Federal Government & Union spar over returning to office

[Navy_Pete]

FWIW I can anecdotally confirm what that article is saying but I'd like to add something I think a lot of people are suspecting. For context, my team is 15 people and we have gone from full remote to hybrid and now back to full in person.

Our takeaway is as follows; our best employees were consistently doing the same volume and quality of work at home or at the office. Our weaker staff were significantly worse when remote. We had some internal discussions and the excuses were plenty but ultimately these weaker employees need the ability to quickly ask for guidance/help from coworkers sitting next to them (not leadership) or they flounder. The more they struggle, the less motivated they get, and the less gets done.

This is fair, and a good example of context dependent.

For our team normally when in person we focus on things like this, and usually there is a ramp up period when someone is starting when the learning curve is huge where in person helps more. But because of the housing costs and how far people live from the actual office we started doing some in person stuff like that at people's places if it was more convenient (if everyone was okay with it obviously). But that way people only had a short drive and didn't have to pay for parking.

Once people got up to speed on frequent tasks, the amount of in person mentoring for stuff like that tapered off, and usually not much that can't wait a few days until the next in person day at the office (so 2-3 business days max generally).

If the office wasn't far and you didn't need to pay for parking it's a lot easier to sell. In the NCR in particular though, you can easily drive 90 minutes between DND locations during the day with traffic, and 1-2 hour commutes each way are a real thing as well with housing going north of 700k-1M, and apartments at 2-3k a month in town. With the broken LRT public transit is questionable so overall lots of disincentives to going back to the office full time if hybrid is working.

The other intangible thing I find useful is the days where I want to take off my uniform and quit 'Slapshot' style by flipping a double bird as I run out to the parking garage in my skivvies is that I can take a break a lot easier, and do things like listen to music at volume to relieve the urge to throat punch someone. Sometimes that might just be a 5 minute breather browsing here or something, but that probably kept me from getting charged and committed on a psych hold last year when I was covering 7 jobs.

 

[Eaglelord17]

This is fair, and a good example of context dependent.

For our team normally when in person we focus on things like this, and usually there is a ramp up period when someone is starting when the learning curve is huge where in person helps more. But because of the housing costs and how far people live from the actual office we started doing some in person stuff like that at people's places if it was more convenient (if everyone was okay with it obviously). But that way people only had a short drive and didn't have to pay for parking.

Once people got up to speed on frequent tasks, the amount of in person mentoring for stuff like that tapered off, and usually not much that can't wait a few days until the next in person day at the office (so 2-3 business days max generally).

If the office wasn't far and you didn't need to pay for parking it's a lot easier to sell. In the NCR in particular though, you can easily drive 90 minutes between DND locations during the day with traffic, and 1-2 hour commutes each way are a real thing as well with housing going north of 700k-1M, and apartments at 2-3k a month in town. With the broken LRT public transit is questionable so overall lots of disincentives to going back to the office full time if hybrid is working.

The other intangible thing I find useful is the days where I want to take off my uniform and quit 'Slapshot' style by flipping a double bird as I run out to the parking garage in my skivvies is that I can take a break a lot easier, and do things like listen to music at volume to relieve the urge to throat punch someone. Sometimes that might just be a 5 minute breather browsing here or something, but that probably kept me from getting charged and committed on a psych hold last year when I was covering 7 jobs.

Maybe a possible solution is moving some of those jobs out of the Ottawa area to lower density communities with less expensive housing if there is no direct requirement to be in Ottawa. From what I am seeing from the outside a lot of the reason these jobs are in places like Toronto or Ottawa is simply because thats where they decided to put the job as opposed to a geographical requirement (such as say a mine being located where it is or a saw mill).

Not saying move all the jobs, just it also has benefits for the government as they can get office space and land for cheaper as well.

 

[Remius]

Maybe a possible solution is moving some of those jobs out of the Ottawa area to lower density communities with less expensive housing if there is no direct requirement to be in Ottawa. From what I am seeing from the outside a lot of the reason these jobs are in places like Toronto or Ottawa is simply because thats where they decided to put the job as opposed to a geographical requirement (such as say a mine being located where it is or a saw mill).

Not saying move all the jobs, just it also has benefits for the government as they can get office space and land for cheaper as well.

Would be great. But it won’t happen now.

That chance has left the building with a return to buildings as it were.

 

[Navy_Pete]

@Eaglelord17 I think that is a lot easier when you have a new org, but harder when you have an existing one, just because your employees are already scattered around the area. But defintiely trending to people going further out, and 100 km distance as the crow flies can be a 2+ hour drive on a good day.

The alternative is things like PMQs, or like the old company housing a lot of places used to do.

If I came to Ottawa now, I'd probably be looking somewhere closer to Carling, but when I moved here that wasn't even a thing so out on the East end. Lot of people even further east out in Rockland area so the spread is enormous.

At least if we were in Toronto GO train would be a real option. In theory I'm only about a 25 km distance from work, but somedays it would be faster to be coming in from a different direction from much farther away.

 

[Edward Campbell]

One of my friends, who is now a senior executive in government, very likely a potential DM, is one of those leading the charge for full office work AND for moving some elements out of Ottawa.

She uses the division in. which we worked together - radio spectrum engineering - as an example of a branch that needs to be moved. In that case the Gov't has difficulty in getting the people it wants because they are, mostly, in and around, Toronto and they want to stay there, or, maybe more to the point, they don't want to move to Ottawa. Toronto has a big tech community and movement between jobs is fairly easy - Ottawa had that, back in the 1990s and early 2000s, but no longer.

Jobs in Ottawa also, often, require bilingualism designations that are not job related and that is a major disincentive for many younger high-tech workers who are, already multilingual ... just not in French.

Suffice to say that she has a lot of support for full-time, back in the office work but her views on moving jobs out of Ottawa are anathema to the most senior ranks of the public service.

 

[Navy_Pete]

@Edward Campbell I'm convinced for most people it's almost entirely driven by the desire to have L1s on hand nearby to brief BGHs, but very little reason the majority of people need to be physically located in Ottawa to support that.

We had people working remotely on both coasts, which was great, and we were looking on setting up 'cells' to have some people co-located with the fleets. When we floated that we went from zero applicants to about two dozen just by word of mouth by people that were fully qualified but just didn't want to move to Ottawa. Then the TB directive on the travel dropped and scuppered that plan.

I think the requirement for full time office work will vary wildly by job though, and if someone spends 80% of their time working independently on something you can do remotely really no reason they need to physically be in the office if they would prefer some kind of hybrid work. And with the gaping holes we have in org charts I could live with a bit of in-efficiency from a learning curve instead of the massive bottle necks we have with one person trying to do multiple jobs.

 

[Remius]

One of my friends, who is now a senior executive in government, very likely a potential DM, is one of those leading the charge for full office work AND for moving some elements out of Ottawa.

I would expect that most senior execs who have their own office and personal meeting space have no issue, in general, with full return to office.

She uses the division in. which we worked together - radio spectrum engineering - as an example of a branch that needs to be moved. In that case the Gov't has difficulty in getting the people it wants because they are, mostly, in and around, Toronto and they want to stay there, or, maybe more to the point, they don't want to move to Ottawa. Toronto has a big tech community and movement between jobs is fairly easy - Ottawa had that, back in the 1990s and early 2000s, but no longer.

For some jobs and areas that makes a lot of sense. The problem that it can lead to is while they can recruit from the local area it can get difficult to recruit from within the PS either laterally or via deployment unless people want to relocate. WFH can help solve some of that (job depending of course) The other issue is moving up, getting experience at other departments etc etc. It isn’t impossible but it gets more difficult. I see it as a case by case basis when it comes to telework and hybrid. I see it as an opportunity lost by not creating those opportunities.

Jobs in Ottawa also, often, require bilingualism designations that are not job related and that is a major disincentive for many younger high-tech workers who are, already multilingual ... just not in French.

It does but i have found that for high tech positions it’s generally only when they reach management or supervisory levels that it becomes required.

Suffice to say that she has a lot of support for full-time, back in the office work but her views on moving jobs out of Ottawa are anathema to the most senior ranks of the public service.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Maybe a possible solution is moving some of those jobs out of the Ottawa area to lower density communities with less expensive housing if there is no direct requirement to be in Ottawa. From what I am seeing from the outside a lot of the reason these jobs are in places like Toronto or Ottawa is simply because thats where they decided to put the job as opposed to a geographical requirement (such as say a mine being located where it is or a saw mill).

Not saying move all the jobs, just it also has benefits for the government as they can get office space and land for cheaper as well.

Miramichi here we come!

 

[daftandbarmy]

The (expensive) battle continues...

Return-to-Office Is a $1.3 Trillion Problem Few Have Figured Out​

(Bloomberg) -- In the emerging post-pandemic era, most aspects of life have returned to normal. Moviegoers are flocking to cinemas, vacationers jammed airports for summer travel and kids are returning to classrooms.
Most Read from Bloomberg

The one thing that has remained stubbornly fraught: the world of work.

Three and a half years after millions of office-goers were sent home en masse, companies, employees and governments are still figuring out how to adapt to lasting changes to corporate life. But stark differences have emerged across continents and cultures, with Asian and European workers largely returning to offices at a faster pace their counterparts in the Americas.

Asian nations did a better job keeping Covid-19 under wraps in the pandemic’s first year, so people there didn’t get as accustomed to working from home, making it easier to transition back to office life, researchers found. Europe’s habits vary widely — the UK has one of the highest rates of remote work, and France one of the lowest — but several of its countries also are leading the way with laws enshrining flexible schedules.

Then there are places such as the US, where policymakers have stayed largely silent, leaving bosses and employees to navigate the changes on their own. As the post-Labor Day period marks a time of resuming normal schedules after summer vacations, companies including Amazon.com Inc. and even Zoom Video Communications Inc. are cracking down on getting workers back to offices for at least part of the week.

But even then, workers are facing vastly different policies depending on their companies, managers or location. Goldman Sachs Group Inc. wants staff in five days a week. At Walt Disney Co., it’s four days; for Amazon, Google and many others, it’s three. Hybrid schedules are now the norm for office goers in the world’s largest economy.

The chaotic nature of RTO was understandable two years ago, when Covid was still circulating at crisis levels and “the Great Resignation” and “lying flat” were the catchphrases of the day for workers pushing back on norms. Now, cooling economies mean hiring has slowed in many sectors from the frenetic pace of two years ago, giving bosses more leverage to call the shots, while layoffs and cost-cutting measures have many workers on edge. Yet the debate is far from settled, leaving questions about the role of offices, the integration of work and life, and the measurement of productivity and pay.

How it plays out carries significant economic consequences: McKinsey Global Institute estimates that pandemic shifts could erase as much as $1.3 trillion of real estate value in big cities around the world by 2030.

“Everyone is asking, ‘Is this going to come back?’” said Phil Kirschner, who advises executives on real estate and workplace strategies at McKinsey & Co. in the US.

“What we’ve done is Band-Aided some tools together to prevent the ship from sinking,” he said. “But we haven’t done the difficult work to say, ‘The way we were working before was not universally great for everybody. And this is the new reality.’”

BNN Bloomberg – Canada Business News, TSX Today and Interest Rates

Get the latest Canadian business news, TSX updates, interest rates and Bank of Canada coverage. Explore stock market investing and get expert financial insights on investment portfolio strategies.

www.bnnbloomberg.ca

 

[dapaterson]

Remote work has the potential for exciting, fundamental changes to work and to parts of the economy.

Of course, those with the most to lose are property owners, so they are fighting the hardest.

 

[McG]

How much do you thing one’s means of commuting influences the desire to return to the office?

Commuting time, 2011 to 2022

In the publication Quality of Employment in Canada, the Commuting time indicator refers to the average length of time, in minutes, usually required by a person to travel to their place of work in their main job (one way). The data are for all employed persons aged 15 and over who have a usual...

www150.statcan.gc.ca

 

[Remius]

Figured this would be a good place to post this.

Treasury Board 'committed to hybrid work' after reports of mandated change coming in fall

The Treasury Board of Canada will only say it is “committed to hybrid work,” as reports suggest federal workers may be required to spend more time in the office.

ottawa.ctvnews.ca

 

[Kirkhill]

Public service union to file labour board complaint over hybrid work plan

OTTAWA - The Public Service Alliance of Canada says it is filing a labour board complaint against the federal government.

www.thestar.com

I’ve heard speculation that this return to the office policy was a pressure tactic to force other concessions from the union during the ongoing pay negotiations. I’ve heard other speculation that union members brought a government-wide standard themselves as a result of employees under some organizations complaining that they were being asked to do more/different as compared to peers in other organizations.

Regardless of what drove the policy, the government is going to run into an office crunch if it demands more than two days from everyone. It has been realized how much money can be saved if the cost of a workspace footprint is shouldered by the workers themselves. A lot of office building leases have been cancelled or set to expire. Either the leases need to be re-established, employees told to stay home, or we get ready for the least productive days of the week to be those days people are in the office & milling about without space to do their jobs.

Will be interesting to watch and see where this goes.

Third option. Musical chairs. No chair. No job.

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... a lot of the reason these jobs are in places like Toronto or Ottawa is simply because thats where they decided to put the job big expensive office building normally full of bosses as opposed to a geographical requirement ...

I suspect this is also a factor re: getting folks back into the office, efficiencies (or not) notwithstanding.

Figured this would be a good place to post this.

Treasury Board 'committed to hybrid work' after reports of mandated change coming in fall

The Treasury Board of Canada will only say it is “committed to hybrid work,” as reports suggest federal workers may be required to spend more time in the office.

ottawa.ctvnews.ca

Can still have people with buttocks in rented-office-space seats 3 days out of 5 and call it hybrid.

Third option. Musical chairs. No chair. No job.

You laugh, but in some offices out people, most people don't have assigned seating (except for those going back 5 days/week), so if the transient seats happen to be full, no room at the inn.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Third option. Musical chairs. No chair. No job.

You mean like the buildings being renovated to cut the footprint down to 40% of what it was when everyone had an assigned desk?

That's on the go, and is a bit of a shit show as per normal, but they literally won't have spots for everyone to come in everyday, military or civilian.

 

[dapaterson]

You mean like the buildings being renovated to cut the footprint down to 40% of what it was when everyone had an assigned desk?

That's on the go, and is a bit of a shit show as per normal, but they literally won't have spots for everyone to come in everyday, military or civilian.

And if the consolidation includes secure spaces, where it's impossible to WFH, then the model collapses further and people will be wandering outside the buildings at Carling Campus, searching for a WiFi signal and fighting off the geese.

 

[Navy_Pete]

And if the consolidation includes secure spaces, where it's impossible to WFH, then the model collapses further and people will be wandering outside the buildings at Carling Campus, searching for a WiFi signal and fighting off the geese.

Not so much secure spaces, but they overlooked secure storage as well as actual storage for things that can't be digitized (like expensive standards or reference books). At the moment we just consilidated into an area, so not a big deal to keep the lockup for some legacy confidential documents etc.

For us boffins, the big ass drawings is also a big deal; for some reason trying to trace lines on a 21" screen isn't the same as a 4'x6' print (especially when it spans multiple sheets). We've kept a lot of them, but there is a pretty good reason we have hardcopies of digital drawings.

 

[McG]

We've kept a lot of them, but there is a pretty good reason we have hardcopies of digital drawings.

So many “we only had a physical copy and lost it in the LStL fire” stories enter the room.

 

[KevinB]

Not so much secure spaces, but they overlooked secure storage as well as actual storage for things that can't be digitized (like expensive standards or reference books). At the moment we just consilidated into an area, so not a big deal to keep the lockup for some legacy confidential documents etc.

For us boffins, the big ass drawings is also a big deal; for some reason trying to trace lines on a 21" screen isn't the same as a 4'x6' print (especially when it spans multiple sheets). We've kept a lot of them, but there is a pretty good reason we have hardcopies of digital drawings.

Get a giant screen wall.

You can do WFH on secure means, you just need to have faith that your people doing it are following the rules.
It’s not that hard to make a SCIF in a home - if there is enough space. Or have out buildings for that purpose in areas near your work force.

 

[PuckChaser]

Get a giant screen wall.

You can do WFH on secure means, you just need to have faith that your people doing it are following the rules.
It’s not that hard to make a SCIF in a home - if there is enough space. Or have out buildings for that purpose in areas near your work force.

You clearly haven't met DIM SECUR, DGDS and the NDSODs...