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F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sharpey
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Remember the idea of the F-15 "Silent Eagle" for the RCAF is a thought experiment, and might only move into the real world if, for some reason the CF-35 does not survive review (especially for political reasons).

Like the "Super Hornet" it is a maxed out 1970's vintage design (no supercruise, for example), but unlike all the other designs being mooted as a CF-35 alternative, it is a large, long range machine which, in my opinion, is much more important for the RCAF, considering that even ferry flights across Canada or patrolling the arctic is like strategic movement for most other airforces, and many of the places we might need to operate in are pretty far away. Cost wise it is probably comparable to the CF-35 and all the other suggested alternatives.

Having two seats and the ability to carry a large electronics suite presents one potential upgrade; the plane might become a sort of airborne command post for a flock of UAV or UCAV's in the future. The F-15 has the speed and manoeuvrability to protect itself or break off if it is shepherding UCAVs into hostile airspace.
 
Thucydides said:
Having two seats and the ability to carry a large electronics suite presents one potential upgrade; the plane might become a sort of airborne command post for a flock of UAV or UCAV's in the future. The F-15 has the speed and manoeuvrability to protect itself or break off if it is shepherding UCAVs into hostile airspace.

I'm just going to pipe up here and say that this concept reminds me of the "Forever War" space battles.

Having a flight of 4-6 drones with one F-15/F-XX/Whatever with a GiB with his hand on the switch seems like a good future plan.
 
And the "blame game" gets into second gear with this article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Hill Times, in which former ADM(Mat) Alan Williams slags almost everyone except himself:

http://www.hilltimes.com/news/news/2012/12/17/f-35-process-%E2%80%98corrupted%E2%80%99-from-the-beginning-says-williams/33222?page_requested=1
F-35 process ‘corrupted’ from the beginning, says Williams

By BEA VONGDOUANGCHANH

Published: Monday, 12/17/2012

Federal bureaucrats are the ones who “hijacked” the F-35 procurement process, but Cabinet ministers went along without questioning it when they should have in order to avoid the controversy the government is facing today on acquiring 65 stealth fighter jets at a newly-projected cost of $45.8-billion over 42 years, say some critics.

“We know that the fiasco certainly started by the bureaucrats hijacking the process,” said Alan Williams, former assistant deputy minister for procurement in National Defence and a leading critic of the government’s F-35 procurement process.

Since 2010 when the government signalled it would in fact buy the F-35s in a sole-sourced procurement process for $9-billion and $7-billion in operation and maintenance costs, it has been mired in controversy over several  issues—the two major ones being a disputed cost (the Parliamentary Budget Office estimated the price tag to be $29-billion over a life-cycle of 30 years for acquisition, operation and maintenance which Auditor General Michael Ferguson later verified in his own report at $25-billion over 20 years) and the secrecy behind the sole-sourced procurement, which eventually led to the government being found in contempt of Parliament and triggered the May 2011 election.

All along the way, the majority-governing Conservatives have maintained that their numbers are correct, that the PBO was wrong, that the Canadian Air Force needs the F-35s and would not go to an open competition for new fighter jets to replace Canada’s ageing CF-18s, that the opposition was not patriotic enough or standing behind men and women in uniform, that they followed Treasury Board guidelines, and that they won a majority government which clearly meant Canadians were behind them on the purchase.

When Mr. Ferguson said in his critical April 2012 report that the government did not apply due diligence in this case, the government slightly retreated and set up the National Fighter Procurement Secretariat, moving the procurement process from DND to Public Works, and introducing its “seven-point plan” to address the F-35 acquisition.

It back-pedalled again last Wednesday when it released an audit by KPMG which analyzed the stealth fighter jets’ full life-cycle costs at $45.8-billion over 42 years, including $565-million for development, $9-billion for acquisition, $15.2-billion for maintenance, $20-billion for operations and $65-million for disposal.

The estimate was for 30 years of operation and 12 years of research and development and disposal.

Mr. Williams said it didn’t have to come to this, however.

“Why the ministers blindly went along with it, I don’t know. Why they didn’t question and challenge, why [then National Defence Minister Gordon] O’Connor didn’t say to them, ‘You’re recommending this to me? Where’s the statement of requirements? Why should I accept this? My staff tell me that this is just in the early stages of development? How the hell do you know what’s it going to be able to do? You can’t even tell me how much it’s going to cost? What kind of stupid support am I getting from you guys?’ That could’ve been his reaction, but it wasn’t obviously. They bought into it. I’m not sure why they bought into it. I do know that the bureaucrats were inexcusable in making that recommendation, but I can’t explain why for the last two years when all the information was coming out saying that everything that they were saying made no sense, why they simply didn’t get off the train earlier,” Mr. Williams told The Hill Times.

Last week, the government said it would “reset” the procurement process that would allow the fighter secretariat to complete its “seven-point plan” and return to an “options analysis” of available fighter jets to meet Canada’s needs, but stopped short of saying that it would move to an open and transparent competitive bidding process with a change in DND’s statement of requirements.

“We are pressing reset on this acquisition in order to ensure a balance between military needs and taxpayer interests. To do so, we need to have all viable options on the table for the replacement of the CF-18,” Defence Minister Peter MacKay (Central Nova, N.S.) said at a press conference last Wednesday on Parliament Hill. “No decision on a replacement for Canada’s ageing fighter aircraft will occur until the seven-point plan is complete.”

Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose (Edmonton-Spruce Grove, Alta.) announced the independent panel that will be overseeing the options analysis.

“The next step is a full review of options. We have hit the reset button and are taking the time to do a complete assessment of all available aircraft,” Ms. Ambrose said at the same press conference. “Consistent with the aims to improve due diligence, oversight and transparency, this work will be informed by a panel of independent reviewers external to government. Their involvement is meant to ensure that the work performed is both rigorous and impartial.”

Members of the panel are former CF fighter pilot Keith Coulter who also served as chief of the Communications Security Establishment; University of Ottawa professor Philippe Lagassé; lobbying firm Sussex Circle founder Jim Mitchell; and former comptroller general of Canada Rod Monette.

But critics said last week that if the government is truly to “reset” the process, it would quickly move to rewrite the statement of requirements, make that public so all Canadians know why the Air Force needs new fighter jets and what capacities are needed to meet Canada’s future needs, and then put it out to a public tender in a request for proposal.

Mr. Williams said the options analysis is a “waste of time” because it won’t tell the government anything it doesn’t already know.

“The whole procurement process was perverted from the beginning,” Mr. Williams said. “When you buy something, you start with a statement of requirements that’s open, fair, and transparent. And then, you search the marketplace to find the best product that meets those requirements. That’s what you do. It’s not that complicated.” Mr. Williams said bureaucrats recommended the F-35 based on “a very superficial options analysis, an incomplete options analysis that the Air Force had conducted themselves.” He said that the ADM material should have stepped in and said, “That’s not how we do business here.’” Instead, Mr. Williams said the ADM said, “Okay, I’ll take your very superficial analysis and I’ll tell the minister this is it.”

Mr. Williams said, “Right from the very beginning, the process was corrupted. And, right from the beginning, every argument that the government put out to support their decision was flawed and misleading. ... That’s where it all went wrong. Instead of the government simply saying, ‘Time out, you know, maybe we have been underestimating the cost and things aren’t quite right and the process is flawed and we should do this the right way,’ they’ve continued day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year, to continue down this insane road of deceit.”

NDP MP Matthew Kellway (Beaches-East York, Ont.), his party’s military procurement critic, said last week that the government is continuing to do an options analysis behind closed-doors, so nothing is different about this “reset” the Conservatives talk about.

“What they call a reset button is actually a repeat button because all they’ve done is they got called out on the carpet by the official opposition, by the parliamentary budget officer, by the auditor general, and they’ve had to come out and say okay, here’s a different costing for the plane. But as soon as they do that, they again retreat behind closed doors to do an options analysis, and so, there’s no reset here,” Mr. Kellway told The Hill Times.

At a press conference last Wednesday, Public Works deputy minister Michelle d’Auray said the analysis will be based on discussions with all aircraft manufacturers and that all information that can be publicly released will be.

“Any effects on the statement of operational requirement will be assessed once the work on the options analysis is complete. Industry Canada then provide an assessment of the potential industrial benefits associated with each option,” Ms. d’Auray said.

Mr. Kellway said, however, that the government should move immediately to a competitive procurement process.

“You set out what exactly are your requirements? You do it in a certain way so that it’s not wired to any particular outcome, and then on the basis of that set of requirements you establish an open, transparent competition to fill those requirements. That is the only way to reset this process.”

A lobbyist familiar with the procurement process told The Hill Times that one problem in moving to a competitive process is the battle between bureaucrats and politicians. “Don’t forget bureaucrats do not give up their mistakes easily. That is a major principle in the discipline of power. I see the bureaucrats hanging on to the F-35 in desperation with the politicians looking for a strategic retreat from the F-35,” the lobbyist said. “Don’t forget Public Works was in on the original decision to sole source. By law, all major procurements have to go through Public Works regardless of who the client department is. Moving it from DND to Public Works is just cosmetics and optics. The first battle will be the writing of statement of requirements. Departments tend to write these in favour of the product they want. Sometimes they even take language out of the product’s maintenance manual. I expect this is what DND will try to do. Whether Ambrose lets Public Works play along will be an interesting question.”

But Liberal MP John McKay (Scarborough-Guildwood, Ont.) said the final decision rests with politicians, and responsibility starts with the prime minister and minister.

“The minister’s expected to be an adult, the minister’s expected to provide supervision in the public interest. The minister’s supposed to have civilian oversight, that is the phrase, and it has not been exercised,” Mr. McKay said. “Obviously the minister has not applied his mind to connecting the wish list of DND with the capacity of a budget. All militaries fly, sail and march on their budget. This government just simply is unable or unwilling to reconcile the two.”

The Canadian federal government has so far spent $250-million on the Joint Strike Fighter Program, a consortium of eight countries in addition to the United States, as a tier three partner in the development of the F-35. It has committed an extra $750-million to the program. So far, Canadian companies have identified $435-million worth of industrial benefits to the aerospace sector. There are no penalties for withdrawing from the program.

Despite the difference in cost estimates, critics said last week the key issue here is to have a proper tendering process so that Canada gets the aircraft it needs at a good price.

“What we’re talking about here is the necessity to making the statement of requirements one in which the jets in the marketplace have a legitimate chance to compete in,” Mr. Williams said.

Mr. McKay agreed. “It speaks to all of what they [the Conservative government] claim to be their core competencies.”

Mr. Kellway said the F-35 could still win out if an open competition were held but it needs go through the process rather than being sole-sourced.

“I’m not asking them to take the F-35 off the table. The F-35 should be able to play in an open competition as well as any other airplane manufacturers. Give us what you got, how much it costs and we’ll have a look,” he said, noting that the government does not need to withdraw from the program’s memorandum of understanding in order to hold an open competition as the Netherlands is doing. “There’s no reason that Canada can’t do the same thing.”

Mr. Williams said that he has “no idea” which fighter jet is the best for Canada.  “Nobody can say for certain until you go through a formal evaluation process.”

bvongdou@hilltimes.com

The Hill Times


The Conservative Government’s Seven-point Plan on the F-35 Procurement

1. Freeze the fund envelope allocation for F-35 acquisition (Canada remains a partner in the JSF program).

2. Establish a secretariat within Public Works (the National Fighter Procurement Secretariat was created in June 2012 whose deputy minister governance committee meets every two weeks).

3. Provide annual updates to Parliament from the Department of National Defence, tabled 60 days from receipt of costing forecasts from JSF program office.

4. Continue to evaluate options for Canadian Forces fighter capability.

5. Commission an independent review of DND’s F-35 cost forecasting (KMPG was awarded the contract on Sept. 7, 2012, and the government released the audit on Dec. 12).

6. Review acquisition and sustainment costs through Treasury Board Secretariat (a request for proposal went out on Oct. 26 for a firm to conduct an independent review of the steps taken up to June 2012 in the acquisition process).

7. Identify industrial benefits for Canada and provide updates to Parliament from Industry Canada (a report was tabled Dec. 12).


Highlights of KPMG’s report

Breakdown of life-cycle costs for the F-35:

Development $491,000,000

Acquisition $8,388,000,000

Operating $19,960,000,000

Sustainment $13,290,000,000

Risk provision (contingency) $2,648,000,000

Disposal $43,000,000

Total Life Cycle Cost Estimate $44,820,000,000

Attrition Aircraft $982,000,000

Total Life Cycle Cost Estimate

(including Attrition) $45,802,000,000


Price per F-35: US$87.4-million “The JSF Program Office is only approximately 50 per cent confident that actual costs will be at or below this level. … The contingency required to establish an appropriate risk adjusted estimate would range between $1.1-billion and $2.5-billion. DND’s current contingency provision of $602-million neither falls within this range, nor does it meet DND’s estimates for contingency of $1.5-billion based on current assessment of risk.”


Because the government has stated it will not spend more than $9-billion on the acquisition of new fighter jets, a reduced number of jets will be required. “This could reduce the initial fleet to as low as 55 aircraft, which is below DND’s current stated requirements,” the KPMG report says.


I don't think many people would argue that we did not approach the F-35 acquisition the way we approached, say, the F-18, back when I was still serving. Perhaps, as others have suggested, because DND did so well with e.g. C-17 and C-130J "directed" or "sole source" procurements it was decided that something similar would work in other, less urgent, areas.  :dunno:
 
E.R. Campbell said:
And the "blame game" gets into second gear with this article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Hill Times, in which former ADM(Mat) Alan Williams slags almost everyone except himself:
:nod:
blame1.jpeg
 
Interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Ki86x1WKPmE&feature=colike
 
"Quote from: E.R. Campbell on Today at 08:22:16

    And the "blame game" gets into second gear with this article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Hill Times, in which former ADM(Mat) Alan Williams slags almost everyone except himself:


Must be a difficult life for Mr. Williams. Such perfection as his  is an isolating human condition and living such a faultless life, while concurrently bearing the heavy burden of having to point out how dumb other, ordinary people are is a burden only very special people can shoulder.

Canada is fortunate to have such human perfection in our midst and even more fortunate that such a magnificent human should deign to take the time from his perfect days to explain to us how stupid we all are.

Very lucky indeed.




 
Either not reading the document or just willfully stating wrong information to support your views. Its not 8.99 billion for acquisition with initial spares. This is the government breakdowns. I've marked X on things that IRBs would not apply, and ~ for things that IRBs might only partially apply:

F-35A    URF Total  5,992
Ancillary Equipment  246
~Training and Simulation  346   
~Support Equipment  379   
Autonomic Logistics  44   
X Manpower  371   
X Depot Stand-Up  14   
Initial Spares  259
X Programming Lab  216
X Infrastructure  244
X Ammunition  52
~Training  65
X Project Management Office  120
~Other  40
X Contingency (Note)  602 - Contingency funding may or may not happen. You can't really count something that you don't know what you might spend on, if at all, be paying for as a claim for IRBs.

So the Xs add up to 1.6 billion dollars... or $7.4 billion dollars that can be covered by the offsets. The ones marked by a ~ is difficult to be sure of, since some likely have some proportion of Canadian contracting contained within them. So no, its not $9 billion.

I agree that some of the money paid under the line items marked by 'X's would be paid to Canadians. Most wouldn't be however. The only line item I can see there that would be mostly paid to Canadians would be "infrastructure". The rest would mostly or all be to LM or other offshore companies.

If you disagree, pleas epoint out how "ammunition" would be totally paid to Canadians.

Contingency funding would be subject to IRB's if it's spent on non-Canadian products and services. Since most of the budget and especially most of the budget subject to cost -overuns is for non-Canadian line items, chances are pretty good IRB's will be required.

Again, you're not reading this right at all. This is the sustainment portion of the government's projections.

~Unit Level Consumption      5,357
X Depot Maintenance      791
X~ Contractor Support      1,979
~ Sustaining Support  4,530   
~ Other Support  633   
~Contingency  1,950
Sustainment Total  15,240

Depot maintenance will likely be done in Canada, and if contractor support is undertaken by an approved third party Canadian vendor (like Cascade with the C-130) then that could be excluded from the IRB total. Unit Level consumption includes labour costs, which means that a significant portion of that  $5 billion dollar line would not be hit by offsets. Its quite possible out of that $15 Billion, less than $10, if not $7 billion might come under the GCR. Contingency may never be spent and therefore really shouldn't be added to that total.

Depot maintenance may or may not be done in Canada, and may or may not need to be paid for through LM and therefore subject to IRB's if done through a "normal" process.

The rest of the line items will probably have Canadian content not subject to IRB's (or it might be the IRB's), but none of them are likely to be 100% Canadian.

As I said, this phase of the program development has not really started and will likely obtain significant levels of contracts going forward. Canada is a major MRO hub in the military and civil sectors and is poised to obtain a large segment of contracts in the future.

Maybe. Maybe not. Nobody can say for sure exactly what would happen under the MOU terms. We can however say exactly what would happen under the "normal" process, which is that there would be 100% offsets.
 
... “The whole procurement process was perverted from the beginning,” Mr. Williams said. “When you buy something, you start with a statement of requirements that’s open, fair, and transparent. And then, you search the marketplace to find the best product that meets those requirements. That’s what you do. It’s not that complicated.” Mr. Williams said bureaucrats recommended the F-35 based on “a very superficial options analysis, an incomplete options analysis that the Air Force had conducted themselves.” He said that the ADM material should have stepped in and said, “That’s not how we do business here.’” Instead, Mr. Williams said the ADM said, “Okay, I’ll take your very superficial analysis and I’ll tell the minister this is it.”

Mr. Williams said, “Right from the very beginning, the process was corrupted. And, right from the beginning, every argument that the government put out to support their decision was flawed and misleading. ... That’s where it all went wrong. Instead of the government simply saying, ‘Time out, you know, maybe we have been underestimating the cost and things aren’t quite right and the process is flawed and we should do this the right way,’ they’ve continued day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year, to continue down this insane road of deceit.”
...

When Mr. Williams says, "Right from the very beginning, the process was corrupted," does he mean RIGHT from the beginning, in 1997 when Canada signed on as a Level 1 participant, or five years later on 7 February 2002, when he was DND ADM(Material) and signed the JSF MOU on behalf of the Canadian Government, committing Canada to participation in the JSF program as a Level 3 partner?

Transcripts of Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld greeting Alan Williams in Washington to sign the Canada-U.S. JSF Level 3 MOU (link: http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=2610 ), and Mr. Williams stating:

Williams: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you Pete for your earlier remarks.

I too really value our personal friendship and the opportunity we have had over the last many months to work together on a number of issues. I look forward to building on this personal relationship in the future.

It's with great pleasure that I formally announce today Canada's participation with the United States and Great Britain in the systems development and demonstration phase of the Joint Strike Fighter program. Canada's decision to participate in the JSF program is yet another clear demonstration of the Canadian government's continuing commitment to North American security and industrial cooperation.

Participation in this internationally oriented technologically advanced program will assist us in our efforts to enhance interoperability with the U.S. and allies and provide us with a unique window into the leading edge technologies being developed for this world class weapon system.

In addition, Canadian industry will have an opportunity to provide its expertise to this important program. Through its ability to make a value-added contribution and its highly competitive position, Canadian industry will assist the U.S. prime contractors in their efforts to deliver a technologically advanced but affordable aircraft to the U.S. Department of Defense and allies.

In closing let me reiterate again how pleased I am to be working both with Pete Aldridge and Sir Robert Wolmsley on this important, innovative and forward-looking defense program.

Thank you very much.


...or does Mr. Williams not include himself in the initial problems, but instead imply that problems only became an issue three months later when Canadian Senators stated that: "...Canada’s decision to become one of the secondary partners in the JSF project is opportune because it allows this country to be involved in a major high technology project that can be of significant benefit to Canadian industry..." [perhaps ignore for a moment the very similar wording to what Mr. Williams said three months earlier in February of that year.]

(Link: SCONDVA's 30 May 2002 Report "Facing Our Responsibilities:  The State of Readiness of the Canadian Forces" - CHAPTER 4: CANADIAN MILITARY CONTRIBUTIONS TO INTERNATIONAL STABILITY - Section L: Modernizing the Rest of the Air Force )


It is very interesting to see the responses of Mr. Williams to Members of Parliament regarding how one can be part of a program (JSF), yet somehow not infer any commitment to procure the output of the very program to which one is participating.

Mr. Hawn's questions are interesting, particularly those on the subject of the known original timelines needed to replace the CF-18 that he posits Mr. Williams should have been aware of, as well as questions relating to over 4,500 projects over $25,000 that Mr. Williams approved to be sole-sourced.

(Link: 40th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION - Standing Committee on National Defence - EVIDENCE - CONTENTS - Thursday, October 7, 2010)


One can't help but scratch their head a bit at how some believe that there is absolutely no connection between a Nation formally committing to collaborate with a group of other Nations in a major aerospace program to benefit that Nation's own aerospace industry, and any expectation, however remote, that that Nation considers seriously participating further in such a program through commitment to acquire the aircraft.


Regards
G2G
 
Good2Golf said:
.... It is very interesting to see the responses of Mr. Williams to Members of Parliament regarding how one can be part of a program (JSF), yet somehow not infer any commitment to procure the output of the very program to which one is participating ....
This is the line coming from at least one Liberal MP, too:
our government funded a technology not F-35
 
"When Mr. Williams says, "Right from the very beginning, the process was corrupted," does he mean RIGHT from the beginning, in 1997 when Canada signed on as a Level 1 participant, or five years later on 7 February 2002, when he was DND ADM(Material) and signed the JSF MOU on behalf of the Canadian Government, committing Canada to participation in the JSF program as a Level 3 partner?"

His  memory says it did happen.

His conscience says it is better it hadn't happened.

Gradually his memory yields to the convenience of his conscience.

 
drunknsubmrnr said:
I agree that some of the money paid under the line items marked by 'X's would be paid to Canadians. Most wouldn't be however. The only line item I can see there that would be mostly paid to Canadians would be "infrastructure". The rest would mostly or all be to LM or other offshore companies.

If you disagree, pleas epoint out how "ammunition" would be totally paid to Canadians.


First, this line is would not be part of the overall fighter's IRB requirements, for this program or any other Canada may pursue. Ammunition is bought in separate contracts with completely different manufacturers; I don't believe that LM actually makes cannon ammunition. Its not part of the MOU either... just like gas or any other consumables are. If we did a foreign procurement IRBs would apply.

Second most of the goods in that category can and will be locally procured. I can think of two Canadian companies that can produce 25mm cannon ammunition (GDS OTS produces 20mm rounds for the CF-18s), and several that can make Chaff/flares. So for several different reasons it wouldn't be included.

drunknsubmrnr said:
Contingency funding would be subject to IRB's if it's spent on non-Canadian products and services. Since most of the budget and especially most of the budget subject to cost -overuns is for non-Canadian line items, chances are pretty good IRB's will be required.

Maybe, but you can't go and identify something that is not attached to any category and claim it as part of the IRB total. You can't identify who it might go to, or whether it will even be used at all.

drunknsubmrnr said:
Depot maintenance may or may not be done in Canada, and may or may not need to be paid for through LM and therefore subject to IRB's if done through a "normal" process.

L3 MAS already has that contract, so it will be done in Canada.

http://www.mas.l-3com.com/doc/Press_Release/15-F35_HQ_Approved_EN.pdf

drunknsubmrnr said:
The rest of the line items will probably have Canadian content not subject to IRB's (or it might be the IRB's), but none of them are likely to be 100% Canadian.

So manpower wouldn't be paid to Canadians? (foreign contractor's employees are never paid for as "Canadian personnel")
Project management office is Canadian (the 20+ staff members on the JSF board have to be paid and supported somehow)


drunknsubmrnr said:
Maybe. Maybe not. Nobody can say for sure exactly what would happen under the MOU terms. We can however say exactly what would happen under the "normal" process, which is that there would be 100% offsets.

And yet you continue to ignore the whole discussion about the really negative effects that offsets have, preferring to just focus on the pure numbers.

Here's a reading list for you to go through that makes it pretty clear why other countries have either reconsidered the use of offsets or removed their requirement entirely:
Emerson Report research study on IRBs
The proper use of offsets in international trade
Economic Aspects of Offsets
Chapter 2 on the Australian experience

As it should be clear, our offset policy really doesn't have much benefit for Canadian compaines. If you want to have an informed discussion on the relative benefits of different industrial involvement models, I'm all for it. Hell if you want an informed discussion on the JSF program I'm happy to engage. However if you just want to make this stage to attack the F-35 program and push your pre-determined viewpoint, can you please state that upfront? This is frankly starting to get tiring, particularly when you're throwing factually incorrect assertions at me from commentators who actually don't know what they are talking about, and then defending them as an accurate portrayal of the situation.
 
First, this line is would not be part of the overall fighter's IRB requirements, for this program or any other Canada may pursue. Ammunition is bought in separate contracts with completely different manufacturers; I don't believe that LM actually makes cannon ammunition. Its not part of the MOU either... just like gas or any other consumables are. If we did a foreign procurement IRBs would apply.

Interesting. Good to know, thanks.

Second most of the goods in that category can and will be locally procured. I can think of two Canadian companies that can produce 25mm cannon ammunition (GDS OTS produces 20mm rounds for the CF-18s), and several that can make Chaff/flares. So for several different reasons it wouldn't be included.

We make AMRAAM, AIM-9X and Mk-8x bombs? Since when?

Maybe, but you can't go and identify something that is not attached to any category and claim it as part of the IRB total.

It is a catgeory, and would have to be paid as the contingency funding is spent, if it's spent on foreign goods or services. That's one reason 40% of the total IRB's are spread of the life of the project.

So manpower wouldn't be paid to Canadians? (foreign contractor's employees are never paid for as "Canadian personnel")
Project management office is Canadian (the 20+ staff members on the JSF board have to be paid and supported somehow)

Foreign contractors costs would have to be offset somehow. And they're expensive, once you through in lodging and per diem.

And yet you continue to ignore the whole discussion about the really negative effects that offsets have, preferring to just focus on the pure numbers.

Yes, I do. And so will most of the Canadians reading about this story in the media.

As it should be clear, our offset policy really doesn't have much benefit for Canadian compaines.

What makes you think the point is to offer benefits for Canadian companies?

If you want to have an informed discussion on the relative benefits of different industrial involvement models, I'm all for it. However if you just want to make this stage to attack the F-35 program and push your pre-determined viewpoint, keep on going.

My pre-determined viewpoint is that the "normal" process offers more IRB's than the MOU process. That's it.
 
drunknsubmrnr said:
We make AMRAAM, AIM-9X and Mk-8x bombs? Since when?

That's not ammunition, nor would it be considered in any program. Ammunition is cannon rounds and other operational consumables like flares and chaff. What you're talking about is ordinance, which is bought separately because they are not produced by LM or part of the MOU process.

drunknsubmrnr said:
It is a catgeory, and would have to be paid as the contingency funding is spent, if it's spent on foreign goods or services. That's one reason 40% of the total IRB's are spread of the life of the project.

ITs a category that may or may be used at all or may go to Canadian industries. You can't identify who it might go to or why, so it can't be counted at this point in time. Doing so really just seems like an attempt to make the project look bad, when


drunknsubmrnr said:
Yes, I do. And so will most of the Canadians reading about this story in the media.

So that gives you the right to act with complete ignorance of the fact provided? Forgive me, I thought this was a forum for reasonable, intelligent discussion.



drunknsubmrnr said:
What makes you think the point is to offer benefits for Canadian companies?

Oh I don't know, it might be the first line of Industry Canada's website?

Canada's Industrial and Regional Benefits (IRB) Policy ensures that Canadian industry benefit from Government defence and security procurement.



drunknsubmrnr said:
My pre-determined viewpoint is that the "normal" process offers more IRB's than the MOU process. That's it.

Aspects of which are questionable or wrong through a whole range of perspectives backed up by evidence. Firms that have received offsets in the past and are part of the JSF partnership, have stated the latter are much preferable and effective at delivering industrial development. IC and DND officials hold the same view. Academics who are specialists in defence procurement generally agree as well. Is there risk involved? Yes, absolutely. However they are judged to be acceptable compared to the potential windfall. Its not just the value of the contracts but the ability to get Canadian companies implanted into foreign supplier chains, that will provide them future opportunities in other programs. That was actually one of the main recommendations of the Emerson Report. 

Also as a final note I'm not against IRBs in all cases. I'd rather follow a more flexible approach towards our defence procurement, where in some cases we go with IRBs, and in others we might forgo aspects of the law in order to obtain greater benefits. However in the case of the F-35, the policy is just so much more advantageous than the normal approach to IRBs from a public policy standpoint. Yet, the policy is not great politics, mostly because people want to attack the program and are using factually incorrect information in order to support their attacks.



 
That's not ammunition, nor would it be considered in any program. Ammunition is cannon rounds and other operational consumables like flares and chaff. What you're talking about is ordinance, which is bought separately because they are not produced by LM or part of the MOU process.

Why is it counted under the program as "Ammunition" and not "Operations"? And where is the line item for "Ordnance"?

ITs a category that may or may be used at all or may go to Canadian industries. You can't identify who it might go to or why, so it can't be counted at this point in time.

I really doubt that it won't be used, although there is a question of just which part of the project will over-run. It has to be counted at some point, and at least some of it is likely to require IRB's. Most of the budget and the parts most likely to over-run would be subject to IRB's.

So that gives you the right to act with complete ignorance of the fact provided?

Those were opinions, not facts. There's a huge difference, which pretty much represents the problems that a lot of Canadians have with the F-35 program. The facts may indicate that the F-35 is a good idea, but the majority opinion appears to be the opposite. I really doubt that a lot of Canadians know or care about the difference in costing between $25 billion over 20 years, or $45 billion or 40 years, or what IRB benefit quality is. They can tell you that a firm 100% of $9 billion sounds better than a maybe commitment of up to $9 billion.

Personally, I agree with you on most of what you're saying on the ideas behind IRB and the actual benefits of the IRB program, but most Canadians would not.

Oh I don't know, it might be the first line of Industry Canada's website?

Lets just say that we need a squealing pig emoticon. THAT is the IRB purpose, and is pretty much what their website says when you read it.
 
"Hence misleading headlines such as that the "F-35 costs five times original estimates."

How a respectable journalist who doesn't chug Harper Derangement Syndrome Kool Aide describes the outright lies and misrepresentations his compadres have been spewing about the A-35.


Matthew Fisher dissects the recent coverage of the F-35 and leaves his peers sliced, diced and on the floor.



Read more: http://www.leaderpost.com/technology/still%2Bcomparative%2Bbest%2Boption/7712571/story.html#ixzz2FPPwWZkt
 
HB_Pencil said:
So that gives you the right to act with complete ignorance of the fact provided? Forgive me, I thought this was a forum for reasonable, intelligent discussion.

Easy lad,............punch your teddy bear a few times before you post.
Bruce
Staff
 
That's not ammunition, nor would it be considered in any program. Ammunition is cannon rounds and other operational consumables like flares and chaff.

Your statement is absolutely wrong.  As well, if the JSF project is going down the route of procuring a system without programming the costs of the ammunition into it, they are setting themselves up for not only another public perception failure, but a real life one as well.
 
AmmoTech90 said:
Your statement is absolutely wrong.  As well, if the JSF project is going down the route of procuring a system without programming the costs of the ammunition into it ...
He is not saying that.  The cost of ammunition is calculated into the projected life cycle costs and there will be project money for initial procurements to reach FOC.  What he is trying to say is that ammunition does not come from the same manufacturer as the aircraft - it is a separate contract that would be subject to its own IRBs.  Unfortunately for him, he and his message got lost down a rabbit hole of another (in this case inaccurate) idea.  The CF does not distinguish ammunition and ordinance as different things in procurement.
 
It's not a rabbit hole if the person making the statement starts off wrong.  He gave a half-assed explanation and carried on.  Sort of similar to what you see in the media.

If the RCAF JSF came to FOC without firing a missile or dropping a bomb then there might be a slight problem.  Those items of ammunition expended in testing still have to be paid for, in this case the replacement cost.  Has JSF budgeted for that?
 
AmmoTech90 said:
It's not a rabbit hole if the person making the statement starts off wrong.  He gave a half-assed explanation and carried on.  Sort of similar to what you see in the media.
He started down the rabbit hole in an earlier post and what you commented on was well down the path to Wonderland.  His point was that the the aircraft manufacture is only on the hook for IRBs related to their contract for goods & services.  Items procured from other contractors or lifecycle costs incurred by the CF (ie personnel costs) are not something for which a manufacture is responsible to provide IRBs.

We can all accept that his comment about ammunition and ordinance is not reflective of how the CF sees things.  Therefore, I would not recommend delving deeper into the rabbit hole by applying his definitions to the CF process and declaring that we have failed to allocate funding to some ammunition.
 
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