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Enough- [A Must Read on Our Success in Afghanistan]

MG
some good points.  Also, considering the lame contribution Canada provided to NATO throughout the Cold war, it's about time we carried our weight around.

WRT the whining and bellyaching - The Gov't must cop a "mea culpa" on that subject.  I do not think we did a very good job of making Canadians understand what the H we were doing over there and why.
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
Gimpy:  Mortar Guy has been doing a helluva lot more than "research" on this subject, as I should have thought you would have found obvious had you read the comments following up his posts.  It isn't a college essay or a peer-reviewed article requiring footnoting, fer chrissakes - give us all a break.

I don't see a need for you to get so defensive. I read his whole post and all the comments and I made a comment of my own. I didn't ask for extensive footnoting or for it to be a college essay, I merely made a suggestion that for the average Canadian without a great wealth of knowledge on the topic to fully grasp it there should be at least one example that people can just punch into a search engine and get more info. I also asked for his personal suggestions on more reading information on the topic because I read all his posts and since it is clear from his writing he is an expert on the topic I wanted to see what his reading suggestions were so I could do some reading of my own.

If you will refer to this post http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/65476/post-606303.html#msg606303 Mortar Guy himself says that I raise a good point and he gave me plenty of information, so the issue has been taken care of and there is no need to delve further into it.
 
Mortar Guy: well said. Educating our fellow citizens is an uphill fight, and one that I believe we owe to the dead and their families, if for no other reason. I do it every chance I get, although it is frustrating to watch the eyeballs glaze over as they realize that they (and the "sources" they regard as "truth") actually know little or nothing about the situation there.

To be fair, there has been some excellent, some good and some mediocre reportage. There has also been some crappy reportage, but I bet if you look closely you will find that the real problem is not with in-theatre reporters: they more or less "get it". The real problem IMHO is the commentators, "military experts"  and op-ed columnists (insert name of favourite idiot here) who are longing for total mission failure in Afghanistan so that their pet theories are "proven". These are the folks whose efforts we need to counter. My advice to everybody on this site, especially those of us who have "been over":  write to the editor, immediately, and hit back with facts. Call in to the radio station, with facts. Talk to Joe Toque in the street, or even talk to your idiot in-law who starts spouting off about "bringin' them troops home". Talk, talk, talk. If we don't, who will? The Government?  ::)

Wootan:good to see you here. I believe we last met when you spoke at CFC. This is a fine site and your input is great value. Too bad some other senior officers can't have a bit more reasonable view about Army.ca.

Cheers
 
Well written article!  A must read for all Canadians.

I also think there has been some good reportage, but aside from a desire to hear more about the good and not just the deaths, I also wish they'd go to intelligent people when looking for soundbites.  Yes, people can have their opinion, but when it's an uniformed one you only compound the ignorance of other people like them who have formed their opinions without looking at the facts and considering the consequences.

My family is watching the local news, who just showed an online poll saying that 55% of voters think we should get out now.  ... for many reasons this enrages me, but what hurts the most is that these people are saying to me that the lives of the countless innocent Afghanis who'd be murdered by returning Taliban don't matter.  That level of selfishness is one of our major flaws as a priviledged western society.  Consequently, I'm proud to say to the point of choking emotion when I boast that OUR men and women are doing their best to make the lives for these people a little better!
 
pbi: Travers, Walkom, Lawrence Martin, Salutin, Scott Taylor, Margolis, Michael Harris, Giggles Taber, Craig Oliver, Michael Byers,

http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/009975.html

Steve Staples, et al., et al.,...

http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/07/time-for-little-non-hysterical-context.html
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/06/defence-sole-sourcing.html
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2006/10/canadian-defence-spending-compared-to.html

Further suggestions welcome.

Mark
Ottawa

 
Further to my point about confronting ignorance:

After I read Christi Blachfords' latest called "Taliban Targets Canadians With
Renewed Vigour" there was the online comments section.

I found this:
Etienne from Japan writes: "Rome," Lt.-Col. Chamberlain says, "wasn't built in a day, and neither will Afghanistan be."

Really? I suppose that after 3000 years of demolition derby in Afghanistan, it will be built by G. Bush and a few Canucks?

Let's get the hell out of there. We have two main tribes in this country and we barely can stand each other. What lessons do we have for the hundreds of groups over there????

I replied:
You  wrote: Etienne,
What lessons do we have for Afghans?
1. Women are people too. They have a right to live free and vote.
Thank a soldier
2. Children have a right to live free from disease and ignorance.
Thank a soldier
3. Law and order are good and productive things.
Thank a soldier.
4. Canadians have the right to not capitulate to terroristism.
Thanks to all the brave Men and women of the Canadian Military.

I think I got it from somewhere else but you know what I mean.
Confront the stupid.
PLEASE let me know who I've stolen this from - if I have - I can't remember  :-[
 
Flip: You may be thinking of this:
http://www.ausa.org/webpub/DeptNCOStuff.nsf/byid/CTON-6CFQ9H

It is the Soldier

It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.

A protest raged on a courthouse lawn,
Round a makeshift stage they charged on,
Fifteen hundred or more they say,
Had come to burn a Flag that day.

A boy held up the folded Flag,
Cursed it, and called it a dirty rag.
An OLD MAN pushed through the angry crowd,
With a rusty shotgun shouldered proud.

His uniform jacket was old and tight,
He had polished each button, shiny and bright.
He crossed that stage with a soldier's grace,
Until he and the boy stood face to face.

"FREEDOM OF SPEECH," the OLD MAN said,
"Is worth dying for, good men are dead,
So you can stand on this courthouse lawn,
And talk us down from dusk to dawn,
But before any Flag gets burned today,
This OLD MAN IS GOING TO HAVE HIS SAY!

My father died on a foreign shore,
In a war they said would end all war.
But Tommy and I wasn't even full grown,
Before we fought in a war of our own.
And Tommy died on Iwo Jima's beach,
In the shadow of a hill he couldn't quite reach,
Where five good men raised this Flag so high,
That the WHOLE DAMN WORLD COULD SEE IT FLY.

I got this bum leg that I still drag,
Fighting for this same old Flag.
Now there's but one shot in this old gun,
So now it's time to decide which one,
Which one of you will follow our lead,
To stand and die for what you believe?
For as sure as there is a rising sun,
You'll burn in Hell 'fore this Flag burns, son"

Now this riot never came to pass
The crowd got quiet and that can of gas,
Got set aside as they walked away
To talk about what they had heard this day.
And the boy who had called it a "dirty rag,"
Handed the OLD SOLDIER the folded Flag.

So the battle of the Flag this day was won
By a tired OLD SOLDIER with a rusty gun,
Who for one last time, had to show to some,
THIS FLAG MAY FADE, BUT THESE COLORS DON'T RUN.

Mark
Ottawa



 
Living in the GTA I hear the comment "we should just get out" frequently. Then the speaker will look at me quizzically expecting me to confirm this populist view. Unfortunately my conscience won't allow me to jump on and agree.
I don't find it hard via the internet and "good" MSM journalism to be well informed on the battle in Afghanistan. And I don't think it's a sure thing that ISAF can win. I can see the west gradually loosing interest and fading away in a diminishing number of underfunded and under supported projects.
BUT....I do think the battle is worth the fighting. Canada, Britian, the Dutch, Americans and other NATO countries are making their contributions. Some with more commitment than others.
So while Mortar Guy's points are well taken and I repeat I think the battle is a worthy cause and the right thing for the west to be doing my fear is that the mission will fail due to the lack of commitment of troops and treasure as the years go by.
I should add that Pakistan is always a player in this mix of confusing factors affecting mission outcome.

And I think many Canadians also think along these lines as they watch the casualties mount.
 
pbi - I agree there have been some good reports and good journalists but most times there stories focus on "human interest" themes. By that I mean they talk about the lives of soldiers and their daily experiences rather than the mission's successes. All good stuff but not necessarily focussed on what we need.

Baden Guy - I totally agree about the commitment issue. If ISAF had the same resources that KFOR did when I was there, Afghanistan would probably be a peaceful place right now! Some neat comparisons between ISAF and KFOR:

- In 1999 there were 66,000 troops in KFOR. Kosovo is roughly the same size, and has the same population as Kandahar province!

- Although people say we are throwing lots of money at Afghanistan, that country has received 26 times less aid per capita than Kosovo did in 1999-2001.

- Based purely on per capita figures, if the west were to contribute to Afghanistan on the same scale as Kosovo, we would need to base about 1.3 million soldiers in the former! And Kosovo was a relatively peaceful theatre with a population wholly supportive of the NATO mission!

Even if we just doubled the size of ISAF we would have a much better chance of success. However, that being said, I don't think all is lost as we are still seeing progress every year.

MG
 
Mortar Guy,

Just some constructive criticisms that may come up at your thesis defence:

Are soldiers qualified to make strategic assessments-when their training deals exclusively with tactical matters?  Are these decisions not made at levels higher than the officers used to liase with the Afghan population?

What qualifies you as an expert?  How many hearts and minds have you personally won? 

How can you reconcile your argument that the Taliban does not have popular support?  Did they not have popular support prior to October 2001?  Will not the continued support from their Pashtun friends in Pakistan, including some who have powerful positions in the Pakistani Armed Forces and the ISI, ensure that their insurgency movement will remain viable? 

How can Canada do a better job than the Red Army?  After all, they were steam rolling Germans when the Allies were still lollygagging?  How is Canada's position even remarkably superior?  Concrete examples please! 

 
stegner

Rather interesting approach you have taken on this site so far.  Perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know a little more about who you are, before you start questioning longtime members of the site on their qualifications.  Right now you have absolutely no profile, no credibility, no credentials, and therefore very little in way of a position to be questioning as you are.

Please enlighten us as to who you really are.
 
stegner said:
Are soldiers qualified to make strategic assessments-when their training deals exclusively with tactical matters?  Are these decisions not made at levels higher than the officers used to liase with the Afghan population?

Fact is that it is soldiers who implement political decision and because politics are slow, soldiers have to make policy at time. We can deal with that, its our job.

What qualifies you as an expert?  How many hearts and minds have you personally won? 

What qualifies you to debate him ?

How can Canada do a better job than the Red Army?  After all, they were steam rolling Germans when the Allies were still lollygagging?  How is Canada's position even remarkably superior?  Concrete examples please! 


We arent there to do what the russians did now are we ?  You might have to go back and read history before you comment here




 
stegner said:
How can Canada do a better job than the Red Army? 

George Wallace said:
stegner

Please enlighten us as to who you really are.


Not rushing to judge, but I have a pretty good idea of his position on Afghanistan from this question alone.
 
ModlrMike said:
Not rushing to judge, but I have a pretty good idea of his position on Afghanistan from this question alone.

Personally - I don't care what his position on Afghanistan is, I like to hear all INFORMED discussion. 

I WOULD like to hear what makes stegner's position INFORMED - along the lines of the questions already asked by George Wallace and CDN Aviator.
 
As long as his IP address isn't the same as someone already banned, I say inform him!

Actually he can inform himself by reading back through the threads.
I think all of this has covered before.

If I can learn from ARMY.ca - Anyone can!  ;D

Besides, for every Stegner, I'm sure there are a dozen or so inquiring minds.

My 2 sheckels ( for what the're worth )

Stegner, As a fellow civvy I would advise you that the Army.ca crowd and the
military community at large are a pretty bright bunch.
Do not underestimate their intellect or overestimate your own.
 
stegner said:
Mortar Guy,

Just some constructive criticisms that may come up at your thesis defence:

Are soldiers qualified to make strategic assessments-when their training deals exclusively with tactical matters?  Are these decisions not made at levels higher than the officers used to liase with the Afghan population?

What qualifies you as an expert?  How many hearts and minds have you personally won? 

How can you reconcile your argument that the Taliban does not have popular support?  Did they not have popular support prior to October 2001?  Will not the continued support from their Pashtun friends in Pakistan, including some who have powerful positions in the Pakistani Armed Forces and the ISI, ensure that their insurgency movement will remain viable? 

How can Canada do a better job than the Red Army?  After all, they were steam rolling Germans when the Allies were still lollygagging?  How is Canada's position even remarkably superior?  Concrete examples please! 

stegner - Thanks for the tips and I'll make sure I use your logical, constructive approach if I ever want to seriously tube my thesis defence.

Just for fun, I am going to respond to what can only be described as your comical questions. Not for you but perhaps to benefit others who may visit this site and have similar questions. I know that sounds harsh but you started with a condescending tone so I assume that is your preferred method of communication.

By your first comment, I take it you have no knowledge of how armed forces function and your understanding of strategic policy making is limited to stereotypes (i.e. politicians make the decisions and the dim-witted soldier just does as he's told). Well, unfortunately for your stereotypes, it doesn't quite happen that way. Senior officers in the CF develop strategic policy and provide strategic advice to our government all the time. The Strategic Joint Staff, ADM (Policy) and a host of other organizations that are filled with uniformed members develop much of our policy. Granted, they don't decide on the big items as only Cabinet and Parliament do that, but they do develop, flesh out, refine and implement those policies. In fact, CF officers are damn good at strategic planning simply because we get so much training (at Staff College, for example) and exposure in our careers.

As for my personal qualifications, I am no expert but I do have unique experiences. I wasn't in Afghanistan to "liaise with the Afghan population" but rather was there to assist the Special Economic Advisor to the President (Karzai) with developing a 5-year national development strategy. My work involved meetings with senior government, military, development and IO personnel and in developing long-term plans for rebuilding Afghanistan. Not quite tactical work.

What qualifies me to speak on this topic? Like many on this site, I have dedicated my adult life (and then some) to the study of armed conflict. Do I know everything? No, and I never will. I have spoken only about my personal experiences and my area of knowledge (you should try that some time!) As for your question about how many hearts and minds I've won - watch yourself there. How about you tell us all about your tours overseas and then we'll have a contest to see who's won more hearts and minds.

Again, if you had read my original post you may have picked up on the fact that the Taliban's support comes from a small minority within the Pashtuns (Ghilzai tribe) whereas the other major tribe (Durrani) are far more supportive of the Karzai government - Karzai himself being a Durrani. Prior to October 2001 the Taliban did have some support in the South and East although most people were just relieved to see an end to the lawlessness and fighting that predated their arrival. And don't forget that they weren't popular enough to rule without considerable terror and repression. As for the Pakistanis, while it is true that a small minority support the Taliban, the Army recently launched a Corps-sized offensive in the North-West Frontier Province to take on the Taliban. With friends like that, Mullah Omar sure doesn't need any enemies!

Your last question had me laughing out loud - thanks for that! To simultaneously compare WW II to the current conflict in Afghanistan while suggesting the Red Army is qualitatively better than ours is hilarious. Just so you're aware (in case you have to defend a thesis in the future) WW II happened over 60 years ago and was a 'conventional' war. You're comparing apples to blenders. Have you ever worked with the Soviet/Russian Army? I have - I was responsible for liaison with the Russians at the airport in Kosovo and I can tell you that in every conceivable way (equipment, training, leadership, discipline, morale) our Army is far superior to theirs.

Anyway, thanks for your help. I'm sure you're not one of those people who comes to a site called Army.ca and questions serving members' experience and knowledge using only shaky facts and stereotypes, right. That would be silly, so I look forward to your more thoughtful posts in the future.

MG
 
Sorry MG I am sure you know I meant no offence.  Glad I could be of humour  :)  What is Karzai like-he seems like an interesting dude? Have you read Steve Coll's Ghost Wars?  
 
stegner - are you here for any particular purpose?

Army.ca Staff
 
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