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Electoral Reform (Senate, Commons, & Gov Gen)

What do you want to see?


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ballz said:
So, I'm confused... I thought PM Harper was appointing Senators before so he could get a majority in the Senate, in order to reform it... "playing at their own game" so to speak....

Is it really necessary, now that he has a majority in the HoC and a majority in the Senate, to appoint 7 more? Seems like a lot of extra cash being spent for no reason, by a self-proclaimed "fiscally responsible" government...

Seriously?

The NDP would do exactly the same thing given the chance.

The liberals always have anyway.

It's an opportunity to hamstring future opposing governments.

It's called politics.

If provinces elected their Senators, like Harper has asked, he'd pick from them, no matter their stripe. Maybe he's fed up asking and is intent on forcing them.
 
recceguy said:
Seriously?

The NDP would do exactly the same thing given the chance.

The liberals always have anyway.

It's an opportunity to hamstring future opposing governments.

It's called politics.

If provinces elected their Senators, like Harper has asked, he'd pick from them, no matter their stripe. Maybe he's fed up asking and is intent on forcing them.

Yes, seriously, I was asking for an analysis of what he's doing... I don't care what other parties "would do," that's not a good excuse to make the same mistake and it's not why I voted for the Tories. If I wanted what the Libs would do, I would have voted for them.

If it's all part of the political process to actually end up with Senate Reform, fine, I'd just like to have an idea of how this ties into it. I don't understand a lot of the "political games," but quite frankly I would hope it's for a better reason than the reasons the Libs were stacking the Senate before (aka, to hamstring the Tories when they are in government).

If I'm going to complain when a party I didn't vote for does it, I better complain when the party I voted for does.
 
I think the PM might be on constitutionally shaky ground were he to stop appointing senators for no good reason. The Senate is a legislative body; it does have a role; its members, the senators, are a legitimate part of our process - someone has to represent the provinces. The PM should keep the Senate "up to strength," or near there.

I do not see Stephen Harper doing anything radical, such as I have proposed many pages back. Changes to the Senate will be incremental until Prime Minister Harper is gone.
 
Although some seem to backtracking, all the new appointees have committed to an eight year term.....now if the LPC gets back into power, it would be amusing to watch how many say....who, me? uh uh....never heard of that!....it's 75 or bust!!

:nod:
 
More on the Senate, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/john-ibbitson/appointments-give-harper-upper-hand-in-senate-reform-battle/article2297093/
Appointments give Harper upper hand in Senate-reform battle

JOHN IBBITSON

Globe and Mail Update
Published Tuesday, Jan. 10, 2012

With seven new senators – all appointed by Stephen Harper last Friday and all reliably Conservative – soon to join the Other Place, we can make this out-on-a-limb prediction: The next senators from Saskatchewan and New Brunswick will be elected.

Last week’s appointments should be sufficient to overcome resistance to the Senate Reform Act from within the Prime Minister’s own Senate caucus, which means the bill will almost certainly become law, probably in the first half of next year.


It’s a long road for legislation that Mr. Harper has been pushing since he first came to power in 2006. But the end of that road is finally in sight.

The Conservatives thought they would have an easy time with Senate reform once they had their majority government. They hoped that a bill limiting senators to nine-year terms, and allowing provinces to hold senatorial elections – with the Prime Minister promising to respect the outcome of those elections – would be in place by last Christmas.

The Tories’ own ranks proved to be an emerging new threat to the legislation, however. Some of the Conservative senators started having second thoughts about giving up their jobs so quickly, arguing that they’d be forced to leave just as they began to get the hang of things. With the Liberals solidly opposed, it wasn’t clear that the government had a majority for the bill in the Red Chamber.

So the Conservatives decided to introduce Bill C-7, the Senate Reform Act, in the House instead, where it is currently awaiting a vote on Second Reading.

All the Conservative MPs who were to speak to the bill have spoken to it. But the Liberals and NDP appear determined to have every MP contribute to the debate, which is delaying the vote.

The Conservatives do not intend to impose closure on the bill. House Leader Peter Van Loan insists that time allocation was only imposed last year on bills that were crucial priorities and key elements of the Conservatives’ election platform. Besides, bringing the hammer down on something as fundamental as changing the rules of Parliament would look just awful.

Nonetheless, sometime before June the opposition is expected to run out of MPs to throw into this mini-filibuster. Once it passes second reading, the bill will go to committee, and then return to the House for third and final reading.

Perhaps that final vote will come before Christmas; perhaps it will come in Spring 2013. But it will come. Then the legislation will head to the Senate. Thanks to those seven new Tory senators, it is certain to pass there as well.

In the meantime, six senators will retire this year, four of them Conservative and two Liberal, having reached the age limit of 75.

One retiree represents Saskatchewan; the other New Brunswick. Both provinces have committed to holding elections for future senators. The word is that Mr. Harper won’t appoint senators for those two provinces, waiting instead for them to vote a nominee. So we should be welcoming elected senators from the Prairies and the Maritimes in the not-too-distant future.

The Quebec government is vowing to challenge the Senate Reform Act in court. As the Supreme Court’s December ruling on a proposed national securities regulator revealed, Tory assumptions that their agenda is judicially bullet-proof may prove to be premature.

But barring a judicial veto, as of next year, senators will have only nine-year lives, and provinces that want to can begin holding senatorial elections as vacancies crop up.

By the next election in 2015, we may already have a sense of whether the whole thing was a good idea.


I have, previously, expressed my views on how the Senate can and should be reformed without amending the Constitution ~ elect senators, on a pure proportional representation system, during provincial general elections and, maybe, enlarge the senate to give more seats to the Western provinces.

I did a quick survey of the most recent provincial general election results and this is what my Senate would look like right now, assuming all senators were elected as described:

BQ/PQ:                  8
Conservatives:    29
Liberals:              38
NDP:                  19
Other QC Parties:  4
Others:                3
Sask Party:          4
TOTAL:              105


But I had to revise my numbers because it is not clear that, for example, all BC and QC Liberals would caucus with the Liberal Party of Canada. Some, in fact, would likely choose to sit with the Conservatives, as would the Sask Party senators.

My revised standings are:

BQ/PQ:              8
Conservatives:  40
Liberals:            33
NDP:                19
Others:              5
TOTAL:            105
 
In the next while or so, it may be easier to differentiate between liberals and conservatives in BC.  Recent polls show the BC Conservatives are tied with the BC Liberals, as former BC Liberal supporters abandon the party in droves.
 
It seems the Liberals are in favour of a preferential ballot:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/01/15/pol-liberal-convention-sunday.html?cmp=rss
...

Finally, Liberals also voted 73 per cent in favour of a preferential balloting system. The motion titled states that the party "implement a preferential ballot for all future national elections."

Quebec Liberal MPs Justin Trudeau and Stephane Dion spoke in favour of it. Dion said the motion would lead to a "more civilized debate in our country."

...
It would certainly be interesting to see the results of such a system in place.  While it would correct for vote splitting within a given riding, it would not do the same at the trans-riding level.  In other words, those parties competing for the split vote would win more ridings collectively but they would still split the total ridings between eachother. The years of huge Liberal majorities while the right was split would instead have been Liberal minority governments (or Conservative/Alliance coalition governments), and the current Conservative majority would likely have been another minority.

If one believes the role of the MP is to contribute to the empire of the party, then this would be an unfavorable idea.  However, since the role of MP is to represent the riding, a preferential ballot or transferable vote would ensure the MP is more representative of the riding.

 
As a small "l" libertarian I find this article quite refreshing, as the closure of debate is quite objectionable, but the SuperPAC model is simply silly:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/01/20/andrew-coyne-a-less-comedic-balance-for-the-political-marketplace/

Andrew Coyne: A less comedic balance in the political marketplace
Andrew Coyne  Jan 20, 2012 – 7:33 PM ET | Last Updated: Jan 20, 2012 7:40 PM ET

For once, Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert have met their match. If you’ve not been following, Stewart has taken over control of Colbert’s “Super PAC” — a private, supposedly independent fundraising organization, or “political action committee” as they’re called in the States — while Colbert runs for “President of South Carolina.” The two comedians make an elaborate show of not communicating with each other, in obedience to U.S. election law, even as they are very obviously communicating with each other.

But nothing they could do could top the act being put on by Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich. Each protests loudly at the millions of dollars the other’s Super PAC has spent on advertising attacking him. Each professes not to have seen his own Super PAC’s ads, then defends their contents as true, then piously asserts that if they contain any allegations that are false they should of course be corrected — all the while insisting he has had no communication with the organization responsible.


It’s the U.S. campaign finance laws, in other words, that have become the biggest joke. Whatever restrictions the candidates and parties are under as to how they raise and spend funds, the Super PACs can raise funds in any amount from virtually any source and spend it in any way they see fit, to exactly the same purpose.

At the other extreme, there is Canada. If independent advocacy groups are, absurdly, under no restriction in the U.S., in Canada they are absurdly restricted. While the political parties were limited to spending roughly $21-million each in the last federal election campaign, so-called “third-party” groups were confined to just over $180,000 — less than one one-hundredth as much. The appearance last week of a single ad, available so far only on YouTube, criticizing the Liberal interim leader, Bob Rae, was enough to prompt demands for draconian curbs to be imposed on such expressions of political opinion, even between elections.

At which point things become not so much absurd as chilling. It’s fair to say the ad’s sponsor, the National Citizens Coalition (president emeritus: Stephen Harper), is more or less shilling for the governing Conservatives. But what if they weren’t? What if they were just a group of people who wanted to make their views known?

Still, the concern is not entirely illegitimate. We don’t have to look to the States for examples of unregulated third-party spending run amok: in Ontario, whose electoral laws are nothing like as strict, the Working Families Coalition — a front for the province’s unions, and by implication the governing Liberals — spent millions of dollars before and during the last election attacking the provincial Conservatives.

Are those the only two options, then? Either auction political office to the highest bidders, or reserve the right to speak freely on political matters to the political parties — and the media? No. There’s a third way.

The purely libertarian view, as set out by the U.S. Supreme Court in the Citizens United decision that opened the Super PAC floodgate, is that “money is speech”: to prevent people from spending money to express a view amounts to preventing them from expressing it. Up to a point, that’s a reasonable position. And to a point even our Supreme Court agrees. Hence what was previously a total ban on third-party advertising here was rolled back to the present near-total ban.

But even the U.S. Supreme Court would probably accept the legitimacy of limiting contributions to political parties, insofar as these could otherwise come to resemble bribes. So the slightly-less-libertarian position would permit limits on spending for private political advocacy, the more nearly it resembled a direct contribution to a party: ads that explicitly supported or opposed a candidate or party, for example, rather than a cause or view.

What might such a regime look like? Start from first principles. It is widely agreed that every citizen should have equal ability to influence the outcome of an election at the ballot box: one person, one vote. It follows they should have roughly equal ability to do so in the course of the campaign. In terms of the present argument, they should each be able to spend roughly the same amount on it. That suggests a system based on individual contributions — no union, corporate or government money — and individual contribution limits, much as we have now.

How each chooses to participate, however, should be up to the individual. In particular, whether he chooses to contribute to a political party, or to an advocacy group, or to spend his money directly, it should be no business of the state. Rather than have one system of contribution limits for political parties and another for advocacy groups or individuals, that suggests they should all come under the same umbrella: a global, annual ceiling, say $10,000, on the amount an individual could spend on political advocacy — through whatever vehicle. Ideally, you’d donate via the income tax return; even more ideally, anonymously.

Because it did not discriminate between types of political participation, such a system would be self-equilibrating: the more you gave to one group, the less you’d have left to give to another. Indeed, since all spending on political advocacy — again, here defined as explicitly supporting or opposing a candidate or party — would have to be financed in this way, there would be no need for further limits on campaign spending, such as we now impose. Because (back to first principles) it’s not equality between parties we want to protect, but equality between individuals.

Pure libertarians won’t like it. But this strikes me as a better way to balance freedom and fairness in the political marketplace than either country has managed to date.
 
I'm new to this forum so I haven't had time yet to read all the posts, but has anyone discussed the possibility of a mixed electoral system using our current constituency-based system and incorporating elements of proportional representation to it?

The advantages of a mixed system would be that it would be easy for the electorate to understand since they would be voting in exactly the same way, but the results would more closely match a proportional system.
 
In my opinion, there are many things wrong with mixed proportional systems.

The constituencies become much larger.  This may not seem like a problem in relatively homogenous urban areas, but when you merge 2 to 5 rural areas into one super-riding, you lose representation, especially if the super-riding is dominated by a medium sized city 3 hours away.  Rather than having an MP to represent, for example, 100,000, that MP will represent 300,000 or more.

You still have "list candidates" not voted directly by constituents, but elected via proportional representation.  In other countries, these pols may be unpopular amongst the voters, yet due to their ties to the party, they could be the first candidate on the list to be elected on proportional lists.

You also get the fringe party tail wagging the mainstream party dog.  In many countries, mainstream centre-left and centre-right parties have to form coalitions with extremist parties to form government.  This often ends up with small unpopular extremist parties getting disproportionate power in setting policy relative to their popular vote with predictable results.

Talking to people in New Zealand where they have MMP, most said they would like to go back to the old First Past the Post system.  They say government has become a gong show since they adopted that system because every special interest group now has a party and it is relatively easy to get at least one seat in Parliament.

IMHO, our system isn't perfect, but it's better than the others that have been tried.
 
In my opinion, there are many things wrong with mixed proportional systems.

The constituencies become much larger.  This may not seem like a problem in relatively homogeneous urban areas, but when you merge 2 to 5 rural areas into one super-riding, you lose representation, especially if the super-riding is dominated by a medium sized city 3 hours away.  Rather than having an MP to represent, for example, 100,000, that MP will represent 300,000 or more.

True, constituencies do become larger but it doesn't mean less representation. Under the mixed proportional system that I'm proposing, ideologically divided ridings could be represented by more than one MP (2 or 3 MPs per "divided" riding; I'll describe this system in a bit more detail below). Plus, look at our present system; sure your MP might represent only 100,000 people, but if you didn't vote for that MP does that MP really represent you and your political views. And if that MP got elected with only 40% of the vote, how well does that MP represent the majority of electors in the riding who didn't vote for him or her? Now they want to add more seats; this will only add to the number of backbenchers who really don't do much; how well do you think backbenchers represent the people in their ridings, even within their own party caucus?

You still have "list candidates" not voted directly by constituents, but elected via proportional representation.  In other countries, these pols may be unpopular amongst the voters, yet due to their ties to the party, they could be the first candidate on the list to be elected on proportional lists.

I agree with you there, lists are not the way to go, but proportional representation does not necessarily mean lists of candidates. Under the mixed system that I would propose, winning candidates would gain their seats just as is done today under our existing system, and the remainder of the seats would be filled using those candidates that did not come in first place in their ridings but who nevertheless got the most votes for their party. In other words, in a highly contested riding, two or three candidates might still end up with seats; one for winning the election in the riding, and the other(s) to make up a party's proportion of seats because they got the most votes for their party. Highly divided ridings get more representation while highly homogeneous ridings get 1 MP because they don't need more. Compared to party lists, under this system that I am proposing, people actually have a say as to whom might represent them one way or the other.

You also get the fringe party tail wagging the mainstream party dog.  In many countries, mainstream centre-left and centre-right parties have to form coalitions with extremist parties to form government.  This often ends up with small unpopular extremist parties getting disproportionate power in setting policy relative to their popular vote with predictable results.

A mixed system would still favour the more popular parties as fringe parties would sort of get the left overs. Also, the more people realize that their vote counts for something - as under a system that features proportional representation - the less likely they are to vote for fringe parties.

Talking to people in New Zealand where they have MMP, most said they would like to go back to the old First Past the Post system.  They say government has become a gong show since they adopted that system because every special interest group now has a party and it is relatively easy to get at least one seat in Parliament.

The major drawback of proportional systems has always been minority governments and in many parts of the world this means instability. But this is not true everywhere; there are some countries where minority governments are a fact of life but they are still able to make accommodations and function effectively. The most important thing is leadership; a minority government lead by an able leader can find accommodation with other parties and make government work. And this is exactly what Canadians want from their political leaders. We are an idealogically diverse nation and we want that diversity to be represented in the House of Commons, but we also want our leaders to work together to find common ground. What we don't want is one "minority" group ruling over the others for four to five years.

IMHO, our system isn't perfect, but it's better than the others that have been tried.

IMHO, our present electoral system is far from perfect, and not everything has been tried. What I'm proposing is not really a radical change, simply a change for the better.
 
OTBthinker said:
The major drawback of proportional systems has always been minority governments and in many parts of the world this means instability. But this is not true everywhere; there are some countries where minority governments are a fact of life but they are still able to make accommodations and function effectively. The most important thing is leadership; a minority government lead by an able leader can find accommodation with other parties and make government work. And this is exactly what Canadians want from their political leaders. We are an idealogically diverse nation and we want that diversity to be represented in the House of Commons, but we also want our leaders to work together to find common ground. What we don't want is one "minority" group ruling over the others for four to five years.

IMHO, our present electoral system is far from perfect, and not everything has been tried. What I'm proposing is not really a radical change, simply a change for the better.

The key advantage to our system as it stands is that under a majority government things that need to be done can be done without all the political games such as the ones being played south of the border. Sure the PM has powers not far short of a dictator for the four years they hold the office, but if they piss off enough people they get turfed at the next election. Not having the threat of an election hanging over the head of the government at all times also allows them to govern with an eye to slightly longer term goals.

 
OTBthinker said:
I'm new to this forum so I haven't had time yet to read all the posts, but has anyone discussed the possibility of a mixed electoral system ...
We've discussed a lot of things.  Multi-member constituencies, preferential ballots/transferable votes, proportional systems, constituency systems, hybrid systems, and so on, and so on, ...

Have a look:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25692/post-200633.html#msg200633

One of the concerns with a proportional system is that it makes representatives answerable to the party more so than now, and to the electorate less so than now (because under such a system it is the party that owns the seats).  It also means the end of independants sitting in the house.
 
The key advantage to our system as it stands is that under a majority government things that need to be done can be done without all the political games such as the ones being played south of the border. Sure the PM has powers not far short of a dictator for the four years they hold the office...

I agree that politicians who play political games do so at the detriment to the country. But majority governments rarely form their majorities with a majority of the votes; when such governments get things done "that need to be done," that's according to a minority of people while the majority thinks it's to the detriment of the country. Regardless of the outcomes of what these governments do, acting that way is a detriment to this country.

Sure the PM has powers not far short of a dictator for the four years they hold the office, but if they piss off enough people they get turfed at the next election. Not having the threat of an election hanging over the head of the government at all times also allows them to govern with an eye to slightly longer term goals.

Ever notice how these majority governments make all the unpopular decisions at the beginning of their mandates hoping that the electorate will forget by the time they're up for re-election, and how they play it safe and make all kinds of nice promises near the end of their mandates trying to 'buy' our votes? Whether they be Liberal or Conservative, majority governments all govern with a four to five year goal: to change the country as much as they can to the way they want and still get re-elected.
 
MCG said:
We've discussed a lot of things.  Multi-member constituencies, preferential ballots/transferable votes, proportional systems, constituency systems, hybrid systems, and so on, and so on, ...

Have a look:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25692/post-200633.html#msg200633

One of the concerns with a proportional system is that it makes representatives answerable to the party more so than now, and to the electorate less so than now (because under such a system it is the party that owns the seats).  It also means the end of independants sitting in the house.

I would agree with you that PR makes representatives answerable more to the party than the electorate under a 'list system', but that's not what I would be proposing. You can have PR where the parties owe their standing to their elected representatives that got them the votes. Also, I would say that elected representatives today, under our current system, are more answerable to their party than to their constituencies. Rarely will an MP vote against the wishes of his party though his constituency might want them to do so; when they do it's usually political suicide and there are many recent examples that prove this point. The mere existence of "party whips" proves this point. The only way around this, whether in a PR system or our FPTP system, are party leaders who trust their fellow party members and allow them to represent their constituents and/or vote according to their conscience as much as possible.

As for independents, it's already hard for them to get elected. A PR system wouldn't necessarily make it harder, especially in a mixed system.
 
The problem is that you will never have a majority of Canadians agree to much of anything beyond Winnipeg is cold, and paying taxes isn't much fun. Anything beyond that you are going to have about 32 million differing opinions.

Sometimes governments have to do things that are unpopular, look at the situation we are in with needing to make cuts to control deficit spending. If you need to fight for votes because you may have an election in two months it's hard to make the cuts that are needed to secure the long term prosperity of the country. While the cuts made may not be exactly what everybody wants, they are what's needed. Making those cuts in a minority where you need to make concessions for a party trying to gain influence and seats in the next election you may be forced by the reality of politics to do things poorly and end up hurting the country in the long run.
 
Weatherdog, you may never get "all" Canadians to agree on something, but you can certainly get a "majority" of them to agree on a course of action. Sure you'll get millions of different opinions on something, but in the end, through good leadership and enough accommodation and tolerance, a majority can certainly agree on tough decisions and the rest accept the decision. That's what democracy is all about.

Whenever we decide to go out to eat, it has never happened that my wife and I and my two kids have wanted to go to the same restaurant, but we debate it and discuss it and eventually make a decision that we can all live with. What would be inappropriate is for one member of the family to always decide and always choose what he or she wants without considering the wishes of the others or perhaps the greater good of all. Sadly, with majority governments under our present electoral system, that's exactly what we get for 4 to 5 years.
 
OTBthinker said:
Whenever we decide to go out to eat, it has never happened that my wife and I and my two kids have wanted to go to the same restaurant, but we debate it and discuss it and eventually make a decision that we can all live with. What would be inappropriate is for one member of the family to always decide and always choose what he or she wants without considering the wishes of the others or perhaps the greater good of all. Sadly, with majority governments under our present electoral system, that's exactly what we get for 4 to 5 years.

I like that analogy, but I'll take it a step farther.

Lets say the parents want to go to Smittys for a reasonably priced meal that may have some nutritional value. The teenager wants to go to the Keg for a steak and the youngest wants McDonalds. The vote happens and the parents win (they have more ridings), now the children spend the whole meal complaining that they never got what they wanted and weren't given a fair say.

All parties got the chance to cast their vote but the two children refused to vote together so they end up losing overall. Then they procede to blame the system for their failure to get their act together and work as a team to get what they wanted.

Don`t get me wrong, I don`t think our current system is perfect by any means, but at the same time I`m hesitant to agree with you that a system that more regularly gives us minority governments is the way to go.
 
One of the problems is that a Canadian political majority is so elusive as to be, effectively, extinct. The last time we had such a thing at the national level was in 1984 when Brian Mulroney earned 50.03% of the popular vote; before that it was John Diefenbaker in 1958 with 53.66% of the vote; in each case the majority wasn't so much for the Conservatives as it was a reaction to too many years of Liberal rule.

There is not, most emphatically not a majority against Stephen Harper and the Conservatives; it is dishonest to suggest that the Liberals and the NDP and Greens and the Bloc are in any meaningful way "united."

Readers who are interested can scan back several pages (I'm too lazy to do it) to find a post of mine where I analyzed recent election results and suggested that our curent first past the post system is not as unfair as most people appear to believe - yes, it does reward the most successful party and it does 'punish' the least successful ones, but, all in all, it is not grossly unfair.
 
OTBthinker said:
Sadly, with majority governments under our present electoral system, that's exactly what we get for 4 to 5 years.

That in it self is not a bad thing.  Stability over a medium term is a good thing for running government and the economy.  It also gives the voting populace at large an ability to assess policy properly rather than knee jerk changes that come with constant changes.  When one party reaches too far on the pendulum they are punished for it ( Ei: Tories in 1993, Liberals 2011)
 
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