Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]

[hyung7423]

I'll break it down -

As an OCdt (which you will be until the completion of Basic) you have not received a commission - Ergo you hold no "superior" rank over even a Pte and everyone you meet in the military technically outranks you. 

As a small (but in my opinion a very important) point - it's a bad habit to look at the NCM/Officer relationship as you being "superior" - Professionalism will usually have them calling you "sir", but that says very little about how much they are willing to support you and your goals.  Far better to look at it as you have a job to do, as does everyone else you work with - no one is particularly "better" then the other, only have specialized jobs and responsibilities.  Food for thought.

I think you misunderstood my tone or what I have said. I ask if I was "a superior," not "superior to" an NCM. You sounded overly critical, so I wanted to explain myself a bit better to make sense to you. I do understand that NCM's could potentially have lots of experience, and I certainly respect them.

 

[Ayrsayle]

Aren't DEO enrolees commisioned as Second Lieutenants on enrolment? And attend BMOQ with that rank?

Ostrozac: Not unless something radical has changed in the last 5 years.  You will be paid as a 2Lt for the duration of BMOQ (and later, should you not pass your initial course), and this will retroactively be counted toward your "time in rank" assuming you become qualified BMOQ.  You'll most certainly be an OCdt until completion of BMOQ, upon which you will be given a commissioning scroll (commissioned) and assume the duties and responsibilities of a commissioned officer.  I am not as familiar with the PRes system, and have seen some differing practices from that side of the house.

Hyung7423: You are not "a superior" in any shape or form.  PuckChaser was correct in that the person addressing you as "sir" was simply being polite (in deference for what you will eventually become).  An OCdt does not have the formal authority (given by the queen, expressed in being commissioned) to command anyone.  It was not my intention to sound critical, but simply make you aware of the realities of being an officer (from my point of view).  If you already believe what I've said, carry on!  From my (albeit limited) experience, the officers that have the hardest time being successful in their jobs are the ones who feel themselves to be "superior" to those they lead.

 

[hyung7423]

Just one more question : as an EME DEO, I will be attending the Infantry school twice (one for common army phase and the other for professional training). Is the common army phase what I've read as IODP 1.1?

 

[Ayrsayle]

Common Army Phase is referred to by a number of names: CAP, Phase 2, etc.  IODP 1.1 is the Infantry Officer Development Programme 1.1 (Dismounted Platoon Commander) and would be considered the "professional development" period for Infantry officers (at least that is the common usage here on the site).

 

[hyung7423]

Thank you for the answers. I hope to become a great military engineer.

 

[Ayrsayle]

Good Luck!

 

[Pusser]

As an OCdt (which you will be until the completion of Basic) you have not received a commission - Ergo you hold no "superior" rank over even a Pte and everyone you meet in the military technically outranks you.  This is often misunderstood even among serving members....

Many will feel you don't deserve the "sir" until after you are finished all of your qualification training, but it varies.

Umm.  No.

The National Defence Act clearly places officer/naval cadets superior to all NCM ranks in the rank scale (although woe betide the young officer/naval cadet who tries to pull rank on the RSM or Coxswain  ;D).  Officer/naval cadets are still officers.  Strictly speaking, they are "subordinate officers" (as opposed to junior, senior or flag/general officers), but officers nonetheless.  As they are not commissioned (which does not mean they are "non-commisioned members" or "non-commisioned officers"), they are not normally saluted (although it's on wrong to salute them), but they are properly addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am."

 

[Ayrsayle]

Couldn't find it in the NDA (save for it shall be enforced along established military tradition, etc) so I decided to start digging.  Found it in the QR&O's.

(In short, if you don't want to read, my statement above was completely wrong and here is why.  Though until the individual signs his VIE, he's technically still a civilian and "sir" is being polite)

QR&O's section 3.01 - RANKS AND DESIGNATIONS OF RANK

(1) The ranks of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act, which provides:

I

OFFICERS

    General
    Lieutenant-General
    Major-General
    Brigadier-General
    Colonel
    Lieutenant-Colonel
    Major
    Captain
    Lieutenant
    Second Lieutenant
    Officer Cadet

II

NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

    Chief Warrant Officer
    Master Warrant Officer
    Warrant Officer
    Sergeant
    Corporal
    Private

Which in turn in reinforced by:

3.09 - ORDER OF SENIORITY

(1) An officer takes seniority over all non-commissioned members.

and

3.20 - COMMAND GENERALLY

In cases not otherwise provided for in QR&O, command shall be exercised by:

    the senior officer present;
    in the absence of an officer, the senior non-commissioned member present; or
    any other officer or non-commissioned member, where specifically authorized by the Chief of the Defence Staff, an officer commanding a command or formation or a commanding officer.

Absolutely no mention of commissioning as the grounds for exercising authority/command.  I had been instructed in error previously and now have the correct answer.

 

[Pusser]

Couldn't find it in the NDA

The table of ranks is in the Schedule (i.e. at the end)

 

[hyung7423]

Queen's Regulations and Orders (QR&Os)
Volume I - Chapter 3 Rank, Seniority, Command and Precedence
Section 1 – Rank and Seniority
3.01 - RANKS AND DESIGNATIONS OF RANK
(1) The ranks of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act, which provides:

I

OFFICERS

General
Lieutenant-General
Major-General
Brigadier-General
Colonel
Lieutenant-Colonel
Major
Captain
Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Officer Cadet

II

NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

Chief Warrant Officer
Master Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer
Sergeant
Corporal
Private

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member who, on or after the date this article comes into force (18 September 1986), holds a rank in the Canadian Forces set out in paragraph (1) and who, in accordance with orders and instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff wears a naval uniform, shall use and be referred to by the designation of rank set out in Column II of the Schedule to the National Defence Act having the same serial number as that of his rank in paragraph (1), and reference in this paragraph to the rank held by an officer or non-commissioned member includes any rank to which the member may be promoted, reduced or reverted from time to time.

(3) Except in accordance with paragraph (2), no officer or non-commissioned member shall, after the coming into force of this article, use or be referred to by a designation of rank other than as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act.

(4) The ranks set out in paragraph (1) shall be used in all official communications within the Canadian Forces, except with respect to officers and non-commissioned members referred to in paragraph (2) for whom the rank designations set out in Column II of the Schedule to the National Defence Act shall be used

National Defence Act (R.S.C., 1985, c.N-5)

Powers of Command

Marginal note:Authority of officers and non-commissioned members

19. The authority and powers of command of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as prescribed in regulations. <-- schedule
R.S., 1985, c. N-5, s. 19;R.S., 1985, c. 31 (1st Supp.), s. 60.

Schedule (National Defence Act, R.S.C., 1985)
(Section 21)
LINK
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/N-5/page-149.html#h-228
SCHEDULE TABLE

	Column I	Column II	Column III	Column IV
		OFFICER
1.	General	Admiral	General	Air Chief Marshal
2.	Lieutenant-General	Vice-Admiral	Lieutenant-General	Air Marshal
3.	Major-General	Rear-Admiral	Major-General	Air Vice-Marshal
4.	Brigadier-General	Commodore	Brigadier	Air Commodore
5.	Colonel	Captain	Colonel	Group Captain
6.	Lieutenent-Colonel	Commander	Lieutenant-Colonel	Wing Commander
7.	Major	Lieutenant-Commander	Major	Squadron Leader
8.	Captain	Lieutenant	Captain	Flight Lieutenant
9.	Lieutenant	Sub-Lieutenant Commissioned Officer	Lieutenant	Flying Officer
10.	Second Lieutenant	Acting Sub-Lieutenant	2nd Lieutenant	Pilot Officer
11.	Officer Cadet	Midshipman [br]Naval Cadet	Provisional 2nd Lieutenant[br]Officer Cadet	Officer Cadet
		Non-commissioned Members
12.	Chief Warrant[br]Officer	Chief Petty Officer, 1st Class	Warrant Officer[br]Class 1	Warrant Officer,[br]Class 1
13.	Master Warrant[br]Officer	Chief Petty Officer, 2nd Class	Warrant Officer[br]Class 2	Warrant Officer,[br]Class 2
14.	Warrant Officer	Petty Officer,[br]1st Class	Squadron-Quarter-[br]master-Sergeant,[br][br]Battery-Quarter-[br]master-Sergeant,[br][br]Company-Quarter-[br]master-Sergeant,[br][br]Staff Sergeant	Flight Sergeant
15.	Sergeant	Petty Officer,[br]2nd Class	Sergeant	Sergeant
16.	Corporal	Leading Seaman	Corporal[br]Bombardier	Corporal
17.	Private	Able Seaman[br]Ordinary Seaman	Trooper[br]Gunner Sapper[br]Signalman[br]Private[br]Guardsman[br]Fusilier[br]Rifleman[br]Craftsman

 
   
   
   
   
   
 

 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 
 
   
   
   
   
   
 

I combined everything for you guys And I am officially an officer cadet now. On leave until June 1st BMOQ. 

 

[mdgwilliams]

Any plans to reinstate signing incentives for DEOs? In particular medical officers?

 

[Loachman]

A rewarding career in service to Her Royal Majesty is not incentive enough?

 

[Thomdrils]

A rewarding career in service to Her Royal Majesty is not incentive enough?

Lets be real here, we know this isn't the case for a lot of people.

 

[Loachman]

In return for loyal service, She pays generously, provides all required training to Her loyal servants at no cost to them, affords bounteous opportunity for travel, lavishes stylish clothing in ample quantities (subject to the whims of Her less-perfect agents, admittedly), and looks after one's medical and health needs.

Such generosity and benevolence is seldom extended to unskilled and unproven prospective employees by any other employer.

Yet some hold out their open hands and beg for more...?

 

[PMedMoe]

and looks after one's medical and health needs.

In Ontario (and some other provinces), you'll pay a small "fee" for that.... 

 

[Pusser]

In Ontario (and some other provinces), you'll pay a small "fee" for that.... 

Only if you have dependents as that is whom you are paying for.  CF members pay "nothing" for their medical care (nothing in the sense that there is a deduction from your pay - we "pay" in other ways).

 

[PMedMoe]

Only if you have dependents as that is whom you are paying for.  CF members pay "nothing" for their medical care (nothing in the sense that there is a deduction from your pay - we "pay" in other ways).

I never said it was deducted from the pay.  However, dependents or not, people residing in Ontario pay every year.

 

[Pusser]

I never said it was deducted from the pay.  However, dependents or not, people residing in Ontario pay every year.

i see what you mean now.  I thought you were referring to something like BC Medical premiums that members with dependents pay there.  On the other hand, Ontario has instituted a blatant tax grab which CF members still have to pay, even though we get no benefit from it.  So, in a sense we're still not paying for our own medical care in Ontario as we are simply paying for a system we're not allowed to use. 

 

[mariomike]

Direct Entry Officer (DEO)  -  A student currently in the final year of a degree program is also eligible to apply as a DEO.

Asked and answered in Ask a CAF Recruiter. Adding for reference,

http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/117753/post-1437682/topicseen.html#new
"Once you begin your final year of your degree you can submit your application for the direct entry officer entry plan."

 

[HG]

Hi there, I'm currently a year away from completing a computer science degree and was interested in Joining the regular force. As far as the joining through DEO is anyone aware of which specialties or jobs I may be eligible for with a Computer Science degree?