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NavyGrunt
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The recruitng team at my current department view military members as "drunks" and are not looked upon favorably. It varies from place to place....
Do Canadians even care anymore?
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Aaron White said:
Since these fine individuals seem to have no problems judging us as a group, nor of letting their ill-founded opinions be known, perhaps you could tell us what organization they belong to, so none of us bother applying there? (If you can do so without compromising yourself, of course.) Cheers.
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NavyGrunt
Guest
Im slowly trying to change that. We have a couple of military guys- none of us are big drinkers. I know that Alberta Corrections had a team that had a similar opinion , one said it right to me......it always depends on the individuals on the recruiting team.....it doesnt appear in Canada that its not looked upon as well as in the states....
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Military experience was definitely a huge asset for me getting a civvy job. I work in the oilfield (which is unrelated, but also prizes the ability to get the job done under adverse circumstances). When I hired on in Grande Prairie, there were 16 engineers in the shop, and half of us had military experience. Talking to the other engineers who hired on at the same time, they all had difficulty during their interview explaining why their university thesis was relevant to the job, and how their university experience would help them. In my interview, the first sentence out of the guy's mouth was basically: "Yep, you've got a degree. So what did you do in military intelligence?" The rest of the interview was a breeze.
As for the "dishonest" description of the sqn commander's job, I think it's pretty accurate. If you look at a lot of resumes, you'll see some of them padded with outrageous lies: "As a squadron commander, I negotiated a cease fire between warring factions, and brought peace to the Middle East..." :blotto: pbi's description is more realistic, and any inaccuracies will come out in the interview, anyway.
As for the "dishonest" description of the sqn commander's job, I think it's pretty accurate. If you look at a lot of resumes, you'll see some of them padded with outrageous lies: "As a squadron commander, I negotiated a cease fire between warring factions, and brought peace to the Middle East..." :blotto: pbi's description is more realistic, and any inaccuracies will come out in the interview, anyway.
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When I applied to law school at York University, I knew my interview was going poorly when the first question out of their long-haired mouths was "had I ever killed anybody?"
As for ex-military having the reputation of being drunks, I can verify that this opinion permeates certain ministries in the Ontario provincial government. Sadly, from first-hand experience, I've met the cause for this opinion - as always, a few bad apples spoil it for the entire basket (in other words, a few prominent senior ex-military with drinking problems have spoiled it for many others - worse, they're doing it down at Queen's Park where the scrutiny extends into the Legislature). Ironically, their drinking problems are probably the very reason they're now EX-military.
Based on my 27 years in, the Army is certainly improving vis-a-vis drinking and over-drinking. That's all I can say (outside the Mess) without getting myself into an even deeper hole.
As for ex-military having the reputation of being drunks, I can verify that this opinion permeates certain ministries in the Ontario provincial government. Sadly, from first-hand experience, I've met the cause for this opinion - as always, a few bad apples spoil it for the entire basket (in other words, a few prominent senior ex-military with drinking problems have spoiled it for many others - worse, they're doing it down at Queen's Park where the scrutiny extends into the Legislature). Ironically, their drinking problems are probably the very reason they're now EX-military.
Based on my 27 years in, the Army is certainly improving vis-a-vis drinking and over-drinking. That's all I can say (outside the Mess) without getting myself into an even deeper hole.
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During my time in Winnipeg last year I really did not see a positive view of the CF,
My first hand experiences
- outside of Bestbuy, I saw an overweight old Warrant Officer in his Cadpats, with one boot unbloused?
- at a Riverside brewery saw an officer in OD combats with long hair just drinking at bar waiting to pick up food?
- the recruiters at my U of M were visibly overweight(except for the Medical Doctor)
- downtown I often saw overweight members walking around in Cadpat
- talking with my neighbor in Fort Garry Horse and my cousin with 2 PPCLI, they stated the lack of authority the junior ranks had (ie corporal) and the absence of training
A secound hand story told to me after the christmas break was that on a bus in southern manitoba a Arab man demanded to have the bus stopped so he could get off, when the bus driver refused the man threatened that he was Arab, and do you know what we do? The girls stated that the bus was scared, but two uniformed CF members did not confront the man and the Bus driver ended up taking care of the situation.
My point is that if I was only to see these scenarios in Winnipeg, and here these stories, that my view of the Forces would be diminished?
As a Marine Corporal, if I saw that a Marine was actually overweight or had a unsat military appearance I had the power to put him on weight control and within 6 months if the Marines condition did not meet standards I could forward the paper work for him to be seperated
Marines also are not permitted to wear Marpat (Combats) in any of the situation above
After OEF I had very high view of the CF especially the Infantry, but the public does not distinguish between Infantry and rest of the Armed Forces,,,
My first hand experiences
- outside of Bestbuy, I saw an overweight old Warrant Officer in his Cadpats, with one boot unbloused?
- at a Riverside brewery saw an officer in OD combats with long hair just drinking at bar waiting to pick up food?
- the recruiters at my U of M were visibly overweight(except for the Medical Doctor)
- downtown I often saw overweight members walking around in Cadpat
- talking with my neighbor in Fort Garry Horse and my cousin with 2 PPCLI, they stated the lack of authority the junior ranks had (ie corporal) and the absence of training
A secound hand story told to me after the christmas break was that on a bus in southern manitoba a Arab man demanded to have the bus stopped so he could get off, when the bus driver refused the man threatened that he was Arab, and do you know what we do? The girls stated that the bus was scared, but two uniformed CF members did not confront the man and the Bus driver ended up taking care of the situation.
My point is that if I was only to see these scenarios in Winnipeg, and here these stories, that my view of the Forces would be diminished?
As a Marine Corporal, if I saw that a Marine was actually overweight or had a unsat military appearance I had the power to put him on weight control and within 6 months if the Marines condition did not meet standards I could forward the paper work for him to be seperated
Marines also are not permitted to wear Marpat (Combats) in any of the situation above
After OEF I had very high view of the CF especially the Infantry, but the public does not distinguish between Infantry and rest of the Armed Forces,,,
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Actually, 2Ft, since we're talking about whether Canadians care or not, I'd have to challenge you. I'm in my third year of being posted in Winnipeg,and it is one of the most supportive communities I have seen for the military, both Air Force and Army. On a number of other threads I've related some of my positive experiences in the 'Peg, and described how reaffirming these have been for a Canadian soldier. So, I would have to say that as far as 'Peggers are concerned, the CF does create a good impression and they DO care.
Now, as for the fat, sloppy, cowardly or otherwise disgraceful bags who admittedly do crop up in our Forces (jncluding the Army) I think all of us here admit that these rats exist. There is no excuse for them, and most posters here agree with you 100% that the USMC provides a very fine example of strong esprit de corps and pride in bearing and appearance. Having spent some time at Quantico (and seeing USMC types here daily at Bagram), I wish we had the same high standards. We did once, but IMHO Unification destroyed them, little by little.
Finally, I disagree with you completely about wearing CADPAT in public. I lived through the years during which you couldn't wear combat dress off the base, and had to wear Service Dress for just about everything. Glad they're gone. A fit, proud soldier, turned out in CADPAT looks like a combat soldier and IMHO this is an image we very much need to depict, both to our public and to ourselves. Although the USMC may not permit MARPAT to be worn off base, I know that is not the practice of your Army-they wear combat dress all over the place back in the US-I've seen them.
Cheers.
Now, as for the fat, sloppy, cowardly or otherwise disgraceful bags who admittedly do crop up in our Forces (jncluding the Army) I think all of us here admit that these rats exist. There is no excuse for them, and most posters here agree with you 100% that the USMC provides a very fine example of strong esprit de corps and pride in bearing and appearance. Having spent some time at Quantico (and seeing USMC types here daily at Bagram), I wish we had the same high standards. We did once, but IMHO Unification destroyed them, little by little.
Finally, I disagree with you completely about wearing CADPAT in public. I lived through the years during which you couldn't wear combat dress off the base, and had to wear Service Dress for just about everything. Glad they're gone. A fit, proud soldier, turned out in CADPAT looks like a combat soldier and IMHO this is an image we very much need to depict, both to our public and to ourselves. Although the USMC may not permit MARPAT to be worn off base, I know that is not the practice of your Army-they wear combat dress all over the place back in the US-I've seen them.
Cheers.
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I'll weigh in with some stories of "talking to civvies" in Toronto ...
Shortly after September 11th, when we were ordered to not wear our uniforms in public, a couple on my street (average folks) approached me one day and asked me if I was still in the Army. When I answered "yes" I didn't even have the opportunity to carry on and explain why I was in civvies - the two of them pressed close, shook my hand, and explained they just wanted to say "Thank you".
Once when riding the subway a young person was playing "offensive" music very loudly, much to the dismay and consternation of a majority of riders in our car. Gradually, more and more sets of eyes turned and looked at me as if to say "aren't you going to do something about that?"
Sighing to myself (unarmed and un-armoured ...), I stepped over to the offending miscreant and very clearly but politely explained that transit regulations forbade the playing of recording devices unless the user was wearing headphones (he wasn't), and would he please turn the volume down to a reasonable level.
Well, this young fellow must have been "English-challenged" (no - actually he wasn't - I'm being sarcastic) because his response was to crank up the volume another couple of notches. Did I hear "big mistake" from the audience? Yup. Unimpressed myself, I simply reached over with my ashplant and switched off his boom box. He tried to turn it on again, but this time I stepped closer and turned it off (resisting the temptation to turn if off permanently ... sigh ...).
The crowning glory came at the next stop, when this punk exited the car. When the doors closed, he started doing some weird-assed dance that he probably imagined was some sort of martial art (intended to send the message that he'd have gladly engaged me in some off-ice dance ...). All of a sudden, almost as if the train conductor was watching ... the doors suddenly opened again! Unable to resist this opportunity to avail myself of some fresh air, I stepped outside in the direction of this young urban hero.
Well, he couldn't pick up his ghetto blaster fast enough and hightail it to the exit ...
The subway car burst into laughter, and the taxpayers apparently felt their tax dollars were well spent on this occasion.
Okay - enough yarn-telling (although I hope some of you were entertained).
Here are the serious points I'd like to make:
First of all, we understand that "animals sense fear".
Also, we preach that "respect is earned".
Thus, in the context of whether or not the Canadian populace cares about us any more, we must constantly remind ourselves to NOT become disgusted with the ignorance of the civilians - otherwise, they'll sense it ... and the romance will go downhill from there ...
Coming at it from another direction - we don't curse at a one or two-year old child for doing something by accident, because they simply didn't know any better. Instead, we demonstrate patience and educate them in order to avoid a reoccurrence (and work out our frustrations at the hockey rink or at the gym ... chuckle).
When you're in public, you ARE the Canadian Army to those civilians who "don't know any better".
If you deserve their respect, they'll give it to you - that's a fact, not just a promise
(remember what we always say? Repect is earned ...).
So, do Canadians even care anymore? Do they still respect us?
Deserve their respect and care, and you'll earn it.
(By the way - we wear our CADPAT in public for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is an overr teminder to external/uneducated observers that we're soldiers, with the subliminal message that the ultimate duty of a soldier is to go into situations where survival depends upon camouflage ...).
Okay - enough ranting from me - I couldn't sleep, so I'm taking it out on the rest of you ... (ha!)
Shortly after September 11th, when we were ordered to not wear our uniforms in public, a couple on my street (average folks) approached me one day and asked me if I was still in the Army. When I answered "yes" I didn't even have the opportunity to carry on and explain why I was in civvies - the two of them pressed close, shook my hand, and explained they just wanted to say "Thank you".
Once when riding the subway a young person was playing "offensive" music very loudly, much to the dismay and consternation of a majority of riders in our car. Gradually, more and more sets of eyes turned and looked at me as if to say "aren't you going to do something about that?"
Sighing to myself (unarmed and un-armoured ...), I stepped over to the offending miscreant and very clearly but politely explained that transit regulations forbade the playing of recording devices unless the user was wearing headphones (he wasn't), and would he please turn the volume down to a reasonable level.
Well, this young fellow must have been "English-challenged" (no - actually he wasn't - I'm being sarcastic) because his response was to crank up the volume another couple of notches. Did I hear "big mistake" from the audience? Yup. Unimpressed myself, I simply reached over with my ashplant and switched off his boom box. He tried to turn it on again, but this time I stepped closer and turned it off (resisting the temptation to turn if off permanently ... sigh ...).
The crowning glory came at the next stop, when this punk exited the car. When the doors closed, he started doing some weird-assed dance that he probably imagined was some sort of martial art (intended to send the message that he'd have gladly engaged me in some off-ice dance ...). All of a sudden, almost as if the train conductor was watching ... the doors suddenly opened again! Unable to resist this opportunity to avail myself of some fresh air, I stepped outside in the direction of this young urban hero.
Well, he couldn't pick up his ghetto blaster fast enough and hightail it to the exit ...
The subway car burst into laughter, and the taxpayers apparently felt their tax dollars were well spent on this occasion.
Okay - enough yarn-telling (although I hope some of you were entertained).
Here are the serious points I'd like to make:
First of all, we understand that "animals sense fear".
Also, we preach that "respect is earned".
Thus, in the context of whether or not the Canadian populace cares about us any more, we must constantly remind ourselves to NOT become disgusted with the ignorance of the civilians - otherwise, they'll sense it ... and the romance will go downhill from there ...
Coming at it from another direction - we don't curse at a one or two-year old child for doing something by accident, because they simply didn't know any better. Instead, we demonstrate patience and educate them in order to avoid a reoccurrence (and work out our frustrations at the hockey rink or at the gym ... chuckle).
When you're in public, you ARE the Canadian Army to those civilians who "don't know any better".
If you deserve their respect, they'll give it to you - that's a fact, not just a promise
(remember what we always say? Repect is earned ...).
So, do Canadians even care anymore? Do they still respect us?
Deserve their respect and care, and you'll earn it.
(By the way - we wear our CADPAT in public for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is an overr teminder to external/uneducated observers that we're soldiers, with the subliminal message that the ultimate duty of a soldier is to go into situations where survival depends upon camouflage ...).
Okay - enough ranting from me - I couldn't sleep, so I'm taking it out on the rest of you ... (ha!)
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Good post bossi.
It kind of parallels another thought I have been thinking of late. Are we in danger of becoming like the dog that has been kicked to often? Incapable of recognizing when a friendly hand is offered, biting it and requiring being "put down" (Ok so I don't mean being lined up against the wall or all being fired...)
I get a sense from a lot of posts that most folks on this site want change. They would like to see change soon. The only trouble is nobody can agree on what that change should be and nobody TRUSTs anybody that can implement that change in case the end result isn't, or doesn't appear to be, the same as that which they envisage.
Who to trust? The civilians that ignored us and occasionally scorned us? The politicians that followed their lead? They Liberals that starved us? The bureaucrats that got fat on us? NDHQ that failed to protect us and get us the tools that we needed? Field grade officers that were looking for promotion? The Senior NCOs that were waiting for retirement? The REMFs that only wanted to learn a trade? The newbies that don't take their training seriously?
Short answer is ALL OF THEM have to be trusted. Or should I say that every individual in the system has to be given the opportunity to demonstrate that they can be trusted, no matter how they or their predecessor acted previously. Because there are no alternatives - you can't distrust everybody. And if you do end up biting every hand that tries to feed you and demonstrate that you can't be reached, and are uncommunicative and uncooperative.....maybe you do end up like that dog.
It kind of parallels another thought I have been thinking of late. Are we in danger of becoming like the dog that has been kicked to often? Incapable of recognizing when a friendly hand is offered, biting it and requiring being "put down" (Ok so I don't mean being lined up against the wall or all being fired...)
I get a sense from a lot of posts that most folks on this site want change. They would like to see change soon. The only trouble is nobody can agree on what that change should be and nobody TRUSTs anybody that can implement that change in case the end result isn't, or doesn't appear to be, the same as that which they envisage.
Who to trust? The civilians that ignored us and occasionally scorned us? The politicians that followed their lead? They Liberals that starved us? The bureaucrats that got fat on us? NDHQ that failed to protect us and get us the tools that we needed? Field grade officers that were looking for promotion? The Senior NCOs that were waiting for retirement? The REMFs that only wanted to learn a trade? The newbies that don't take their training seriously?
Short answer is ALL OF THEM have to be trusted. Or should I say that every individual in the system has to be given the opportunity to demonstrate that they can be trusted, no matter how they or their predecessor acted previously. Because there are no alternatives - you can't distrust everybody. And if you do end up biting every hand that tries to feed you and demonstrate that you can't be reached, and are uncommunicative and uncooperative.....maybe you do end up like that dog.
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pbi, our two differences in the way the public view the CF probably stem from our different social groups, (mine was the U of M) and from that I do not think the public understands the capabilities of a modern military, when I was high school in Manitoba when we did a section of the class about the military we didn't study the PPCLI, Royal Winnipeg Rifles or even the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, we studied the US Marines, because of the perception the Marines put forth that they were the best,
It is my view two of the easiest ways you could improve the publics perception of the CF is that you enforce strict height / weight standards, and you have high standards of dress and deportment,
With such a small Army, and with proper direction, I think the Canadian Army has the potential to be trained to standards above that of the US Marines, probably at par with the Royal Marines.
It is my view two of the easiest ways you could improve the publics perception of the CF is that you enforce strict height / weight standards, and you have high standards of dress and deportment,
With such a small Army, and with proper direction, I think the Canadian Army has the potential to be trained to standards above that of the US Marines, probably at par with the Royal Marines.
I will vote liberal next year for one reason. They have kept canada leaning into U.S. arms. Its was diefenbaker's conservative goverment that cut the avrow arrow. It is again the conservatives supporting a missile shield around U.S., which is a waste of money. You have to understand, this country has a 512 billion dollar deficit. The liberals are trying the get this paid off. I dislike america and its foreign policy, i dislike steven harpers anti monarchy stance and i dislike the modern conservatives. I would like to see this country fully independant, not a puppet of the puppet master of the world. Now i dislike Martin, i found chretian did play tough with the yanks a few times. He did cut many cival servant staff and the military took a beating under him, but under him, canada went into a economic boom.
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I problem 2FtOnion is that many in the CF view it as a 9-5 job.
Scratch_043
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does anyone here even know what the US debt is?
Answer: a heck of a lot more than they can dismiss easily, and their economy will begin to suffer because of it, do we really want to go towards the same thing they are??
Answer: a heck of a lot more than they can dismiss easily, and their economy will begin to suffer because of it, do we really want to go towards the same thing they are??
Scratch_043
Sr. Member
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Update,
To see the US national debt, check out http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
To see the US national debt, check out http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
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2FtOnion said:
2Ft Onion: I agree with you that the Canadian public probably doesn't understand the capabilities of their military, but that really isn't the point and I don't think it has a huge bearing on their respect for us. The public don't really understand the capabilities of their fire department either, but they still resect them. I understand that your class learned nothing about the Canadian Army, but I can assure you other students do (including Manitoba...).
I agree 100% with you that we have far too many sloppy, baggish looking people who destroy the image of the Army in particular and the CF in general (I have seen a disproportionate number of these people at NDHQ) We do not deal well with them (we lost the court fight over BMI standards a while back) but I think that more demanding PT standards, tested more often, would clean out a few of them. Cheers.
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pbi said:
The BMI thing was badly implemented from the start. We all have stories of colleagues who pegged out over 30 BMI, despite being body-builders and not fitting the "profile."
Yes, image has some importance, but should it be the the most important? I know guys who don't cut a fine figure in CADPAT, yet they pass BFT, and they have brains which are of great use to the CF of today. There are other issues, but I'll leave off for now.
Acorn
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I agree about BMI: it was born to die young. Unfortunately, the BFT is a lowest common denominator PT test: I can assure you that anybody who is in any shape at all can throw on the ruck and stumble through it once a year. Sharp appearance is, IMHO an important part of military culture: we need to re-instill this in folks. Unfortunately, as you point out, we have confronted ourselves with a dilemma of our own making by allowing otherwise competent people to neglect their fitness and their military bearing. Cheers.
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pbi,
I think you're wrong. The BFT is not something anyone (in somewhat shape) can pass. It does take some build up requirements, six weeks I believe. Yet, and I'm ranting here, Pl Comds will take you on a 10km run without a second thought or any build up. Studies show that marching is more effective in developing physical (strength, and cardio) than running. Yet we preach running as gospel... why sir?
I think you're wrong. The BFT is not something anyone (in somewhat shape) can pass. It does take some build up requirements, six weeks I believe. Yet, and I'm ranting here, Pl Comds will take you on a 10km run without a second thought or any build up. Studies show that marching is more effective in developing physical (strength, and cardio) than running. Yet we preach running as gospel... why sir?
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what build up???
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Buildup of six weeks for a 13 KM jaunt?
I'll accept a buildup for the RM "30-miler", but the minimum requirements of the BFT march are not that demanding. Considering it is usually done in non-tactical conditions, on a road, etc, etc. I remember some NCO's arguing to our combat-proven Officer on workup about how he was throwing us into route marches; the Officer in question responded by saying that "If the Romans could march across the Empire with marching order in sandels, you can be damn sure we'll be marching out to the ranges in the morning!" And march we did, and we were better for it in that we winnowed the wheat from the chaff.
As for running vs marching. I'd like to see the studies you mentioned out of interest. As well, it is important to think of different forms of running. Going to the track for 100m sprints is going to offer a vastly different exercise then jogging the loop around the golf course in formation. I think that any commander who simply takes his troops on the same running route every day for PT, 5 days a week, is just being unoriginal and should put some more thought into developing a training schedule.
Personally, I think a mix of calithetics/weight training, sprinting, running, rucking, and team sports should be used over a month for training. Helps to keep PT interesting and gives troops well rounded approach to exercise and fitness.
I'll accept a buildup for the RM "30-miler", but the minimum requirements of the BFT march are not that demanding. Considering it is usually done in non-tactical conditions, on a road, etc, etc. I remember some NCO's arguing to our combat-proven Officer on workup about how he was throwing us into route marches; the Officer in question responded by saying that "If the Romans could march across the Empire with marching order in sandels, you can be damn sure we'll be marching out to the ranges in the morning!" And march we did, and we were better for it in that we winnowed the wheat from the chaff.
As for running vs marching. I'd like to see the studies you mentioned out of interest. As well, it is important to think of different forms of running. Going to the track for 100m sprints is going to offer a vastly different exercise then jogging the loop around the golf course in formation. I think that any commander who simply takes his troops on the same running route every day for PT, 5 days a week, is just being unoriginal and should put some more thought into developing a training schedule.
Personally, I think a mix of calithetics/weight training, sprinting, running, rucking, and team sports should be used over a month for training. Helps to keep PT interesting and gives troops well rounded approach to exercise and fitness.
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