Discussion of Canada's Role in AFG (merged)

[Pikache]

Francine Dube
CanWest News Service

Friday, January 16, 2004

In his last speech to Canadian soldiers here who begin returning home next week, Maj.-Gen. Andrew Leslie said "there is no way in ****" that the Canadian Armed Forces can continue to maintain 2,000 soldiers in the region past August.

"Quite frankly, a whole bunch of you -- not only you here, but also those people working their butts off back in Canada to support and sustain this, need a bit of a break," he said Thursday.

"So, until the Canadian Armed Forces grows in size, until we get a pause in operational missions, we will not keep 2,000 soldiers here."

The soldiers on the base now, most of whom arrived in the summer of 2003, begin returning home next week, to be replaced by the Royal 22nd Regiment (the Van Doos) from Valcartier, Que., whose tour of duty stretches to August 2004.

Leslie, deputy commander of the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force helping maintain order as the shattered country recovers from more than 20 years of war, said he believes NATO will remain in Afghanistan for at least another five years.

"If I were a betting man, I would say it‘s closer to 10," he added.

However, if Canada maintains any kind of presence after August 2004, it will be a small one, Leslie said.

The decision on what kind of force to maintain is up to the Canadian government, and Leslie said he is expecting a decision in February or March.

His comments come on the heels of a plea by the new NATO secretary general, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, who on Wednesday called on nations to increase their contribution to the security assistance force. While the force, numbering about 5,500 soldiers from 34 countries and centred in Kabul, has been mostly successful in maintaining order in the capital, deadly acts of terrorism continue to plague other parts of the country, in particular Kandahar in the south and the provinces east of Kabul, near the border with Pakistan.

Leslie began the day at a site just outside Camp Julien, where 100 heavy weapons, including multiple rocket launchers, rounded up by the Afghan Militia Forces from sites around Kabul, were brought to one location to be catalogued and stored for future use, if necessary, by the newly formed Afghan National Army.

The weapons were rounded up to prevent warring factions in the country from using them against each other or the government. A provisional administration is in place and elections are slate for June.

© Copyright 2004 Calgary Herald

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

I sure hope martin has some plans up his sleeve, and starts presenting them soon.

 

[Pikache]

In recent days it does not look like Taliban wackos are not yet ready to quit, now resorting to suicide bombing to try to get ISAF to go away.

It seems that DND wants to pull back all troops after the Vandoo tour of Afghanistan.

My thought is that should Canada keep sending troops to Afghanistan?

To me, last two suicide attacks seems like the taliban is calling us out, and I think we should meet that challenge. To pull out now would be like running away.

Without our efforts to bring peace and stability to Afghanistan, who‘s going to step in?

 

[fusilier955]

If we pull out, it sends the message to terrorists that if you put attack peacekeepers, they will back out. If that happens then it could lead to more attacks on not just Canadians, but peacekeepers in general. I think for the future‘s sake, we should stay in it and not back down, granted it will get worse before it gets better.

 

[Infanteer]

Totally agree, although I am not there and can‘t speak for the situation on the ground, I think in general both ISAF and the Canadian government has to step it up a notch and start hitting the countryside. The OP the Royals pulled off a couple weeks ago is a perfect example of the stance we should have. To me buttoning down or pulling out seems tantamount to admiting defeat, and does no justice to the soldiers who have given their lives doing their duty.

The Americans are still fighting a war in the south of the country, until we admit that and get in with the mindset, Karzai will be the Mayor of Kabul and ISAF will be his constabulary.

 

[Garry]

I‘m a little biased here, I‘m not real fond of peacekeeping. I‘ve yet to discover any Non-Allied country that‘s worth even one Canadian Soldier‘s life.

On the other hand, if our soldier‘s are fighting an enemy of Canada, and are taking the fight abroad, them I‘m all for staying. Better to fight on their turf than on ours.

So I guess the question is, are we fighting a war or peacekeeping?

Anyone remember if we actually declared war on terrorism? On Al-Quaida?

 

[Pikache]

"Are we all humans, or some are more human than others?" LGen Dallaire

 

[Infanteer]

Better to fight on their turf than on ours.

That, my friend, is what I believe is the whole point of going to these ****-holes.

So I guess the question is, are we fighting a war or peacekeeping?

Anyone remember if we actually declared war on terrorism? On Al-Quaida?

I think the NATO declaration of Article 5 was a close enough thing to it, was it not?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I don‘t think Canada wants a reputation of running when it got tough. It would do everyone in the Forces a dis-service and make those who have been killed a sacrifice in vain.

 

[Franko]

NATO never declared article 5 on the Taliban. The tour is Non-article 5 right now.

As for our going in, don‘t forget it was a ploy by JC to keep us out of the Iraq War, and saving face at the same time by saying we were committed to the war on terror. The last thing JC thought when he gave a green light to the Ops was "at least we are not involved in the Gulf...it‘s not sanctioned by the UN".

As for us pulling out...not yet. Plans are in the works to keep us there for another 3 tours(it‘s pretty firm from what I have been told) with drafts done up for the next 5 years(normal SOP). We‘re in for the long haul...as for the politicians saying we‘re taking a year off, they better get with the program and stop shooting off their mouths when they are done making their promisses.

What kind of message are they trying to send to our allies in theater? We‘re with you for the long haul but sorry...we‘re going on vacation for a year?

I can‘t see it...nor do I want to believe it. Canada has been resting on our laurels for much too long. Sure it‘s a proud heritige...but it‘s in the past. Our reputation doesn‘t help us when a bomb is exploded in one of our major cities. The Americans reputation didn‘t help when 911. It‘s a huge mistake on our part if we take a "vacation", one that will tarnish the CF and Canada‘s reputation

As for Ex-Dragoon‘s statement, I couldn‘t agree more.

Regards

 

[GForce]

That‘s a good question, I think USA ruined Mideast relations, so they should be the ones fixing it even if their losing allies and moral around the world. Now everyone making such a HUGE deal when 1 Canadian soldier is killed just reminds everyone how our army is shrinking and it doesn‘t help criticism. Now heavier vech‘s might of saved his life but obviously paul martin has other plans (wasting money all over). So dont count on it

 

[Korus]

I think most canadians are not too naive to believe that being a Canadian soldier and not an American protects them somehow.

You should see how much flack I catch from some of the clueless people I encounter at my University.. I kindly try to explain to them that although I am a Canadian soldier, I don‘t make US Government policy.
And that‘s IN Canada...

 

[kaspacanada]

I agree S_Baker. Infidels are infidels and occupiers are occupiers - depending on your perspective.

Originally posted by Franko [qb]
As for us pulling out...not yet. Plans are in the works to keep us there for another 3 tours(it‘s pretty firm from what I have been told) with drafts done up for the next 5 years(normal SOP). We‘re in for the long haul...as for the politicians saying we‘re taking a year off, they better get with the program and stop shooting off their mouths when they are done making their promisses.

What kind of message are they trying to send to our allies in theater? We‘re with you for the long haul but sorry...we‘re going on vacation for a year?

I can‘t see it...nor do I want to believe it. Canada has been resting on our laurels for much too long. Sure it‘s a proud heritige...but it‘s in the past. Our reputation doesn‘t help us when a bomb is exploded in one of our major cities. The Americans reputation didn‘t help when 911. It‘s a huge mistake on our part if we take a "vacation", one that will tarnish the CF and Canada‘s reputation [/qb]

Where did you hear that we have plans for those ROTO‘s? That‘s interesting to me.

Like you I don‘t agree with taking this break, but from what I have seen, the problems with the CF‘s personnel and operational tempo have been building for a long time now. It will very likely hurt our reputation, and it doesn‘t send a good message to our allies, but I think we‘ve caused this ourselves. (primarily politically but also due to our apparent recruiting shortages) I think we could use the break (speaking from what I have seen in the Senate Reports) but am curious about what you think. Do we need the break or should we open up a new string for this? (if there isn‘t already one)

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Franko what are your sources regarding up coming Roto‘s. I very much doubt the current gov‘t knows how long we will be there plus this is an election year. Who is to say we would have stayed if it was quite all along. The gov‘t has made it clear they want to scale things back so maybe they were going to pull out regardless.

 

[Franko]

S. Baker... my point was the US has always been proactive when it comes to terrorists. They have helped out many countries that were and still are in need. The US is the ONLY superpower left after the cold war...and still you were attacked by a bunch of radicals who didn‘t fear the wrath of the US military...at that time, now it‘s a different story...cowards.

Canada on the other hand has been resting on it‘s laurals from the past wars as a fighting nation. We were feared during the Great War and WW2. Korea was a reinforcement of that belief. Now we rest on our butts while we let everyone else fight our battles. Our allies are fighting and dieing and we just sit there, safe at home watching it happen on TV.

We SHOULD be shoulder to shoulder with our allies on the war in Iraq. But the peacenicks in Ottawa have us doing the exact opposite.

If they attacked the US, the only uberpower left...whats stopping them from doing it to us? I say bring the fight to them, smoke 'em out(as Dubbia would say) and get rid of these *******s as quickly as possible in the most efficient way.

I was not in any way saying Canada is the best in comparison to the US or any other country for that matter. We are in a partnership with you Yanks(NATO) and other countries in this war on terror. Why are the powers that be in Ottawa trying so hard to keep us from being where we belong, with your troops in the sand box, is complete bollocks!

Sorry for the confusion...long day in the C.P.

BTW...The only thing we are better at is: Canadian beer is better than Yank beer

Regards

 

[Franko]

The question on ROTOs to Afganistan...common knowledge of EVERYONE here in Bosnia. It was released by DND to the major networks. As for drafts....SOP for furure ops. They always do it, even when they closed out Cyprus.

Regards

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Well I don‘t need to tell you that things that are firm are about as firm as water. Things change so much that I don‘t believe until its come and gone. So as for 3 more tours after the R22d I won‘t be holding my breath.

 

[Franko]

We‘ll soon see. I‘m like you actually. During prayers when we got that point I laughed!

Regards

 

[Bartok5]

From my personal perspective as one who spent 6 months in Afghanistan during the "combat" phase, we have no choice but to remain committed. A handful of deaths do not provide adequate substantiation for a retraction of our national commitment to support for the international "war on terrorism". The questionable political motivations that led us to continue our commitment in the form of the ISAF "peace support" role are irrelevant.

We "ante‘d up" for ISAF to avoid a combat commitment to Iraq, and we‘d best honour our government‘s pledge to the current 1 year ISAF deployment unless we wish to be perceived in an even worse international light that we currently are. When I say "international, I give equal gravity to the perceptions of our major allies (the U.S., England and Australia) as well as the enemy. You can all draw your own conclusions as to what would happen on both fronts were we as a nation to cut and run as soon as we suffer a handful casualties. My comment is in no way intended to belittle or down-play the sacrifice of those who have been killed or wounded. Those are simply the "hard mathematics"....the "measure" if you will, of any nation‘s commitment to the war on terror.

Having lost 4 comrades-in-arms back in April of 2002, I can certainly empathize with the RCR Battlegroup‘s loss of 3 soldiers over their 6 month deployment. Sadness and frustration are undoubtedly the order of the day. Sadly, as so many coddled Canadians fail to understand, casualties are the price of freedom. I would humbly suggest that we as a nation have gotten off VERY lightly to date. This will most likely NOT be the case in the future.

When placed between a rock and a hard place and forced to decide between an open-ended commitment to Iraq or a year as the major contributor to ISAF, the choice for our government was a "no-brainer". The ISAF mission was deemed to be the most "palatable" option - requiring the least effort and offering the least casualties, while still earning us the bare minimum of international acceptance. In typical fashion, what our politicos failed to realize was that either option would entail casualties. As harsh as it may sound in light of the most recent incident, Afghanistan was always (and remains) the least likely option casualty-wise.

So, NO - we cannot and should not "cut and run" from our ill-advised Afghan commitment. If we do so, we send an unmistakable message to the scum-bags of the world that we are a soft target. Many of us may not agree with our government‘s employment (misemployment?) of the CF‘s meagre resources, but I can say with the utmost certainty that evey those who have never served a day in uniform understand the situation that we‘re collectively in.

To answer an earlier question, the Al Qaeda and Taliban ARE "Declared Enemies" of our nation. This official designation was enacted shortly following the 9/11 attacks. The declaration of a "national enemy" was the political/legal basis for launching my former unit on deliberate combat operations against the AQ and Taliban 2 years ago.

Just my thoughts as a serving soldier who has inhaled more than a little Afghan dust.....

 

[GForce]

" I think most canadians are not too naive to believe that being a Canadian soldier and not an American protects them somehow. " That‘s rather funny providing we‘ve bailed you out of alot and you‘ve returned absolutely nothing.. remember world war one, and two when Canadian and European or Oversea‘s troops were protecting you for 3 since‘s while you guys picked your noses? quiet please as if you knew what was going on in the afghan. I think your niave for even posting that. Americans are nice guys ok? you guys always try and be one step ahead of us when your like 15 times our size in population that alone makes you look bad providing we‘ve militarized and urbanized almost more then you per capita