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DND may be shopping for new subs, sources say

T.S.Rea said:
'Frigate' (defined):
2. any of various types of modern naval vessels ranging in size from a destroyer escort to a cruiser, frequently armed with guided missiles and used for aircraft carrier escort duty, shore bombardment, and miscellaneous combat functions. 

3.A warship, usually of 4,000 to 9,000 displacement tons, that is larger than a destroyer and smaller than a cruiser, used primarily for escort duty.

8. a United States warship larger than a destroyer and smaller than a cruiser 

None of these squares with my sense of what a frigate is, and has been since WWII (except that the tonnage range in 3. isn't too far off, when one considers the size of a CPF).  Agreed that the definition of any warship type is a matter for each navy to decide, but by and large a frigate is usually the next size down from a destroyer.  I'd suggest that anything big enough to carry eight (manned) aircraft is outside of the frigate range in any navy.
 
At first glance, these big hulls might lead one to assume that the ships would be hideously expensive, but the actual hull itself is only one cost component of the whole package.  The ten frigates would share a common hull with 3-4 auxilliaries (although the AOR's are probable too far along for this), and would form the backbone of the fleet.  The navy acquired a sealift ship recently, one more might be useful, but apart from looking at the capacity for offloading without port facilities, these would be commercial grade vessels.  
No.  In fact, you cannot effectively share a common hull design between platforms of radically different employment.  Frigate and destroyer hull designs are optimized for speed.  AOR/JSS hulls are optimized for volume.  I would not enjoy sailing on a frigate where the hull was based on that of an AOR.  Conversely, an AOR built on a frigate hull would be a waste of money, as you could not carry enough payload to be useful to the fleet- in effect, it would be a "self-licking ice cream cone".  I dimly remember a thread that exists on this very subject that is maybe a year or two old where some very knowledgeable Mar Eng types weighed in.

While I agree with your earlier post that the terms frigate and destroyer aren't terribly descriptive anymore,  I think that it can be widely agreed that any vessel displacing 20,000-25,000 tonnes is well beyond the frigate class.  If you think this is semantics, it is not for two or three reasons.  Firstly, the price of a warship is pretty much directly related to it's size.  All things being equal, 10 ships of his size would bankrupt Canada.  Secondly, the dockyards on both coasts would have to be gutted and rebuilt to accommodate and maintain ships of such massive size.  Finally, in Canada, what you call a warship matters a great deal.  The Frigate program of the 1980s-90s was called that for a reason.  Even though City Class frigates of around 6000 tonnes replaced older destroyers of 3500 tonnes, the name frigate had to be used to get it by Cabinet- Destroyer was thought to be too aggressive.  There is no way, even in this relatively defence friendly climate, that you would sell a 250,000 tonne naval building program to Cabinet.

Finally, another comment on your submarine proposal.  Your manning figures are wildly low, IMHO.  A crew of 14-25 is not really feasible for anything more than a few days.  Using even a figure of 25 on a really highly automated submarine, one watch would look something like this (apologies to the submariners in advance- I'm going to get the terms wrong) :

1 Officer of the watch
1 quartermaster
1 helmsman
1 signalman
3 sensor operators
3 Mar Engineers
2 Combat System Engineers
12 per watch

You need a minimum of 2 watches for 24.  Add the Captain for 25.  You still need someone to cook.   The torpedoes and decoys won't load themselves.  The boat won't clean itself.  Ideally, if your operators are one-in-two, your engineers are one-in-three watch rotation, because their is always stuff to fix (unless you intend to go home every time something breaks).  Three officers is really inadequate to run the boat and also deal with all of the message traffic and other stuff that happens day to day, so really 4 would be better.  We haven't even considered damage control or what happens if someone gets sick/injured and cannot stand watch.

Really, I think the minimum crew would have to be in the 30-40 range.  Even then, sleep would be at a premium, even during peacetime sailing.


 
If you could find the earlier post concerning the engineering issues related to AOR/frigate hull design, I would appreciate it.

Their obviously would be major differences in the internal form of an auxilliary versus a combatant vessel, since the former would carry larger liquid and bulk loads and have a much greater range between light and deep load conditions, different metacentric heights and other balance and buoyancy figures as just a start of a long list of functional differences.  It might have been more prudent to state a common machinery plant and a host of ship service equipment shared in common with both vessels, but their would be obvious differences between the two.  The AOR program is probably too far along that it would matter regardless.  Nonetheless, the latter would have a substantial fuel load in order to gain some independence from auxilliary support, and although it is not always appropriate to make direct comparisons with unrelated ships from different eras built with different sets of requirements, the reasoning follows something similar to the American Sangemon class CVE oiler conversions or any of a number of warships designed with very long range endurance.  A margin of that fuel load would in fact be counterbalanced with floodable spaces so that the vessel trim and effective draught could be adjusted as the ship is underway, as well as providing a substantial damage control capacity with the ability to pump large quantities of liquid from one space to another.  Deep load condition would in practice be the tonnage of a frigate departing for a global deployment and still thousands of miles away from the operational area.

The price of steel has been going up for the last few years, but it still does not constitute a large part of the end cost.  Actually, a lot of the hull cost is driven by the degree to which the steel is processed into its end form for integration into the hull, but the form I had in made would be constructed with a lot of flat sections and two dimensional curvatures which would simply the manufacturing process and offer the potential of some stealthiness by virtue of its oblique faceted shape above the waterline.  These construction techniques have been employed by some shipyards in Europe and elsewhere to successfully reduce production costs.

The term frigate has been used owing to the general similarity of the purpose of frigates of the sailing era as the lead projection force of the fleet more than to the modern one of an ocean escort and surface strike unit.  I am not speaking of fast vessels with a high level of maneouverability, but ships with a lot of stamina that can get to distant sea areas quickly with the endurance to conduct operations once there.  The interception of merchant and other types of vessels, one type of the operation the Halifax's have engaged in in recent years, would be conducted by corvettes (a limited number of which would be armed) under the protection and support of the frigates.  A more closer comparison would be to the San Antonio class LPD with a number of shifts in capabilities that reflect a different set of intended priorities.

The price tag of one of these ships is about 700-1000 million, and although in terms of building such ships in Canada there would be a completely different set of cost factors, they would apply to any type of naval ship built in Canada.  Characteristics they would share in common would be a 16 cell Mk41 VLS (with space left for more if required later), two RAM or similar CIWS systems, more hangar space but less effective flight deck parking area for a similar number of aircraft (stealth/ice and cold/top weight considerations), baseline 3D/volume and surface radars, ECM, SCM, and related electronics, similar magazine capacity, and similar level of propulsion machinery (might be necessary to economize more on electric drive, which is a contingency for laser/EM weapon refits in the distant future) and ship service capacity and at the same level as a common destroyer type.  Differences would include no well deck, half as much troop lift capacity accomodated only periodically for short periods of time (some CA/AF bases would have superstructure mock-ups for proper training prior to adequate levels of exercises at sea prior to operational deployment when they arrive), much less vehicle and container stowage that would load/offload in direct paths abeam through various straightforward arrangements without need for complex elevator arrangements, a through path flight deck to aid in the launch and recovery of fixed wing aircraft and UAV's, significantly greater sonar capabilities, significantly greater radar capabilities in a proportion of the units, greater aircraft support even though they would embark only the aircraft needed for a particular deployment, heavier construction for greater damage tolerance and longer hull life.  (Note:  it is difficult to be brief in some descriptions here, since this is beginning to drag on).

Compared to a larger number of helicopter/guided missile ships of the form of recent history (I have seen some references to as many as 18, although not all with full armaments) with similar amounts of machinery and electronics and weaponry, I don't think the cost would be much different for either.  The problem is, the SCSC does little to assert Arctic sovereignty, has little if any capacity for expeditionary operations beyond supplementing the escort service to other navies, and will cost the same ten to twenty billion dollars in the end.  

This post is getting too long, you are probably right concerning manning requirements for the submarines (I was thinking more along the lines of 3 watches of four with two officers, a heavy reliance on automation, and a more limited patrol duration than common types).  In the end, it might make more sense to abandon self sufficiency and opt for four to six Type 212 AIP's to start replacing the Victoria's a few years down the road from now.  The aluminum powered boats originated some years ago when the defence budget was larger, their were lots of Soviet submarines prowling the Arctic and Atlantic, the specified displacement and crew was larger, and hydrogen fuel cells were no where close to as developed as they are now even if they still could benefit from further development, although I would still be inclined to test both internal and external aluminum fuel cells aboard the Chicoutimi as well as isotope power for life support and emergency communications systems and lithium ion batteries under real operating conditions if only to get hard test results prior to making a decision on Type 212's and possible design options for them.  It would be rather arrogant to assume to have expert knowledge of every aspect of military science.




 
There is no SCSC program its now the DEstroyer Replacement Program.

Sangemon class oiler....I have looked and find nothing on them, could you mean another class?
 
It would be rather arrogant to assume to have expert knowledge of every aspect of military science.

Amen.  I have been doing this more than 20 years and am still reminded daily about how much I don't know.
 
A typo, Sangamon Class CVE-26-29, converted oiler that had, if memory serves me right, an unrefueled range in excess of 12,000nm even though it was not exploited because its escorts did not have similar endurance.

My background, had serious health problems in my early twenties and almost died in hospital once, so I never joined the military; might have become an officer in the Dragoons actually.

After some years pursuing a professional accounting career I got sick of it, and have enjoyed working in a number of hands on trades since.

Devised and built a mechanical gearing device for armour, but it has greater non-military uses, and my machine tooling skills still need some work since it is not a trade I have been in and needs more time on the mill/lathe.
 
WRT submarine crews, the ALPHA class submarine (Project 705 (Лира/Lyra)) was perhaps the most automated submarine ever created and it had a crew of 31 (27 officers, 4 petty officers). Tom Clancy aside, the ALPHA seems to have been designed for short cruises, protecting the Soviet littorals against the incursion of American naval forces. More general purpose submarines in the Soviet/Russian fleet had much larger crews; the Project 971 Щука-Б (Shchuka-B, Pike, NATO reporting name Akula) has a crew of 51 (25 officers, 26 enlisted). This can be considered the "lower" bound for a general purpose SSN. Comparable American SSN's have more than double the crew.

Even assuming our sailors are able and wiling to operate under very austere conditions for long cruises, looking at historical designs would suggest capable nuclear submarines have a minimum size of @ 3500 tons submerged. The only reason I am going nuclear here is that the twin requirements of under ice operations and global deployment for Canadian ships would be difficult to meet with conventional submarines.

About the only sort of warships I could see sharing a common hull might be an arsenal ship, an LPD/LHD and an AOR, but considering the vast differences in equipment fit, this seems to be a rather pointless exercise.
 
My understanding of the Alpha's is that they were designed as interceptors to protect the ballistic missile boats in the Barents and Kara Seas, so they were never too far from base.  Soviet practices also did not put too great a premium on lives, so the small crew of 31 would probably have been an unacceptably low number by Western standards.  They did not last very long in service, which considering the high up front capital cost of a titanium hull and dense liquid metal cooled reactors, they probably were an overly tight design that was just unsustainable in the end.

Although the Type 212 AIP's reportedly have an output of only 240kW/320shp on fuel cells, thats still enough to make a couple of knots underwater, and they require a crew of only 27.  How much of this are hard numbers or stretching the truth I don't know, nor does it really indicate how well they will perform twenty years from now.  They still have a diesel and the theoretical prospect of employing lithium batteries in place of the tried and true lead acid cells.

I suppose the only real way to make a decision on this would be to use the Chicoutimi as a trials ship.  She still needs a reconditioning refit, so it might be an opportunity to accept the extra cost to remove one of her diesels and ballast the difference so the extra space could be used to trial a fairly large combination(s) of aluminum fuel cells and lithium batteries under stringent safety precautions.  Might also be possibly to test a similar external combination in a ballasted/neutral buoyancy enclosure aft of the sail.  At this point, I don't think it is too critical whether there are three or four boats in active patrol service with the navy, and besides, the ship would still be capable of operational use.

I remember quite well the 1980's flirtation with trying to develop a fleet of nuclear boats, the aluminum boats actually slightly preceding it by a year or so and being driven by the same strategic requirement of Arctic sovereignty and ASW in the North Atlantic and the Pacific.  The program never really got off the ground then, and for whatever the cause DND seems to have even greater difficulty executing programs and projects today than they did then.  The defense budget was a little bigger back then as well.


 
Same old story.  Not enough money and nobody with any vision of the future.  Seems like enerytime we finaly get a capilibiity its too late. Remember when we led the world in several fields of naval technology, well thats  history now and we've become late followers instead of leaders in any field.  Seems that a major requirement for NDHQ is that you become brain dead and  a yes man with no ideas of your own.

Cheers
 
STONEY said:
Same old story.  Not enough money and nobody with any vision of the future.  Seems like enerytime we finaly get a capilibiity its too late. Remember when we led the world in several fields of naval technology, well thats  history now and we've become late followers instead of leaders in any field.  Seems that a major requirement for NDHQ is that you become brain dead and  a yes man with no ideas of your own.

Cheers

Nice broad brush  ::)

Regards
 
Ya, easy to be cynical.  I've dropped in and out over the years, been more concerned of late with the growing list of privates, corporals, and sergeants.  Just doesn't sit easy with me, and I'm no bleeding heart either.
 
Thucydides said:
WRT submarine crews, the ALPHA class submarine (Project 705 (Лира/Lyra)) was perhaps the most automated submarine ever created and it had a crew of 31 (27 officers, 4 petty officers).

Any idea why so few NCMs?

Tom Clancy aside, the ALPHA seems to have been designed for short cruises, protecting the Soviet littorals against the incursion of American naval forces. More general purpose submarines in the Soviet/Russian fleet had much larger crews; the Project 971 Щука-Б (Shchuka-B, Pike, NATO reporting name Akula) has a crew of 51 (25 officers, 26 enlisted).

Even that's a huge officer/NCM ratio.
 
The Russian Navy prefers for their officers to do jobs normally done in Western militaries by junior and senior enlisted.
 
STONEY said:
Same old story.  Not enough money and nobody with any vision of the future.  Seems like enerytime we finaly get a capilibiity its too late. Remember when we led the world in several fields of naval technology, well thats  history now and we've become late followers instead of leaders in any field.  Seems that a major requirement for NDHQ is that you become brain dead and  a yes man with no ideas of your own.

Cheers

Nice to see that you have faith in the present generation. You basically gave up on them before they get a chance to get anything started ::)
 
Neill McKay said:
Any idea why so few NCMs?

As I recall, it's because of conscription - enlisted men were out as soon as their term was up, and thus did not acquire the technical skills needed for these jobs. Thus, officers (consisting of volunteers and longer-term conscripts) had to fulfill technical positions that in Western armies would be fulfilled by NCOs.
 
Has anyone actually looked at a chart?

The approaches to the NW Passage are ~4500 nm from Halifax. That's a 9000 nm round trip. At 7.5 knots likely SOA, you're looking at 50 days to get there and back. As large as the Victorias are, they're limited to about 45 days endurance unless you want to get really uncomfortable. That means at best they'll just be able to get to the general area and then they'll have to leave.

Realistically you might be able to achieve a NW Passage sovereignty patrol on a Collins type displacement(~3000 tons), but it might need to be even larger. A smaller boat isn't going to even reach the patrol area, let alone actually perform once they get there.


 
As I recall, it's because of conscription - enlisted men were out as soon as their term was up, and thus did not acquire the technical skills needed for these jobs. Thus, officers (consisting of volunteers and longer-term conscripts) had to fulfill technical positions that in Western armies would be fulfilled by NCOs.

I guess you missed Reply#113
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
I guess you missed Reply#113

I did not miss it - you mentioned that the Russian's preferred to use officers for those positions, without explaining why. I was simply trying to convey the rationale behind the Russian use of these officers.
 
JasonSkald said:
I did not miss it - you mentioned that the Russian's preferred to use officers for those positions, without explaining why. I was simply trying to convey the rationale behind the Russian use of these officers.

Actually it has more to do with reliability issues. The Russian Navy has always seen enlisted as menial labourers, any sort of techiical or operational procedures are done by officers.
 
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