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F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sharpey
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SupersonicMax said:
DAS is one thing... There are way more coming up  as well.

Certainly DAS, the Electro Optical Targeting System, Infra Red Search and Track, An/APG-81 Radar and the Sensor fusion system that bind them all are all exceptional capabilities. That, more than low observable or its aerodynamic performance, are critical for its viability.

However I personally think that the Autonomic Logistics Information System, and other prognostic capabilities are the biggest breakthrough. These systems are right now in early development, but they have the potential of revolutionizing how we maintain and sustain fighters. We're seeing some of this with the C-130J, but the F-35 is on another level. Without them the capability will be unaffordable and likely to collapse in failure.
 
HB_Pencil said:
Certainly DAS, the Electro Optical Targeting System, Infra Red Search and Track, An/APG-81 Radar and the Sensor fusion system that bind them all are all exceptional capabilities. That, more than low observable or its aerodynamic performance, are critical for its viability.

However I personally think that the Autonomic Logistics Information System, and other prognostic capabilities are the biggest breakthrough. These systems are right now in early development, but they have the potential of revolutionizing how we maintain and sustain fighters. We're seeing some of this with the C-130J, but the F-35 is on another level. Without them the capability will be unaffordable and likely to collapse in failure.

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HB_Pencil said:
Certainly DAS, the Electro Optical Targeting System, Infra Red Search and Track, An/APG-81 Radar and the Sensor fusion system that bind them all are all exceptional capabilities. That, more than low observable or its aerodynamic performance, are critical for its viability.

However I personally think that the Autonomic Logistics Information System, and other prognostic capabilities are the biggest breakthrough. These systems are right now in early development, but they have the potential of revolutionizing how we maintain and sustain fighters. We're seeing some of this with the C-130J, but the F-35 is on another level. Without them the capability will be unaffordable and likely to collapse in failure.

Agreed . . .  excellent, succinct summary.

 
HB_Pencil said:
However I personally think that the Autonomic Logistics Information System, and other prognostic capabilities are the biggest breakthrough. These systems are right now in early development, but they have the potential of revolutionizing how we maintain and sustain fighters. We're seeing some of this with the C-130J, but the F-35 is on another level. Without them the capability will be unaffordable and likely to collapse in failure.

Early development means they are not in production.  Not in production means you should not buy a system based on the promise, as it may fail or may become cost-prohibitive to proceed with development.

Besides, just-in-time logistics works in peacetime.  In war, it's a tad more difficult and should be avoided wherever possible.
 
dapaterson said:
Besides, just-in-time logistics works in peacetime.  In war, it's a tad more difficult and should be avoided wherever possible.
Last time I checked we are in peacetime  ;D
 
Eaglelord17 said:
Last time I checked we are in peacetime  ;D
Right now, maybe - you have a crystal ball saying this'll be the case forever?
 
No i'm not saying this will be the case forever, but by the same regard we shouldn't buy something second rate just because its quick and we could 'possibly' be at war tomorrow. Take the time to get something which is excellent and will last a long time as we all know they will be in service until they pretty much cannot fly and all the technology is dated.
 
dapaterson said:
Early development means they are not in production.  Not in production means you should not buy a system based on the promise, as it may fail or may become cost-prohibitive to proceed with development.

Besides, just-in-time logistics works in peacetime.  In war, it's a tad more difficult and should be avoided wherever possible.

The F-35 is in production and what they are doing for support is  not "just in time"  logistics.

 
F-35 is in low-rate initial production; the a/c being produced today are not in the final configuration or even in the first operational configuration.  We are still several iterations away from that.

My comment, as well, was discussing software systems that are not in production, but in development.  One would be advised to read "The Mythical Man-Month" in any consideration of software development timelines, and take any promises of software revolution with a rather large grain of salt.
 
dapaterson said:
Early development means they are not in production.  Not in production means you should not buy a system based on the promise, as it may fail or may become cost-prohibitive to proceed with development.

I disagree with that completely and its actually a needlessly constricting system. It basically limits Canada's ability to obtain modern capabilities that will allow it to operate more effectively in operations. The alternative, is to purchase mature systems that are often later in their life cycles.

They get obsolete earlier, which means we must fund a replacement earlier or pay for upgrades alone. Consider the F/A-18E. You would consider it a safe system, so if we purchase it now and it gets delivered in 2015, then we would have it for 15 years before it gets phased out completely by the United States Navy. Then we're forced to maintain an obsolete system or buy a new system earlier than if we had participated in a development process.

Participating in a development project also allows us to build a capability that suits our requirements. However no company is going to take on the risk to carry out a development project without government support. Furthermore modifying an existing capability to meet national requirements can also be cost prohibitive and remove much of the cost savings you're trying to realize.

Even worse, off the shelf is terrible industrial policy. It prevents canadian firms from engaging into defence market and is an inefficient way to spend funding. The industrial opportunities for such programs are limited, because their manufacturing processes are usually established. Instead we carry out IRBs which cannot sustain industry in a meaningful way. The F-35 program illustrates how Canada can reap the benefits of entering into the development process and obtain significant returns.

This is not to say that OTS is a bad policy, its just not very good to carry out all manner of procurement. Sometimes to get the systems the country needs, development programs are required. And yes there are risks, absolutely. The Cyclone was a very bad risk, with very obvious warning signs.  However there in the rush to be "sensible," making OTS our only procurement method will end up costing the government more money, while spending it in a less efficient manner. 

dapaterson said:
Besides, just-in-time logistics works in peacetime.  In war, it's a tad more difficult and should be avoided wherever possible.

Actually, there are distinct advantages of the F-35's system in wartime as well. ITs components will be modular and easier to replace. Air crews would  only be responsible for replacing the parts, rather than spending time fixing them. In war time it would be less just in time, as units would carry larger stocks on hand to meet demand.  That would allow crews to replace parts quicker and maintain a higher operational tempo on their aircraft compared to our current generation of fighters. ALIS should also enable better management of aircraft; less time needed for diagnostics, repairs ect, more effective parts management.

 
I like coming to this site.

There are so many people here who are either involved with the military or who have been involved with the military in the past.

They all bring valuable information to the table regarding several different topics, and the F-35 debate is one of these topics.

But then there's the downside, where we all get so enveloped in the discussion going on here that we read and see things that stimulate us to respond - just like I'm doing now.

Let's face it - some people will like certain proposed acquisitions, and some won't.  When we read whatever is planned we then all flock to this place to express either our rage or our support for said purchase.  Nobody is really going to convince someone on an internet forum that the acquisition is a good one if the party has already stated that they're against it.

We can share information about the program in hopes that people will develop a greater understanding of the project - but in the grand scheme of things, we can only really share what is new and pertinent.  As this is a fighter acquisition, the major milestones and problems of the program are going to be made public.  When they are, people will look at the information and apply it to their personal decision about the program.

At times like this, it really shouldn't come down to personal attacks, emoticons vs. a lack of emoticons, or any other scenario - it should come down to what is on the table for others to read.

Sorry for venting, but the dialogue on this is getting a bit old.
 
HB_Pencil said:
Air crews would  only be responsible for replacing the parts, rather than spending time fixing them.

You mean groundcrew. They're the ones who fix what we aircrew return to them after a flight.
 
HB_Pencil said:
Actually, there are distinct advantages of the F-35's system in wartime as well. ITs components will be modular and easier to replace. Air crews would  only be responsible for replacing the parts, rather than spending time fixing them. In war time it would be less just in time, as units would carry larger stocks on hand to meet demand.  That would allow crews to replace parts quicker and maintain a higher operational tempo on their aircraft compared to our current generation of fighters. ALIS should also enable better management of aircraft; less time needed for diagnostics, repairs ect, more effective parts management.

Note this is an issue throughtout today's military supply chain, and not merely the F-35.  The question is simple:  If we do not maintain  adequate peacetime stocks of spares, where will these larger stocks come from in times of war?

That is how we delude ourselves - by scrimping at peace, only to find at war that production lines cannot ramp up to meet demand, and that we are then stuck in line with the others, awaiting parts.


It would be fascinating to read "The CF Supply Managers' History of Afghanistan".  Unfortunately, I doubt that book will ever be written.
 
Loachman said:
You mean groundcrew. They're the ones who fix what we aircrew return to them after a flight.

Sorry about the typo, yes, that's what I meant. 

dapaterson said:
Note this is an issue throughtout today's military supply chain, and not merely the F-35.  The question is simple:  If we do not maintain  adequate peacetime stocks of spares, where will these larger stocks come from in times of war?

That is how we delude ourselves - by scrimping at peace, only to find at war that production lines cannot ramp up to meet demand, and that we are then stuck in line with the others, awaiting parts.

If this is your concern, then you should be supporting the F-35. For most aircraft available for Canada to purchase, there won't be a production line to produce spare parts because they have long closed and the part isn't produced anymore. For our CF-18s in Libya, they were forced to cannibalize deployed aircraft to keep others flying because they couldn't obtain the necessary parts and it took too long to fix the ones that needed replacing.

The F-35 being a project currently in development and projected to include 3000+ aircraft over 20 years of production means that there will be constant production of spares for most of the aircraft's lifespan, compared to maybe the first 5 years for some of these programs. So we won't be struggling to fix components because they are 30 years old and have no realistic replacement currently in service. Moreover the JSF will have a global supply pool that will enable Canada to draw upon stocks from different countries and companies. There will likely be several different depots world wide (such as in Australia, Europe, and Turkey), which will aid in its flexibility. None of this exists for any other fighter currently in service, except in a piecemeal fashion with the F-16.


Prognostic systems also aid in this. It can identify future faults with aircraft, which might not need replacement immediately, but maybe in 3 or 4 flights ahead. That means a part can be ordered from our home stocks or one of the foreign depots... so you might have several days warning before a part needs replacement, rather than discovering it when it breaks.

One key part is that the F-35 will require a comparatively greater investment for a stockpile upfront at our bases to get the optimum operation of its sustainment system. This cost will be remunerated over time, as you will have less operational disruption as you wait for components to be sent back to the depot or OEM for repairs. This would assist in times of war, as those stocks can be utilized first and additional items brought in as needed (and providing flexibility in case of disruption.)

As a final note, I think the F-35B and C have had a key influence on the project from an foreign deployed standpoint. Their considerations have forced simplified maintenance process and a focus on deployability. The fact that Bs are expected to be deployed from forward operating bases has been a critical influence on its design. All of the aircraft's components are design to be carried on a C-2 Greyhound (or I think a V-22), and only require something like 6 tools to do all jobs. That's a far more austere environment than the RCAF would generally expect to operate in. The Key Performance Parameters include sustainability metrics for number of flights a day, and the amount of cargo it requires to keep the aircraft flying.

Its a complex system, but its alot more flexible than the traditional approach that almost everybody currently uses. It is significantly more efficient than our peacetime system, and will likely be more effective at war time.
 
HB_Pencil said:
For most aircraft available for Canada to purchase, there won't be a production line to produce spare parts because they have long closed and the part isn't produced anymore.

That not entirely accurate. Aircraft parts are available, from multiple sources for a great many years after an aircraft ceases to be produced. I fly a 30+ year old machine and parts are in the system, both OEM and others.

For our CF-18s in Libya, they were forced to cannibalize deployed aircraft to keep others flying because they couldn't obtain the necessary parts and it took too long to fix the ones that needed replacing.

Even with a new aircraft, there will be canibalization and the "hangar queen" will continue to exist.

So we won't be struggling

Overly optimistic.

 
Loachman said:
You mean groundcrew. They're the ones who fix what we aircrew return to them after a flight.

No, no it's the Aircrew who break the aircraft in the first place, they're the one's responsible for the parts (needing) to be changed by the under appreciated (at least in war movies/books) Groundcrew.  :D
 
CDN Aviator said:
That not entirely accurate. Aircraft parts are available, from multiple sources for a great many years after an aircraft ceases to be produced. I fly a 30+ year old machine and parts are in the system, both OEM and others.

I'm not claiming that its universally true for all parts, but stocks do get consumed over time and scarcity is a problem. As an extreme I look at the USAF's experience with the A-10 program, where some parts manufacturers ceased production almost a 30 years ago. The service have had to commission newly designed parts because the stocks were exhausted and no blueprints for them currently exist. This has been a key driver of KC-135 not capable rates.

CDN Aviator said:
Even with a new aircraft, there will be canibalization and the "hangar queen" will continue to exist.

Certainly, but the PBL model is intended to minimize this behavior by introducing more effective fleet and parts management. This is part of the reason why the RCAF has decided it can do with less F-35s than the current number of CF-18s. This is an older paper, but it gives a decent overview of how the networked side is intended to work.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:EjZmoWx0F3gJ:ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFullText/RTO/MP/RTO-MP-079-II///MP-079(II)-(SM)-41.pdf+Joint+Strike+Fighter+Engine+Prognostics+%26+Health+Management+(PHM)+Program.&hl=en&gl=ph&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh2ms_6RJm4Kp3XPDkQkWqBPTcetjGpx5g16aN081FbG7x9BbWk3hz4UHUUVMAL9FA7Rd_90ytDFTkuIQ_vrTrASWJWViHLXLsRSmBHnw4xtgd5BgrmiW7pLQZxUugY0uyh929f&sig=AHIEtbRZfhjrSS9nPOF-YA3Ak5m8utZiuQ

CDN Aviator said:
Overly optimistic.

Sure it is if we're going to just do the old system and ignore the advantages of the new system it will be overly optimistic. However as maintenance crews will be trained at Eglin, its more a question about how well we implement that system.

http://www.asdnews.com/news-44920/F-35A_Maintenance_Training_on_Track.htm

Again, this is all speculative but its the main driver for affordability in the fighter, which even the PM has labeled as the most important function he's currently overseeing.
 
HB_Pencil said:
This is part of the reason why the RCAF has decided it can do with less F-35s than the current number of CF-18s.

The only reason is cost. 65 is what we could afford for the money the GoC wanted to spend. Any other stated reasons are nothing more than justification after the fact, no matter how good it sounds.

but stocks do get consumed over time and scarcity is a problem

Those are issues that the F-35 will not escape. Block production (just like the "tranche" system for Typhoon) was designed to mitigate obsolescence and parts supply issues.

advantages of the new system

I've been around long enough to have seen many "latest and greatest" systems to know to temper my enthusiasm for what the glossy brochures say. Supply systems never function as advertised under the pressures of real-world operation.

 
The JSF ILS concept.

"The JSF program is in a unique position to fully take advantage of modern technologies to
significantly reduce operational and support cost as well as to be able to design the air vehicle with these
aging aircraft problems in mind. In order to do this, the JSF program has devised a revolutionary new
support concept called Autonomic Logistics. The aim and over-arching strategy of Autonomic Logistics is
to provide a comprehensive logistic support environment for the JSF by including the following key
features:

A highly reliable and maintainable (R+M) designed intelligent aircraft which encompasses a
comprehensive Prognostics and Health Management (PHM) capability to enhance flight safety, improve
efficiency of the logistics chain, and allow scheduling of logistic events to compliment operational
planning.

A technologically enabled maintainer who, through the use of innovative and automated tools and
technical publications, will be capable of efficiently and effectively maintaining the JSF with less
specialized training and more “on the spot” training. This will be accomplished by the use of Interactive
Electronic Tech Manuals (IETM’s) and will allow the use of fewer maintainers, cross trained over many
sub-systems.

A fully capable Joint Distributed Information System (JDIS) that incorporates advanced
information technology to provide decision support tools and an effective communication network linking
the JSF with the logistics infrastructure to provide proactive support.

A logistics infrastructure that is sufficiently responsive to support requirements within a timeframe
that allows the JSF weapon system to generate the required number of effective sorties at the least cost.
These four elements of Autonomic Logistics each have a vital role to play in establishing a new
paradigm of affordability of the Joint Strike Fighter weapon system for the 21st century. This paper
discusses these elements and how they will be used to mitigate the problems associated with an aging
aircraft fleet. Figure 1 shows a notional for how these four elements come together to “hold up ” the overall
view of Autonomic Logistics."

RTR  Attached

If they get close to this in the slippage between concept and reality it will be a big step in the right direction.

 
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