Fasting in the CF

[Armymedic]

and since when is "dieting" a healthy and correct way to lose weight? Is it not usually associated with a yo-yo?

Sure, when you only do "dieting" to fit into the swim suit of wedding dress, and then go on to eat chocolate cake or a bag of chips the weekend after you hit your goal.

The new 21st century term is "healthy eating".

And that is a form of fasting.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I dont understand people with that kind of mindset. It has always been an implied understanding that if you join up, you willingly reduce your level of religious observance because ther isnt room for it regardless of religion.  As an example, we cant adapt to Quakers who wont ride in vehicles.  You can argue that its your right of religious observance to fast, but people with such strict observances, regardless of religion should think twice before joining.  If they are going to fast, then they will also want to not work on Fridays, the same way others do not want to work on Saturdays and Sundays, which can cause conflict and confrontations for the rest who arent as observant.  They may need kosher or (I forget the term for Muslims, 'falil'?) or otherwise approved foods which will not be available to them all the time.  They are pretty much making themselves into an administrative burden, for inexplicable reasons. 

Interesting that there is little understanding of folks with a religious mindset yet there are lots of them in the CF and they weren't asked to leave their religious beliefs or practices at the door when they joined. That's why we have Base Chapels and Chaplains who deploy and go to sea or in the field with the troops...so that religious observances may be observed by those who wish to do so. For the most part our system is set up for the Judeo-Christian heritage...that's why you enjoy Saturday and Sunday off and not Friday and Saturday or any other day. Fish and chips are served in the messes every Friday because  Christians, mostly RCs used to fast from eating meat on Fridays. In recent years as stated by others we are working to accommodate other faith groups. We now have Faith Centres with spaces for other religions or philosophies to gather and pray or practice. We are hiring other religious leaders (we have an Imam in Edmonton now and a Rabbi in Ottawa). People can apply through the chain for Religious Accommodation for their holy days or practices....COs look at the request and usually use the Chaplains to research and speak with the member and his or her Faith leader to judge the reasonableness of the request and then a recommendation is made to the CO who will either say yes or no. As stated by others if the request interferes with Ops or duty a compromise is reached in order to try and accommodate the member. This is covered in QROs and CFAOs.
We now have at least 8 MREs in the system for Muslims (they are not allowed to eat pork either) and there are kosher meals coming too. There are accommodations for turbans for Sikhs and various things like long hair in braids for Aboriginals and wearing of medicine pouches.
Quakers by the way are pacifists and would never consider joining the CF or any other armed force if they are devote Quakers...as are most of the Mennonite groups.
there are many forces that have a lot of Muslims and Jews in them (Saudi Arabia and Israel for example) and they do just fine keeping their observances. It's always understood that operations come first and prayer and fasting later.
When I was at Gagetown we had two Muslims on SQ. One was a former Kuwaiti AF officer and the other was a young guy from a really strict family. They were in the field during Ramadan and they asked if they had to take water during the 13K marches. We consulted our Imam in Edmonton and he said they could put off their observances until the exercise was over...which they did and all was well. We also had to make accommodation for separate showers in the barracks (public nudity is a no no for them) and accommodation for them to keep their prayer carpets , Koran and other religious articles in their kit....all this was done and they did fine.
We are definitely seeking to become more diverse and more accommodating in the CF....this is official policy....we must do so in order to keep up with our demographic. Many of the Reserve units in the big centres now have far more "other faiths" in them than they have Christians or those of Christian origin. RMC has a lot of other religions included in their ranks as well.
The CF is changing and the answer to the original question is we will be changing to accommodate folks who legitimately need to be accommodated.

By the way the Religions in Canada , thick as a phonebook ,was compiled by a government researcher and not the Chaplain Branch. It is riddled with errors and should not be used to base a decision for Religious accommodation. The SMEs are the Chaplains and they should be engaged when a request comes forward. If you don't you can be open to redress and having egg on your face. when you get a legal question you use the JAG....use the Chaplain when it comes to religious accommodation requests.

 

[Strike]

Right, you just said everything I wanted to.

+1

 

[Greymatters]

Interesting that there is little understanding of folks with a religious mindset yet there are lots of them in the CF and they weren't asked to leave their religious beliefs or practices at the door when they joined. That's why we have Base Chapels and Chaplains who deploy and go to sea or in the field with the troops...so that religious observances may be observed by those who wish to do so. For the most part our system is set up for the Judeo-Christian heritage...that's why you enjoy Saturday and Sunday off and not Friday and Saturday or any other day. Fish and chips are served in the messes every Friday because  Christians, mostly RCs used to fast from eating meat on Fridays. In recent years as stated by others we are working to accommodate other faith groups. We now have Faith Centres with spaces for other religions or philosophies to gather and pray or practice. We are hiring other religious leaders (we have an Imam in Edmonton now and a Rabbi in Ottawa). People can apply through the chain for Religious Accommodation for their holy days or practices....COs look at the request and usually use the Chaplains to research and speak with the member and his or her Faith leader to judge the reasonableness of the request and then a recommendation is made to the CO who will either say yes or no. As stated by others if the request interferes with Ops or duty a compromise is reached in order to try and accommodate the member. This is covered in QROs and CFAOs.
We now have at least 8 MREs in the system for Muslims (they are not allowed to eat pork either) and there are kosher meals coming too. There are accommodations for turbans for Sikhs and various things like long hair in braids for Aboriginals and wearing of medicine pouches.
Quakers by the way are pacifists and would never consider joining the CF or any other armed force if they are devote Quakers...as are most of the Mennonite groups.
there are many forces that have a lot of Muslims and Jews in them (Saudi Arabia and Israel for example) and they do just fine keeping their observances. It's always understood that operations come first and prayer and fasting later.
When I was at Gagetown we had two Muslims on SQ. One was a former Kuwaiti AF officer and the other was a young guy from a really strict family. They were in the field during Ramadan and they asked if they had to take water during the 13K marches. We consulted our Imam in Edmonton and he said they could put off their observances until the exercise was over...which they did and all was well. We also had to make accommodation for separate showers in the barracks (public nudity is a no no for them) and accommodation for them to keep their prayer carpets , Koran and other religious articles in their kit....all this was done and they did fine.
We are definitely seeking to become more diverse and more accommodating in the CF....this is official policy....we must do so in order to keep up with our demographic. Many of the Reserve units in the big centres now have far more "other faiths" in them than they have Christians or those of Christian origin. RMC has a lot of other religions included in their ranks as well.
The CF is changing and the answer to the original question is we will be changing to accommodate folks who legitimately need to be accommodated.
By the way the Religions in Canada , thick as a phonebook ,was compiled by a government researcher and not the Chaplain Branch. It is riddled with errors and should not be used to base a decision for Religious accommodation. The SMEs are the Chaplains and they should be engaged when a request comes forward. If you don't you can be open to redress and having egg on your face. when you get a legal question you use the JAG....use the Chaplain when it comes to religious accommodation requests.

All valid reasons, well presented.  I guess I just have to get used to the change...

 

[Fusaki]

No, your logic is flawed.  The intent of fasting is for religious purposes not to render themselves unfit for service.  It might make them unfit, but the intent wasn't there.

So what is the intent of religious fasting?

 

[Strike]

So what is the intent of religious fasting?

Try Google and find out.  There are enough Muslims in the world it's easy enough to find.  And, given that the fasting tradition is based in the time of Abraham, the relationship to their fasting and that of other religions is similar.

 

[Remius]

So what is the intent of religious fasting?

I provided a link a few posts above about fasting during Ramadan, it also mentions the exceptions for women and children etc.

From what I understood it has to do with being pure in the eyes of God. And it isn't just food and drink, it includes sex, pornography and so on.  There are many internet resources.  I'm no expert, but I know the intent isn't to render themselves unfit for service in the Canadian Forces.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

So what is the intent of religious fasting?

Fasting is not just a Muslim tradition...it has roots in all major religions. Christians have a fasting tradition too although it's not widely practiced in the West any more. It is a way of concentrating on prayer and getting in tune with the spiritual side instead of worrying about material and physical needs. It is a denial of self...something a lot of Westerners could use a few lessons in.

As it's been pointed out there is a lot of informaton available on this on the Net and of course Chapters would have stuff about it if one is serous about learning about it.

 

[Roy Harding]

I have served with Muslim servicemen (Officers and NCMs) on operations.  Most folks around them were not even aware of their religion - as most folks were not aware of my own, it's not a subject that comes up on a daily basis for most of us.  I was surprised to learn of their religion - which knowledge was only gleaned as our professional relationship became more personal, as those relationships do when your jobs put you in close and constant contact with another individual.

As for fasting - my friends both stated that they would not fast, as that would impair their operational effectiveness - they were pretty sure that Allah would understand.  Somewhat along the lines that a Catholic is pretty sure God understands when they miss Sunday Mass because they were busy on operations.

In 99.9% of cases, religion is not an issue.  In the .1% of cases,  I'm convinced that if they weren't playing the religion card, they'd find something ELSE to whine, bitch, moan and complain about.  Some folks just have a need to be perceived as a victim - if religion is the easiest way to accomplish this goal, that's what they'll use.


Roy

 

[geo]

Islam forbids any form of drink or food during the holy month. Of course there are exceptions (pregnant, on medicine, sick, the young and old)

During Ramadan, the faithful do not eat during the day.... but once night has fallen, Ohhhh - that's another story altogether.  Lots of eating!

Furthermore, fasting is a question of judgement.  If it is going to put the soldier and his comrades in peril, he won't do it... and the relkigion does provide for the situation.

 

[retiredgrunt45]

Fasting is not just a Muslim tradition...it has roots in all major religions. Christians have a fasting tradition too although it's not widely practiced in the West any more. It is a way of concentrating on prayer and getting in tune with the spiritual side instead of worrying about material and physical needs. It is a denial of self...something a lot of Westerners could use a few lessons in.

Very true. We in the western hemisphere give the phrase "take for granted" a whole new meaning.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Nothing to do with the topic but I was at work today and had army.ca up (yeah yeah) and one of the officers walked by, took a look and said "Oh my god...they have a topic alled Fisting in the CF at Army.ca.

I busted a gut.....

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Nothing to do with the topic but I was at work today and had army.ca up (yeah yeah) and one of the officers walked by, took a look and said "Oh my god...they have a topic alled Fisting in the CF at Army.ca.

I busted a gut.....

...and then you made it even funnier by telling him that the Padre was having quite a bit to say on the topic right??  ;D

 

[R.O.S]

Nothing to do with the topic but I was at work today and had army.ca up (yeah yeah) and one of the officers walked by, took a look and said "Oh my god...they have a topic alled Fisting in the CF at Army.ca.

I busted a gut.....

Makes this statement all the more true "Acocdrnig to an elgnsih unviesitry sutdy the oredr of letetrs in a wrod dosen't mttaer, the olny thnig thta's iopmrantt is that the frsit and lsat ltteer of eevry word is in the crorect ptoision. The rset can be jmbueld and one is stlil able to raed the txet wiohtut dclftfuiiy."

lol, fisting ;D

 

[Munxcub]

Without difficulty yes... without eye strain and headaches no...  ;D

 

[Armymedic]

Nothing to do with the topic but I was at work today and had army.ca up (yeah yeah) and one of the officers walked by, took a look and said "Oh my god...they have a topic alled Fisting in the CF at Army.ca.

Clarify, that was a Naval officer? Is he afraid the army is infriging on traditional naval terrain?  >

 

[geo]

Yetch...

Puts a whole new meaning to the term "tight fisted"

 

[Fishbone Jones]

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/countries/bl_BangladeshIslamTenets.htm

The ninth month of the Muslim calendar is Ramadan, a period of obligatory fasting in commemoration of Muhammad's receipt of God's revelation. During the month all but the sick, the weak, pregnant or lactating women, soldiers on duty, travelers on necessary journeys, and young children are enjoined, as appropriate to their state in life, from eating, drinking, smoking, and sexual intercourse during daylight hours. The wealthy usually do little or no work during this period, and some businesses close for all or part of the day. Since the months of the lunar calendar revolve through the solar year, Ramadan falls at various seasons in different years. Summertime fasting imposes considerable hardship on those who must do physical work. Id al Fitr, a feast celebrated throughout the Islamic world, marks the end of the month of fasting. Gifts, the wearing of new garments, exchanges of sweetmeats, almsgiving, and visits to friends and relatives are some of the customs of this great religious festival.

I also recall a conversation with an Indian officer regarding turbans/helmets and beards/ respirators. The answer was basically the safety of the soldier is paramount. God will understand and would prefer the soldier be protected, than sacrifice himself or others needlessly. If that means helmets and gas mask instead of turban and beard, so be it. Same goes for fasting and prayer. Many times our interpreter preferred us to vacate an area and wait, rather than pray at the alotted time. When questioned why, he said Allah had no wish to harm and he would understand if he couldn't pray.

 

[R.O.S]

Thank you recceguy for answering my original concern. 

 

[MG34]

So 3 pages of mumbo jumbo and social experiment goodness we arrive at the same answer voiced on page 1,that it is all conditional on the type of duty and situation the soldier faces. This applies to all religious cults and races in the CF, do what you want until the needs of the service outweigh whatever the witch doctor told you to do, and that is the way it should be, all this touchy feely multicultural BS does nothing but destroy cohesion in the CF as suddenly some are MORE equal than others based on race and religion.