Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[MilEME09]

Agreed.

As ever, good leadership is the most effective, and most difficult, thing to guarantee any military organization.

And sometimes it's the leadership that isnt showing up. Unfortunately lately I have actually witnessed the PRes working against it self more then trying to help it self, like auto no fill any requests it receives, why? Cause they dont wanna do work unless forced to. Was entertaining to see said individuals caught in the act and having the CO and RSM sort them out.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Thats why I mentioned reservist leave legislation. In Alberta we get 20 days per year for military activities, a brigade EX is usually 10 days, give plenty of notice, order all to show up and use 10 of their 20 days. now you get collective training for the entire brigade atleast once a year. I am well aware the flaws in the legislation, I am a weapons tech in the PRes, my courses have been as long as 3 months, employers aren't thrilled at all with that.

Makes sense, I didn't see that part earlier on. Its just tiring arguing with Reg Force members (at the unit or elsewhere) as to why they are being ridiculous in their expectations. For example they were complaining about a lack of Reservist instructors on courses and why should the Reg Force have to provide instructors, etc.

Most Reservists simply can't commit to a full summer after highschool/post secondary unless they have some sort of seasonal job which is off in the summer (Teachers are the only one off the top of my head).

The Swiss have a interesting system. When your hired they train you for a year, then every year afterwards they have a 1 month exercise. I am pretty sure they don't bother with parade nights the rest of the year, as realistically that month in the field does more for retaining skills than any number of parade nights or weekend exercises.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Makes sense, I didn't see that part earlier on. Its just tiring arguing with Reg Force members (at the unit or elsewhere) as to why they are being ridiculous in their expectations. For example they were complaining about a lack of Reservist instructors on courses and why should the Reg Force have to provide instructors, etc.

Most Reservists simply can't commit to a full summer after highschool/post secondary unless they have some sort of seasonal job which is off in the summer (Teachers are the only one off the top of my head).

The Swiss have a interesting system. When your hired they train you for a year, then every year afterwards they have a 1 month exercise. I am pretty sure they don't bother with parade nights the rest of the year, as realistically that month in the field does more for retaining skills than any number of parade nights or weekend exercises.

Perhaps the Army is being unrealistic in what trades the Army reserve can reasonably be expected to employ if training length to get to OFP is outside of what can reasonable be expected of a reservist.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Makes sense, I didn't see that part earlier on. Its just tiring arguing with Reg Force members (at the unit or elsewhere) as to why they are being ridiculous in their expectations. For example they were complaining about a lack of Reservist instructors on courses and why should the Reg Force have to provide instructors, etc.

Most Reservists simply can't commit to a full summer after highschool/post secondary unless they have some sort of seasonal job which is off in the summer (Teachers are the only one off the top of my head).

The Swiss have a interesting system. When your hired they train you for a year, then every year afterwards they have a 1 month exercise. I am pretty sure they don't bother with parade nights the rest of the year, as realistically that month in the field does more for retaining skills than any number of parade nights or weekend exercises.

The Swiss are a mainly conscript force, of course, with different imperatives from ours. However, a friend’s son is heading back to Switzerland to do his military service (which guarantees citizenship!) and they have a choice of how long they spend on their initial training/ employment - 6,12,18 months.

They also get paid whatever wage they were making in civvy street plus a (fairly modest) military pay on top of that. I can’t see us ever doing that, of course.

 

[dapaterson]

Perhaps the Army is being unrealistic in what trades the Army reserve can reasonably be expected to employ if training length to get to OFP is outside of what can reasonable be expected of a reservist.

Precisely.  It's a comprehensive force structure question, both full-time and part-time, and not a Res F / Reg F question.  What can be effectively and reasonably generated from a primarily part-time force - in terms of skills development and skills maintenance.  What is more reasonable to vest in a full-time component.  And what is a reasonable time commitment to demand.  The (in)famous 37.5 days in the Army Reserve was based on the one night a week, one weekend a month model - not because that's what trade X takes to maintain, but because that was seen as a reasonable time demand.

The current Army Reserve model seems hell-bent on breaking and burning out leadership - its baked-in assumptions are that a unit CO and RSM should be working nearly three times that amount - 100 days per year.  And those are working days - so nearly five months for a notionally part-time commitment.

For junior leaders it's similar - instruct on a BMQ two weekends this month; one weekend in the field with your parent unit this month, plus one training night per week, plus calls and emails all month long that you're not compensated for plus...

 

[mariomike]

The Swiss are a mainly conscript force, of course, with different imperatives from ours. However, a friend’s son is heading back to Switzerland to do his military service (which guarantees citizenship!) and they have a choice of how long they spend on their initial training/ employment - 6,12,18 months.

They also get paid whatever wage they were making in civvy street plus a (fairly modest) military pay on top of that. I can’t see us ever doing that, of course.

We remained on full pay ( and benefits, seniority, pension. sick bank, vacation etc. ).

But, that was only for two weeks. Each and every summer guaranteed, as long as you were in the PRes.

 

[Blackadder1916]

The Swiss are a mainly conscript force, of course, with different imperatives from ours. However, a friend’s son is heading back to Switzerland to do his military service (which guarantees citizenship!) and they have a choice of how long they spend on their initial training/ employment - 6,12,18 months.

They also get paid whatever wage they were making in civvy street plus a (fairly modest) military pay on top of that. I can’t see us ever doing that, of course.

https://www.moneyland.ch/en/swiss-military-service-financial-questions-answered

6. Do I receive a salary for my military service?

You receive a token payment from the military itself. The amount you receive depends on your rank, and ranges between just 4 francs for a recruit to 30 francs for a lieutenant general. You may be able to increase this “salary” by completing a military training course. For example, cadets who complete a kitchen chef apprenticeship, lower officer school or a Sergeant training program receive a payment of 23 francs per day.

7. Can I get compensation for income lost due to military service?

Yes, you do receive daily financial compensation for your military service. All employed workers in Switzerland pay a social security contribution of 0.45% towards military service (EO contributions), and this is passed on to service people in the way of lost income compensation. The minimum compensation which all recruits are entitled to is 62 francs per day, regardless of whether or not they had an income prior to service. This is paid out by the Old Age and Survivor’s Insurance (OASI) and Disability Insurance (DI) office (AHV/IV – AVS/AI).

If you work for an employer, compensation equal to 80% of your salary is forwarded to you via your employer. Although this will never be less than the minimum compensation of 62 francs per day, the maximum compensation you can get is capped at 196 francs per day (80% of a 245-franc daily salary). This money is channeled through your employer, which is obligated to pass it on to you. Your employer can decide to pay you more than what the OASI/DI compensates, for example if 80% of your salary is above the maximum compensation of 196 francs per day, your employer may pay you 80% of your full salary. Of course, your employer may also choose to continue to pay you 100% of your salary, if they are exceptionally generous.

If you run your own business and have business-related obligations such as rentals or leases, you can receive additional compensation of up to 67 francs per day. This compensation also applies to farm owners (and their children who are actively employed in the family business).

And Swiss military pay rates.
https://www.vtg.admin.ch/de/mein-militaerdienst/dienstleistende/sold-eo.html

 

[mariomike]

Also worth considering, here in Canada.

Cost to employer - even if only away on military training two weeks every year.

Your 80 hours regular pay. Add to that, another 80 hours, paid at overtime rate, to cover your shifts while away.

ie: 200 hours of pay to cover an 80 hour military leave.

In addition, "Employees are paid their regular pay provided they submit any compensation received for military service to the city treasurer, unless this compensation is paid for days they are not scheduled to work."


Because we were on 12-hour shifts, we only had to come in 20 days every six weeks. ie: 6 or 7 days every two weeks.

So, in reality, you only had to turn in half your military pay.

Even a relatively short paid absence could be pretty expensive for an employer.

Even if unpaid, they still have to bring people in on overtime to cover your shifts.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Precisely.  It's a comprehensive force structure question, both full-time and part-time, and not a Res F / Reg F question.  What can be effectively and reasonably generated from a primarily part-time force - in terms of skills development and skills maintenance.  What is more reasonable to vest in a full-time component.  And what is a reasonable time commitment to demand.  The (in)famous 37.5 days in the Army Reserve was based on the one night a week, one weekend a month model - not because that's what trade X takes to maintain, but because that was seen as a reasonable time demand.

The current Army Reserve model seems hell-bent on breaking and burning out leadership - its baked-in assumptions are that a unit CO and RSM should be working nearly three times that amount - 100 days per year.  And those are working days - so nearly five months for a notionally part-time commitment.

For junior leaders it's similar - instruct on a BMQ two weekends this month; one weekend in the field with your parent unit this month, plus one training night per week, plus calls and emails all month long that you're not compensated for plus...

And perhaps 1/3 of all that time is spent on 'Army stuff', while the rest is wasted on administrivia and responding to the multitude of requests from various HQs.

 

[quadrapiper]

Precisely.  It's a comprehensive force structure question, both full-time and part-time, and not a Res F / Reg F question.  What can be effectively and reasonably generated from a primarily part-time force - in terms of skills development and skills maintenance.  What is more reasonable to vest in a full-time component.  And what is a reasonable time commitment to demand.  The (in)famous 37.5 days in the Army Reserve was based on the one night a week, one weekend a month model - not because that's what trade X takes to maintain, but because that was seen as a reasonable time demand.

Bet a great deal of that would be easier to sort out if the Army Reserve was revised to something much more like the Naval Reserve: give up on, or at least strongly de-emphasize, unit specialization.

Might also help if it provided a better way to bring PLAR-able civvies into uniform: suddenly there's a reasonable path to reserve service available and not dependent on having e.g. a service battalion in the area.

Most Reservists simply can't commit to a full summer after highschool/post secondary unless they have some sort of seasonal job which is off in the summer (Teachers are the only one off the top of my head).

IIRC logging comes to a halt in the summer, too, due to fire risk. Expect there's other trades in a similar situation.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Might also help if it provided a better way to bring PLAR-able civvies into uniform: suddenly there's a reasonable path to reserve service available and not dependent on having e.g. a service battalion in the area.IIRC logging comes to a halt in the summer, too, due to fire risk. Expect there's other trades in a similar situation.

The reserves used to be an Army of students commanded by teachers... not so much anymore.

 

[CBH99]

Might also help if it provided a better way to bring PLAR-able civvies into uniform: suddenly there's a reasonable path to reserve service available and not dependent on having e.g. a service battalion in the area.IIRC logging comes to a halt in the summer, too, due to fire risk. Expect there's other trades in a similar situation.

I remember one of the last BMQ courses I was an instructor on, I was sitting in a classroom chatting with some of the recruits.  As I got older, the appeal of strict "calling them to room" and the strict formality started to wain on me.  I felt I was able to get much better & faster results just by being a good leader & normal person most of the time, and left the formality for the parade square.

I specifically remember sitting there, silently thinking to myself what a well qualified group of people I had infront of me.  Most of them had degrees, or a 2 year college diploma.  I remember there were a few police officers & sheriffs, some of whom had a decent amount of experience on civvy side, who basically had to start from scratch as they started their career as a military police officer - amongst a few others who were well trained already, going into various trades.


I'm not familiar with the PLAR requirements & such as they are now.  Do we recognize people's civilian qualifications easily, or do we make it so much of a hassle they don't bother?  If we made it easy for people to do the military version of their civilian qualifications, that would help get people in and keep people in. (If we don't already...I've been out for a while now.)

 

[daftandbarmy]

I remember one of the last BMQ courses I was an instructor on, I was sitting in a classroom chatting with some of the recruits.  As I got older, the appeal of strict "calling them to room" and the strict formality started to wain on me.  I felt I was able to get much better & faster results just by being a good leader & normal person most of the time, and left the formality for the parade square.

I specifically remember sitting there, silently thinking to myself what a well qualified group of people I had infront of me.  Most of them had degrees, or a 2 year college diploma.  I remember there were a few police officers & sheriffs, some of whom had a decent amount of experience on civvy side, who basically had to start from scratch as they started their career as a military police officer - amongst a few others who were well trained already, going into various trades.


I'm not familiar with the PLAR requirements & such as they are now.  Do we recognize people's civilian qualifications easily, or do we make it so much of a hassle they don't bother?  If we made it easy for people to do the military version of their civilian qualifications, that would help get people in and keep people in. (If we don't already...I've been out for a while now.)

My experience in trying to guide people through the PLAR door was universally disappointing, for both us and them. I gave up trying a couple of decades ago...

 

[mariomike]

IIRC logging comes to a halt in the summer, too, due to fire risk. Expect there's other trades in a similar situation.

Some jobs have seasonal layoffs. But, in Canada, I would guess they are more common in winter than summer. I am thinking of municipal islands ferry boat workers, for example. 

At any rate, for workers in that situation, would it be ( financially ) worth working in the PRes while collecting Employment Insurance ( EI )?

 

[MilEME09]

My experience in trying to guide people through the PLAR door was universally disappointing, for both us and them. I gave up trying a couple of decades ago...

I know one person who has navigated it successfully, Ticketed red seal mechanic, had certification for tracked commercial vehicles, basically everything under the sun, was granted a full write off of all his Vehicle tech trades courses, except what was then Eme common due to the mrt field portion. I have been told myself if I hit my head hard enough and OT'd to cook (my civilian trade) I'd have everything written off as well with my red seal. I think part of the issue is we aren't asking the right questions at the recruiting stage, if someone has applicable skills at intake we should be gathering those documents and doing a PLAR right away.

 

[Kirkhill]

I think I have said this before.

I believe it is easier to teach a tradesman how to soldier than it is to teach a soldier how to be a tradesman.

The Homeguard/Militia system is better seen as a means of organizing manpower for national emergencies, which could include invasion, than as an extension of the Force in Being.  That role is a role for the Regs and the Reserves.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I know one person who has navigated it successfully, Ticketed red seal mechanic, had certification for tracked commercial vehicles, basically everything under the sun, was granted a full write off of all his Vehicle tech trades courses, except what was then Eme common due to the mrt field portion. I have been told myself if I hit my head hard enough and OT'd to cook (my civilian trade) I'd have everything written off as well with my red seal. I think part of the issue is we aren't asking the right questions at the recruiting stage, if someone has applicable skills at intake we should be gathering those documents and doing a PLAR right away.

Well, that's awesome. Seriously.

I've had experienced, trained, long haul truckers try to get their military driving equivalencies with no success, amongst other similar experiences.

Like, you know, the retired 45 year old PPCLI WO who gave up in frustration after trying to CT into the reserves, and failing, for over a year. But that's a different subject.

 

[medicineman]

Like, you know, the retired 45 year old PPCLI WO who gave up in frustration after trying to CT into the reserves, and failing, for over a year. But that's a different subject.

Nobody likes a new guy more qualified than them...:sarcasm:

MM

 

[daftandbarmy]

Nobody likes a new guy more qualified than them...:sarcasm:

MM

:rofl:

It's OK.... he was an Anti-tank guy. We have no use for those kind of skills

 

[MilEME09]

Nobody likes a new guy more qualified than them...:sarcasm:

MM

We used to have an Ex reg force mat tech at my unit, qualified to have his leaf decades ago. Only reason he didn't get it, his trade didn't exist in the PRes, that's it. Most ridiculous thing I have ever encountered in my career, atleast he didn't care he was a CFL. Our system is broken and the admin to move people to and from within our organization needs to get better. When it's faster to quit, wait 6 months and rejoin your desired trade then it is to do an OT, we have a problem.