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DND to refit some Sea Kings as troop carriers

For the specifics you would need a griffion driver.  But from what I understand they don't have the poser to lift or Climb in the atmospher there and that hot dry air does not allow them gain any/enough lift to be useful to carry anything.

The only planes operating are the Hercs from what I get.  No fighters or Helicopters from Canadians (unless you count the CH-47 we sold to the Dutch) in theater.

 
Wizard of OZ said:
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-ch124troopcarrier.htm

This link shows that they are getting 5 ready to go some time in Nov/Dec of 2006.  These 5 will not be going to Afghanistan but will be sent to the Standing Contingency Task Force, They are not capable of operation in the stan.  I remember this idea was killed by the CDS last year.  Hope this makes things a little clearer.

We will soon have 5 Sea King Medium lift Troop Carriers.

Wiz:  beware taking CASR as gospel.  They've floated a lot of pure speculation in the past...  SCTF is not active, but is only a concept right now - and is due for an experimental trial later this year.  It is entirely possible that we'll use the SK as a pseudo-troop lifter in the absence of an available dedicated airframe to test the concept - but I'd be speculating myself...  ;)

As for Griffons, straying out of my lane:  with door guns and armour, they can't carry much of a useful load in any theatre, let alone much in a hot/high environment with fully-laden troops.  I'm sure that the Tac Hel guys here could enlighten us further.
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
Wiz:  beware taking CASR as gospel.  They've floated a lot of pure speculation in the past...  SCTF is not active, but is only a concept right now - and is due for an experimental trial later this year.  It is entirely possible that we'll use the SK as a pseudo-troop lifter in the absence of an available dedicated airframe to test the concept - but I'd be speculating myself...  ;)

As for Griffons, straying out of my lane:  with door guns and armour, they can't carry much of a useful load in any theatre, let alone much in a hot/high environment with fully-laden troops.  I'm sure that the Tac Hel guys here could enlighten us further.

But they are great for taking Generals to meetings in Kingston, Petawawa, Borden, Trenton, Valcartier...well you get my drift.....
 
Wizard of OZ said:
The only planes operating are the Hercs from what I get.

Yes, and they are getting pretty long in the tooth as well.... Especially when you use a tactical aircraft strategically for as long as we have.... Makes about as much sence as using a converted Navy airframe for troop hauling.

I've been kicked out of Hercs that broke down more times than i've actually lifted off lately. I remember the Aussie's in xxxxxxxx laughing at us getting on and off a Herc no less than 3 times before it finally passed the post start-up check.

Not trying to turn this into a flame war, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that the Airforce (I mean the portion of it that actually has a role in powered flight) has provided me some of the biggest operational dissapointments and a few rediculous unplanned adventures. Nothing like promising the troops a helo extraction only to end up having a Heli-Deuce come rumbling down the road :)

All this being said, I must admit that 427 is doing a pretty decent job. Probably has allot to do with who they are tasked to support these days.

Oh well....
 
misfit said:
Why can't the CF use Griffons in Afghanistan for troop transport? Too small? Are there any CF aircraft operating over there?

Politics, politics and politics. 

Putting Griffon in now would (unjustifiably IMO, but never underestimate either a) how nasty politics can be, or b) ignorance in believing that dissimilar capabilities somehow compete against each other [heavy lift/light utility] ) erode the CDS' position on procuring "big honking helicopters". 

Sadly, Griffon absolutely has a use in Afghanistan today and a capability to do what many there want of it.  On the Chief's last visit to our unit before I redeployed, I told him I'd come back in a heartbeat to fly Griffon for the operators while we waited for BHH's.  He ack'd that and affirmed that he'd sign my 12-month waiver personally if that came to pass.  Unfortunately, I don't think it will...for a while anyway, until a contract for heavy rotary lift is signed. 

I will likely be back in AFG in a Chinook before I come back to support operators with a Griffon.

Cheers,
Duey
 
So its not a question of operational effectiveness? Would a Griffon be able to operate in some of the high altitude areas of AFG? Would it be able to withstand enemy fire...and respond with force?

Sorry if this strays too far from the original topic about Sea Kings.
 
misfit said:
So its not a question of operational effectiveness? Would a Griffon be able to operate in some of the high altitude areas of AFG? Would it be able to withstand enemy fire...and respond with force?

Sorry if this strays too far from the original topic about Sea Kings.

At the hotter parts of the day, there would be reduced takeoff weight/paylod, but it has one of the most advanced EW defensive systems going (few helos have multi-band laser detection), and the MAG58 door gun (a.k.a. C6 to us, M240B to US, etc...) is the preferred door gun of choice in AFG...very accurate and high rate of fire.  I'd fly it tomorrow in AFG WITHOUT ANY reservations!

Cheers,
Duey
 
They are dragging the issue out again...


Aging choppers headed to Kandahar?
MURRAY BREWSTER Canadian Press
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061025.wseaking1025/BNStory/National/home

Ottawa — Five of the navy's geriatric Sea Kings trained last month with soldiers about to deploy to Afghanistan, raising questions about whether the troublesome helicopters are eventually bound for war-torn Kandahar.

The Canadian army is desperately short of helicopter support and military planners have scoured the globe, hoping to lease choppers for the army's increasingly dangerous mission in Afghanistan.

They've come up empty-handed.

The Boeing Corp. — makers of the Chinook heavy-lift helicopter — and Pentagon staff told Canadian officials last month in Washington that no military choppers are available for lease, say defence industry sources.

The refusal is a blow to Canadian war planners hoping to get soldiers off the dangerous explosive-sewn highways around Kandahar and into the relative safety of helicopters.

The Seattle, Wash.-based aerospace giant said it's not in the business of renting aircraft and the U.S. Army, bogged down with the war in Iraq, has “no spare capacity,” said the source, who asked not to be identified.

A proposal to use modified Sea Kings in Afghanistan has been kicking around military circles, but for the moment the air force says it has no immediate plans to let them join the fight.

“We're not sending Sea Kings to Afghanistan,” said Lieut. Adam Thomson, a military spokesman.

“What's going to be decided in the future, I can't speculate on right now.”
More on link
 
Another hair brained idea that has been logically quashed.  The thing about Sea King in Afghanistan is that Canada is not a country which is allowed to use weapons of mass destruction.  ;D  One could easily consider a Sea King as such a weapon because many of the airframes have more than one crash on them already.
 
The sea kings have been flying in formation at tree top level for the last few days out here in Gagetown. They never fly like that out here maybe the pilot training has already started.
 
Canada has some of the best soldiers in the world, I just wish we'd buy them some damn equiptment. Seriously, this is is just getting embarrassing. You know it's bad when the Air Force's web site is bragging about having the oldest Hercs in any military, because it shows how good the maintenace crews are or something.

Funny that the NDP complains about not spending enough on the military. Guess when your out of power for so long you can really say whatever you want.
 
What it points to is years of inaction by both previous Conservative governments and Liberal governments to insure our military personnel have adequate and safe equipment," she said.

The NDP are a little short in the memory dept...The conservatives tried to buy new helos for the navy, only to have the Fiberals quash the contract and put thousands of Canadians out of work in the process, while spending more money to cancell then would have been spent had the aircraft been delivered. :argument:

F&*^%$G clowns, the lot of them  :clown:
 
Sea Kings are NOT going to Afghanistan.  Full stop.  The laws of physics and aerodynamics prohibit it (and not even the CDS himself can repeal those laws).

The media is making a leap of logic here.  Sea Kings in Gagetown?  Yes.

Three letters- S.C.F.

TAsop_999- I strongly suggest that you stop posting on an issue which you so patently know nothing about.

Out.



 
As I understand it then, Canadian Sea Kings cannot deploy to Afgan, Canadian 412's cannot deploy to Afgan.

Our allies, have and or are using, single hueys, twin hueys, 412's and Sea Kings in Afgan. So what gives.
I am curious to know the laws of physics, and aerodynamics that would limit the deployment of any Helo we own to deploy to Afgan.

Of course this is saying that most of the mission kit would be removed and the Helos were stripped down to a basic config. Then they could be used as possible, recce, QRF, medivac and maybe a few other missions.

Some laughed a year or two ago when it was mentioned that the CP140 was being re rolled to ground observation on land as opposed to it's original role of Maritime Patrol. Some will laugh even more when they talk about maybe mounting a bomb or two on the CP140. This has all been brought out in the open and is being very closely watched by our Allies as it will renew their own fleets usage.

Laugh and point, re role, re arm and re equip what we have now for the near future to fit what missions we have at hand.
All of our kit at present can and would work well in our missions at hand. The ability of the system to allow it is a whole different story, be it mandate, roles, equipment shortages or other factors.

I don't know the All's of deployments in the future nor do I care to fully speculate on them for what i do know. I also do not claim to be an expert on any one of these subjects. I have and will continue to look at the facts of ability and what is already deployed and what can conceivably be in the near future by our Allies and our selves.

I am not trying to be smart here, just curious and want to discuss this and other issues.
Anything I have said is not meant to offend any person. Nor does it state any scope with in the CF or abilities. This is just a good open discussion. 


 
CTD-

Who Precisely is using Sea Kings in Afghanistan, right now?

I am curious to know the laws of physics, and aerodynamics that would limit the deployment of any Helo we own to deploy to Afgan.

Look up the term "density altitude".  There are other issues inherent to the basic design of the Sea King, but they get close to OPSEC and they cannot be overcome with technology (to my knowledge), no matter how much money you chuck at the problem. It was designed to be a naval helicopter run at Sea Level, not a mountain flier at 10,000 feet. Enough said.

Of course this is saying that most of the mission kit would be removed and the Helos were stripped down to a basic config. Then they could be used as possible, recce, QRF, medivac and maybe a few other missions

Look dude, aircraft modification and maintenance in the CF is not an episode of "monster garage". You make it sound like a weekend project. It is not. You don't bring an airplane in and "strip it down" and send it on ops.  Like it or not (and I don't always like all of it), 43 year old aircraft are complex, cranky beasts that don't respond well to being "torn" apart.  Not to mention the test/eval/airworthiness paperwork...

I don't know the All's of deployments in the future nor do I care to fully speculate on them for what i do know. I also do not claim to be an expert on any one of these subjects. I have and will continue to look at the facts of ability and what is already deployed and what can conceivably be in the near future by our Allies and our selves.

You are not an expert.  I have 1100 hrs on the Sea King, which barely gets me comfortable with it's caps and lims.  Please, take it from me- It cannot be done, for a lot of really, really excellent reasons, no matter how some might wish it so.

Cheers.
 
It should be interesting to see how it will work out.  Mind you the Air Det is telling me the birds assigned to the ex are not real dependable.  I hope it works out as I like to be kept busy while at sea.  I have been teasing the AESOPs that they are going to be regulated into acting as stews for the troops as they won't be hunting subs.
 
Just throwing this out there because it came to mind...but the SeaKings at Gagetown, could it be that they have been getting used by the CSOR. I have heard that they will be doing many exercises/operations off of ships to the shore. The new ships the Navy will soon be aquiring will also be used for operations by land forces. So could it just simply be training by the CSOR using SeaKings as the shipboard HELO?

I didnt word this the best way, but hopefully it makes enought sense for people to understand what I am trying to say.
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/15/nmod15.xml

MoD cost cuts 'will put troops in peril'
By Thomas Harding and Graeme Wilson
(Filed: 15/05/2006)

The lives of troops will be put at risk if the Ministry of Defence goes ahead with plans to refurbish a fleet of vintage helicopters as a cost-cutting measure, defence sources said yesterday.

Servicemen, already concerned after the shooting down of a Lynx in Basra last week, said that if 30 Sea King helicopters were taken out of mothballs their low speed and poor performance in the desert heat would make them "sitting ducks".

A shortfall in the number of troop transport helicopters has led to defence chiefs proposing to bring former Royal Navy anti-submarine Sea Kings out of storage for use in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The move has prompted a military engineer working on the helicopter programme to condemn the cost-cutting measure that would "severely endanger the lives of my colleagues".

"Why is it that the MoD insists on putting costs of equipment above its duty of care to the service personnel they ought to be providing the best kit to?" the source said.

"Compounding the catastrophe is that its maximum speed at its maximum height is a mere 50 knots - in other words they will be sitting ducks." He added that the "hot and high" performance of the Sea King was "woeful".

While the Sea Kings are generally regarded as robust by troops, their age and poor hot weather performance have led to several being grounded in Iraq.

Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, who has previously criticised the lack of troop transport being sent to Afghanistan for the three-year deployment, said: "This could seriously impact upon the ability of British forces to operate in such a hostile environment where travelling by road is so dangerous.

"It would be very worrying if following recent events in Iraq we were to put helicopters back into service that could pose a threat to the safety of our troops."

Concern over the military's plans comes amid repeated warnings by commanders that the 3,300 British troops deploying to southern Afghanistan face a torrid time at the hands of Taliban insurgents.

The troops, who are providing security for a reconstruction programme in volatile Helmand province, face the constant threat of attack and have already been the target of a suicide bombing, in which two soldiers were injured.

Powerful warlords, heavily-armed drug traffickers and the resurgent forces of the deposed Taliban regime, with weapons including rockets at their disposal, all have the British forces in their sights.

Taliban and al-Qa'eda propagandists are attempting to bolster their ranks with a recruitment campaign in Pakistan for "martyrs" prepared to kill British soldiers across the Afghan border.

The Conservatives see the proposals as the latest evidence of the financial squeeze on the armed forces under Labour.

The defence budget has fallen from £34.6 billion in 1999-2000 to £31 billion in 2004-05 in real terms, putting pressure on the armed forces at a time when senior officers are issuing warnings about overstretch.

The Army's current strength is 101,000, about 10,000 less than when Labour came to power.

The situation is even worse in the Navy, where the number of sailors has fallen from 46,000 to less than 36,000, while the RAF has seen personnel numbers drop from 57,000 to 48,000.

Next month the MoD will decide whether to use the redundant Sea Kings, which are stored in Fleetwood, Hants, or to extend the service life of the RAF's 38 Pumas, which should be retired in four years.

Even if the ageing Sea Kings are refurbished at £10 million each, they will only be able to carry about five troops each with extra weight added by the crews' body armour, new radios, machine guns and anti-missile devices.

Almost a quarter of Britain's Joint Helicopter Command is either unusable or under repair, leaving commanders in Afghanistan dependent on the huge US helicopter fleet.

Tim Ripley, an aviation analyst at Jane's Defence Weekly, said: "They are wheeling out planes to extend their shelf life because there is not enough money for new helicopters until 2015."

The MoD said it had no plans "at the moment" to send any Sea Kings to Afghanistan. "We are currently looking at a number of options and no decision has been made yet," a MoD spokesman said.

He added that £4.5 billion had been set aside for the next decade to develop the "future rotorcraft capability programme".

It has also been revealed that the Army's Apache fleet will not be going to Afghanistan fitted with its special £15 million radar, a move which will allow the aircraft to carry more fuel.

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.6281


 
My mistake, I thought the RMC's had them over there, but I guess not, their using Chinooks and contract Helo's. Again I thought I remembered seeing a photo of them flying in or around Kabul/ Kandhar, but I guess not.




 
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