE (I amended my post above) of parking on the base.). Time will tell if there are any teeth behind the bark on this particular SO.

AL

 

[George Wallace]

THREAD HIJACK

Allan, are you stating that it is now a standing order in Gagetown that you must back your civilian vehicle into parking spaces on the base, by order of the powers that be?

What led to that?

GO!!!

That has been the policy in Gagetown since the 1980's.  Especially in the Winter, when many storms literally bury the Base, and cars freeze up.  It was a common sense thing, so that you could boust your car, or tow it out for the Snow Removal crews to do their thing. 

There was a policy at one time in the early '80's that the Base would 'Stand Down' if there was a Major Storm, but Canada AM put  a stop to that when they broadcast that a little snow storm had crippled the Base.  What had been an effective and efficient method of clearing the Base and getting it operational by allowing the Snow Removal Crews to get all the roads and parking lots cleared, and everyone having easy access to the Base the next day, now came to an end.  The next Storm to hit, was a 'normal working day'.  People's cars were stuck on the main roads, blocking entrances to parking lots, in ditches......basically everywhere but where they should have been.  Snow Removal Crews couldn't even clear the main road.  They couldn't access any of the parking lots, and it took over a week to get the Base into order again, where before it was done in under 24 hours.  Thank you Media.

Gagetown has the policy for a good reason.  It is 'idiot' outsiders who put a wrench in the works when they comment on things they nothing about.

How many times have we heard that before?

 

[aesop081]

GO!!!

That has been the policy in Gagetown since the 1980's.  Especially in the Winter, when many storms literally bury the Base, and cars freeze up.  It was a common sense thing, so that you could boust your car, or tow it out for the Snow Removal crews to do their thing. 

There was a policy at one time in the early '80's that the Base would 'Stand Down' if there was a Major Storm, but Canada AM put  a stop to that when they broadcast that a little snow storm had crippled the Base.  What had been an effective and efficient method of clearing the Base and getting it operational by allowing the Snow Removal Crews to get all the roads and parking lots cleared, and everyone having easy access to the Base the next day, now came to an end.  The next Storm to hit, was a 'normal working day'.   People's cars were stuck on the main roads, blocking entrances to parking lots, in ditches......basically everywhere but where they should have been.  Snow Removal Crews couldn't even clear the main road.  They couldn't access any of the parking lots, and it took over a week to get the Base into order again, where before it was done in under 24 hours.  Thank you Media.

Gagetown has the policy for a good reason.  It is 'idiot' outsiders who put a wrench in the works when they comment on things they nothing about.

How many times have we heard that before?

George, when i left sunny Gagetown in 2004 the policy of backing in was in place so thats nothing new.  As far as snow storms go, the base would have the local radio stations broadcast " all non-essential personel are not to report until 1300 to allow the base to be cleared of snow" so i doubt that the media had a lasting negative impact.

But i digress......we are way off topic