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Destroyer Replacement Program

The enemy is going to volley-fire whatever they have anyway, because they're going to assume the counterfire is inbound. The size of the target is unlikely to affect that as much as it's armament.

Bigger ships are generally cheaper to build, because it's a lot easier and cheaper to install a pipe or waveguide if it doesn't have to be bent all around other things in the way. They are also generally more survivable than smaller ships, all other things being equal.

I'm not sure that translates into better mission-survivable rates. It's still pretty easy to take out the various fragile bits on and around the ship that control the combat systems. While the ship may be able to float and maybe even move after a hit, it's unlikely to fight.

 
Volley fire dpends on the threat and the type of platform that is carrying that missile. Its an automatic and almost instinctual assumpton, the bigger the target the more of an HVU it is. We are doing more and more littoral ops these days, using something this big would only be viewed as something that could go to fewer areas and be forced to operate in waters and such and such a depth. The Draught on a 4500 ton frigate compared to a 20,000 ton behemoth are two different kettles of fish. We want to maximize our contributions not limit them.
 
drunknsubmrnr said:
There are a lot of associated infrastructure costs with significantly larger warships. A 20 000 ton FFH would need more docking space, more fuel etc. That could have siginficant follow-on effects on thing like JSS design and infrastructure budgets.

wpa, AAW warships are built around their radars/launchers. You can't just change those without a lot of very significant issues later.

I am trying to follow you here?
I am not proposing a 20 000 ton FFH or AAW.
Maybe Canada should join Germany on the 125 frigate.
But with 28 000 ton JSS being built and New polar icebreakers planned the naval bases are going to have the be upgraded. So then what the point being made.

However no one has yet come up with a plan take care of the gap of the old AAW ships being taken out of service and new one designed and built in a shipbuilding industry that can not handle the work load on ships need just for Gov. and not including the commercial use.   
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
Volley fire dpends on the threat and the type of platform that is carrying that missile. Its an automatic and almost instinctual assumpton, the bigger the target the more of an HVU it is.

I agree. I just think the minimum for "All of everything we have" is going to begin at around 5 000 tons, so there isn't any difference between that and 20 000 tons for that purpose.

Ex-Dragoon said:
We are doing more and more littoral ops these days, using something this big would only be viewed as something that could go to fewer areas and be forced to operate in waters and such and such a depth. The Draught on a 4500 ton frigate compared to a 20,000 ton behemoth are two different kettles of fish. We want to maximize our contributions not limit them.

I agree, although the USN seems to think a ship around that size is OK for littoral ops.
 
WPA said:
I am trying to follow you here?
I am not proposing a 20 000 ton FFH or AAW.

That was a reply to somebody else.

WPA said:
Maybe Canada should join Germany on the 125 frigate.

Or the Dutch with the LCF. Both use APAR/SMART-L/Mk-41/SM-2, which are the same technologies that we've chosen. Actually, they're pretty much different versions of the same basic design.

WPA said:
But with 28 000 ton JSS being built and New polar icebreakers planned the naval bases are going to have the be upgraded. So then what the point being made.

There are only 3 JSS planned, and the AOPS are supposed to be smaller than the old steamers. There's not much of an upgrade required. If you replace all of the FFH and DDH with significantly larger ships, and you're going to need a significant infrastructure upgrade.

WPA said:
However no one has yet come up with a plan take care of the gap of the old AAW ships being taken out of service and new one designed and built in a shipbuilding industry that can not handle the work load on ships need just for Gov. and not including the commercial use.   

There are a lot of plans, just no money. With $20 billion in DND funding and $30 billion+ in DND requirements, somebody's going to be disappointed.
 
Interesting thread.

Thulycides- since we are being creative here, I have an idea for a new armoured vehicle for use in Afghanistan.  It's based on those 400 ton trucks you see at Syncrude.  Something that big should be able to carry a huge amount of guns, missiles and armour.  It's size would make it impervious to any current IED.  The infantry section it would carry, would be so spread out in the vehicle that it would be nearly impossible to hit any one soldier, even if you did manage to get through the armour.  Sure- you would have to completely rebuild the Army's support infrastructure and all of the roads in Afghanistan, but think of how much punishment they could absorb!

Sorry, couldn't resist  ;)

The whole point is to make sure your ship doesn't:

a) get detected in the first place.
b) if it does get detected, get hit.

In that regard, "big" is not your friend! 

Also, If you build a big ship, someone else will just build a bigger missile or torpedo!

Like I said, good thread!
 
Say, doesn't the Swedish army use articulated Volvo dump trucks as APC's in a pinch? You could be on to something there  ;)

While 20,000 tons is a pretty big cruiser, I suspect that there are ways to reduce the RCS and other signatures of ships (the DD-21 Zumwalt class Destroyer is one example). I agree with drunknsubmrnr that once a ship is detected, the enemy will attempt to overwhelm it with waves of missiles, torpedoes, manned planes carrying iron bombs and suicide boats, or whatever else they can come up with.

The Falkland Islands war is very instructive, the Argentinians sank or damaged 17 British ships despite the fact the RN had some air cover with the Harriers, advanced SAMs (for the time), gun defenses down to soldiers lined up on the deck of a liner converted to a troop ship and firing small arms, and towards the end, land based Rapier SAM batteries. Many of the ships were struck with iron bombs (not even "smart bombs"), and at least one ship was struck by an EXOCET launched from a trailer pushed to the edge of the island. The Tanker war of the 1980's also demonstrated large, non milspec ships could absorb a great deal of punishment.

20,000 tons is indeed a very large ship, but how do we make our ships survivable in these conditions? Would a 10,000 ton ship do? 7,500? Can a 5,000 ton platform be rearranged to be more survivable?
 
Thucydides said:
The extra costs associated with vastly increased size are noted, I wonder if the trade off is worth it? Looking at naval actions since the 1980's, traditional warships have been sunk or taken out of action with rockets, missiles, iron bombs, mines, at least one torpedo, suicide bombers in a small boat and even a Carl Gustave. Lots of nations have a limited capability to try to deny the seaways and littorals with missiles, mines, diesel submarines and torpedoes, as well as taking desperate measures like attacking with bomb dropping aircraft and suicide boats. If the cruiser (since that is indeed what it would be) is big enough to absorb hits like that and stay in action, then perhaps it is worth the associated extra costs.

Missiles - An FF/DD sized warship is going to be able to hide amongst its chaff/flares and/or NULKA much easier than a 22,000 ton ship, whose countermeasures will not be as effective.
Iron bombs - An FF/DD sized warship will be able to attempt to outmanoeuvre planes dropping dumb bombs, a 22,000 ton monster will never do it. Its also just simply a larger target, with the vitals being just as fragile as on an FF/DD, only so much easier to hit.
Suicide Bombers - This happened once to a western navy, in harbour, unprepared. I don't see how this really compares.
Torpedoes - Yes the Belgrano was sunk by torps. But she pre-dated WW2.
Mines - Operating amognst minefields, especially in the littorals, I'd much sooner take my chances in a ship with smaller detection signitures (magnetic, acoustic, etc), that can be both stopped and turned in a pretty small distance than I would in a ship that is by no means discrete and could literally not stop if its life depended on it.

Smaller ships can also far more easily manoeuvre to open up their weapons arcs. Its why they are used to escort the fat ships.
And they are less likely to be detected.

Other negs as far as larger ships are concerned: draught, fighting in the litorals, not only would a larger ship turn slower with its much greater advance and transfer, but It would be far more limited in its navigable water. It won't be able to go as far inland to evade detection or attack, or to take part in Naval Gunfire Support to help the boys ashore.

[quote author=Thucydides]Operating in littoral waters would be more difficult with a large hull design, but the trade off is the ship can better absorb the punishment that an enemy can deliver compared to a conventional warship.[/quote]
It would not just make it difficult, it would make it impossible. Frigates/Destroyers operate pretty much on the size limit for a surface combatant in the littorals.
Absorb more punishment? It IS going to get punishment, much more of it. It would probably get in the way of the assets it should be protecting, and would not contribute effectively in its job as an escort.

 
Most large ships are lost due to uncontrollable fires on board, and it is a common cause of loss or total constructive loss of smaller vessels as well.

Contrary to the popular belief that HMS Sheffield was lost due to the use of aluminum in the superstructure, it was the loss of the primary fire fighting main that doomed the vessel.  As a cost saving measure no redundancy was built in to the fire fighting equipment, a related practice common amongst aircraft and other platforms of the era.  The vessel was scuttled some days after the attack due to heavy seas and the distance to any safe harbour.

Smaller vessels are more susceptible to being sunk primarily because they can't absorb that much punishment relative to their structural strength.  One torpedo would likely sink any 5000t vessel, a 15-25,000t vessel could survive one and possibly two or three if the ship is structurally strong and has good damage control.

Of course, the specifics of a particular ship loss have to be examined and their is no standard correlation between displacement and weapon hit tolerance.  The IJN lost most of its carriers due to them being set on fire, and the few late war carriers completed actually had concrete poured around their aviation fuel tanks in an attempt to reduce the fire hazard.   The USN heavily damaged or lost carriers were primarily the result of fire, not watertight integrity.  The Bismarck was pounded mercilessly and turned in to a flaming wreck, but ultimately had to be scuttled/torpedoed (there are different accounts on this, but the ship was already a loss due to the fires and massive topside damage).

Most exceptions to this had peculiar causes.  The most obvious, HMS Hood, due to a massive magazine explosion, in part due to its older design and the weaknesses in its deck armour to plunging fire.  Some RN vessels lost at Jutland were due to the volatility of the gun propellants aggravating fires on board, in an indirect sense the inadequacy of firefighting control relative to the hazard.  HMS Prince of Wales was lost to multiple torpedo hits on one side of the ship and an inadequately seasoned crew rushed into war service, IJN Shinano was lost to a similar cause.  The latter's sister ships Musashi and Yamato suffered far greater levels of damage before being lost.

Merchant vessels generally have nothing in their design concerning structural strength beyond seaworthiness and only basic fire and damage control equipment, since that would reduce the deadweight tonnage they are designed to maximize.  This is in fact one of the principal differences between merchant and naval vessels, and although a merchant vessel could be converted to a rough military standard, they have typically been compromises to war priorities and the result is almost always inferior to a purpose built naval ship of a similar displacement.

I would not disagree that a smaller number of larger vessels is not a prudent course, even accepting a number of increased indirect cost elements like shore infrastructure and other items.  Main battle tanks cost a disproportionate amount of money to field, but an army can not operate effectively without at least a few at the sharp end, and no amount of network-centric theorizing changed that in Afghanistan.  However, I have to stop here since this discussion could rapidly evolve into volumes of material on the subject.






 
Belgrano was lost to pre-WWII torpedoes, so it's not really an example of what would happen with modern weapons.

Modern fish operate by snapping the targets keel with the gas bubble, then smashing the area around the keel with the initial and reflected shock waves. The larger the target, the faster it will sink due to it's own weight pulling the shattered halves apart.

T.S.Rea said:
Contrary to the popular belief that HMS Sheffield was lost due to the use of aluminum in the superstructure, it was the loss of the primary fire fighting main that doomed the vessel.  As a cost saving measure no redundancy was built in to the fire fighting equipment, a related practice common amongst aircraft and other platforms of the era.  The vessel was scuttled some days after the attack due to heavy seas and the distance to any safe harbour.

The hit on Sheffield also took out HQ1 as well as rupturing the fire mains in several places. That design could handle a single rupture, but had trouble with multiple ruptures, especially when the people that knew how to fix them had been killed. The CPF and TRUMP designs are pretty much the same as Sheffield in that regard.

T.S.Rea said:
Smaller vessels are more susceptible to being sunk primarily because they can't absorb that much punishment relative to their structural strength.  One torpedo would likely sink any 5000t vessel, a 15-25,000t vessel could survive one and possibly two or three if the ship is structurally strong and has good damage control.

The best you could hope for on a 25 000 ton vessel with one modern torpedo hit is just being mission-killed, but it will probably sink faster. It's also not difficult for any submarine to fire multiple weapons. If it was just a matter of hitting it twice, that's not a problem. The upper limit would be around 4 weapons, possibly 6 due to the number of tubes on a modern boat. If we move to external weapons, all of the wepaons could be salvoed pretty quickly.

T.S.Rea said:
Merchant vessels generally have nothing in their design concerning structural strength beyond seaworthiness and only basic fire and damage control equipment, since that would reduce the deadweight tonnage they are designed to maximize.  This is in fact one of the principal differences between merchant and naval vessels, and although a merchant vessel could be converted to a rough military standard, they have typically been compromises to war priorities and the result is almost always inferior to a purpose built naval ship of a similar displacement.

I disagree. Merchant standards are different than naval ones, not better or worse with the notable exception of shock resistance and there are ways around that. The merchant standards are generally cheaper because of mass produced components, not inferior standards.

T.S.Rea said:
I would not disagree that a smaller number of larger vessels is not a prudent course, even accepting a number of increased indirect cost elements like shore infrastructure and other items.  

The entire strategy needs to be thought through very carefully, starting with the Task Group concept. Do we need it? Can we afford it? If either answer is no, what do we do then?

Once those questions are answered, we can get into specific ship requirements for size etc.







[/quote]
 
Torpedos will likely remain the most lethal anti-ship weapons for their size, and navies like the USN and Western fleets do not place enough emphasis on defences from them (or at least appear not to on the surface).  Torpedo attack has been rare in the postwar world, however, the most well known of the few the ARA General Belgrano by two 350kg torpedo warheads sinking the 45 year old treaty limited hull never designed with any torpedo resistance given the priority to guns and citadel armour relative to similar Japanese cruisers and the performance of torpedos in that era.

Defence in depth is the only practical solution to dealing with the threat of torpedo attack, a large torpedo tolerant hull being the last line of defence.  The first line of defence would be aircraft (actually satellites if we still have any, but these can't attack the threat platforms), the larger hull being suited to carrying a larger number of them relative to the costs of phased arrays and SAM's and RAM/CIW systems and analogous sub-surface systems.  This being an open forum, however, I don't think it is wise to get into any detail concerning the many dozens of factors and scenarios involved in ASW and torpedo defences.

Theory being nice but not always relevant in the real world, torpedos are vulnerable to counterattack from supercavitating weapons since the typical torpedo is not very fast or difficult to detect and localize.  I doubt these supercavitating rockets will ever achieve much range, but as defensive weapons and limited underwater travel ASW weapons they have some potential even with basic competent guidance.  Again, I could add further here but do not think it prudent.  Nothing exists at present as far as I am aware beyond experimental types, but ten years or so from now might see them come into service as a successor or supplement to ASROC et.al.

Reliance upon or in the absence of anti-torpedo weapons, the tolerance of the hull to torpedos provides the extra layer of defence from them along with the limited developed countermeasures available.  As conceived, the large hull vessel would factor resistance to torpedo attack into it including avoidance of using the keel as a primary strength member.  These ships would not be built large to incorporate a bewildering array of weapons and systems, they would be large to make them damage tolerant as expressed by a large margin of the displacement allocated to that end.  It would be possible to squeeze everything into a hull half the size, but for the cost of a hundred million or so in steel lost anyways to greater reliance on auxilliaries, why would you want to given its vulnerability to relative modest attack for a ship costing over a billion and have further problems during mid-life refits?

Although one torpedo hit would likely result in the mission kill of the vessel, a task force would not have one frigate.  However, a task force built around one or two air capable amphibious ships would have to withdraw since all the eggs have been put into one or two baskets.  The frigate damaged by one to as many as three or four torpedos would have to withdraw, but assuming it is still afloat, the projection force aboard would have some capacity to transfer and rejoin the force at a different point in the operation.  Tirpitz survived a 4 ton charge under the keel, and although never fully corrected the ship was available for service some months later.  Moreover, torpedos do not always function properly such that launching four to six weapons does not mean all of them will reach the target or even explode at an optimal position under the hull, but that still remains a potent level of attack that could sink all but the largest ships.

The principal problem I have with the typical frigate or destroyer is that they get packed with a full array of systems that are so expensive that they become the de facto major surface combatants.  The balance between offense and defence has become skewed out of rational proportion and too reliant on active defences to survive any length of time that warrants the expenditure for what they deliver.  There is little defence in depth.

The large vessel would not be an agile ship, but 5000-10000t ships are not either, and when in close to other vessels its expensive armament will often be of no value given minimum range requirements.  However, a corvette sized vessel with good seakeeping would be better suited to these subsidiary roles, which owing to the presence of the large frigate, would not require a full suite of systems.  The active defences would comprise the modern equivalant of a short range point defence/CIW armament (RAM/Rocket Phalanx) supplemented with various remote weapons like 5.56mm miniguns, 0.50 machineguns, 40mm grenade launchers, 25mm chain guns, the 35mm cannons in storage in Montreal if suitable (?), and similar types, the passive defences focussed around compact citadel pattern protection of the crew stations and the best available PPE.  Supplemental aft deck packages would compromise minehunting equipment that has been bought for the MCDV's and similar forms of towed passive/active arrays and towfish as well as an army 155mm autogun motor carriage and deck mount PGM's designed with this application in mind for later transfer ashore after the beachhead is established.

A full fledged task force requiring the deployment of over half the fleet being the extreme or maximum scenario, the basic frigate-corvette package would provide the most common deployment formation.  In the absence of an embarked projection force, the extra capacity would permit higher endurance on station and some improvement to habitability for long deployments, and as the exception but not the norm mid-deployment crew exchanges to double the length of distant ship deployments.  Although it could be argued that it is not likely that the navy would ever engage in any significant scale of amphibious operation like a generic Falkland Islands scenario, building the fleet to that end would allow it to deploy self sufficient formations approaching that level as part of a larger coalition task force if only to ensure the Dieppe tragedy is not repeated.  The creation of this fleet would take a couple of decades, but it would have a functional role as soon as the first few vessels entered service.

It would prove politically easier to get the funds for building one ship every two years in sub-groups of two to four (ie.keeping contract awards well below the $10B threshold), interspersed with contracts for corvettes and lighter armed patrol ships, arctic patrol corsair/tenders, additional auxilliaries (if only two JSS are built now), and coast guard icebreakers and patrol vessels (which might have some commonality with the naval size equivalents), et.al., as well as the submarines (which might be produced through a different program approach of a government owned agency given the specialized nature of submarine design).

I have no doubt you are well aware of the complexity of this subject matter and that there are a large number of factors not mentioned here, but I have actually thought the matter through in depth over the course of many years.  Their would doubtlessly be specific problems/difficulties I have not foreseen (been on the receiving end of opinions of people who know nothing of what they speak of from any direct experience too many times), but little that subsequent detail rework can not resolve.  Ship design has always been an exercise in compromises to competing demands.  I have no personal biases regarding any of it or anything related at all to career, business, or political posturing.


Quick Estimates (Ice class simple rating by 1st year feet of ice with qualifications, most double bow form)
---------------

12 CPF's, 3-4 AAW DDH  >>>  10 SOE Frigates  [Class 8+]                                                                          $15B

2 AOR/JSS                    >>>  2 JSS, 2 JSS/SOE    [Class ?/8+]                                                                        3

1 Sealift (?)                  >>>  2 Bulk Liquid/Container Sealift  [Class 0+]                                                            1

6-10 AOPV's                  >>>  6 AOPCT (system commonality to corvettes)  [Class 5+]                                        2

4 Diesel Submarines      >>>  10 Arctic/coastal/task force Submarines                                                              6 (8 boats)

12 MCDV                      >>>  10-16 Corvettes/OPV's (No.s depend on CCG, AOPV, et.al. factors)[Class 1+]          3

----------------------

6-9 Icebreakers            >>>  10 Icebreakers, slightly larger-enhanced/commonality to AOPCT [Class 5/8+]          3

80 Various Patrol          >>>  16-20 OPV's/Corvettes (& smaller craft incl. joint NR small h/c) [Class 1+]              3

                                                                                                                                                        ================
                                                                                                                                        Navy Only      30/20=$1.5B/year


Yes, it is a lot of money, little of it allocated since this is not any actual government plan, automation (which does not always produce the savings hyped ahead of time, as per my own experiences with CNC manufacturing) may help manning issues but they will remain a problem, but this is the general framework around my own views on attaining a three ocean fleet with a nominal capacity to project a basic expeditionary force.  However, I think the real problem is the people running the show few of whom appear to have anything but their own immediate interests in mind, and it is not really a question of funding.

It also is not a question of just the navy, but the air force and the army working to integrate a substantial element of their forces into the fold.  Their are workable near term and long term solutions, but if the air force's recent game with pulling a Chinook is any indicator, it will be yet another Dieppe all over again.
 
T.S.Rea said:
Theory being nice but not always relevant in the real world, torpedos are vulnerable to counterattack from supercavitating weapons since the typical torpedo is not very fast or difficult to detect and localize. 

You just lost me. Since when are torpedoes not very fast? Or easy to detect and localise outside of an instrumented range? When was the last time (or first) that a torpedo has been intercepted by anything, let alone a "supercavitating weapon"?

T.S.Rea said:
I doubt these supercavitating rockets will ever achieve much range, but as defensive weapons and limited underwater travel ASW weapons they have some potential even with basic competent guidance. 

They already do have some potential. However, they're only useful if they're nuclear-tipped to compensate for their lack of guidance. Said guidance is impossible to install because senor signals can't get through their supercavitating gas bubble.

T.S.Rea said:
Again, I could add further here but do not think it prudent.  Nothing exists at present as far as I am aware beyond experimental types, but ten years or so from now might see them come into service as a successor or supplement to ASROC et.al.

Or those programs could die just like the rest of the active anti-torpedo defence programs since WWII.

T.S.Rea said:
Reliance upon or in the absence of anti-torpedo weapons, the tolerance of the hull to torpedos provides the extra layer of defence from them along with the limited developed countermeasures available.  As conceived, the large hull vessel would factor resistance to torpedo attack into it including avoidance of using the keel as a primary strength member.  These ships would not be built large to incorporate a bewildering array of weapons and systems, they would be large to make them damage tolerant as expressed by a large margin of the displacement allocated to that end.  It would be possible to squeeze everything into a hull half the size, but for the cost of a hundred million or so in steel lost anyways to greater reliance on auxilliaries, why would you want to given its vulnerability to relative modest attack for a ship costing over a billion and have further problems during mid-life refits?

The ship has to be sufficiently rigid to still be able to function as a weapons and sensors platform. Making a ship sufficiently flexible to handle the shock of a torpedo hit would cause problems elsewhere.

T.S.Rea said:
Although one torpedo hit would likely result in the mission kill of the vessel, a task force would not have one frigate.

For the CF, a mission-kill is as bad as a sinking, possibly worse. The TG commander would have to detach another frigate or the AOR to tow the damaged frigate to port. That's bad for sustainment, especially since torpedo evasion usually burns up a lot of fuel.

T.S.Rea said:
The frigate damaged by one to as many as three or four torpedos would have to withdraw, but assuming it is still afloat, the projection force aboard would have some capacity to transfer and rejoin the force at a different point in the operation. 

The projection force aboard wouldn't have any knees left. Shock damage tends to do that.

T.S.Rea said:
Tirpitz survived a 4 ton charge under the keel, and although never fully corrected the ship was available for service some months later.

Tirpitz never moved under her own power again after that. She was used as a floating gun battery but moved by tugs.

T.S.Rea said:
The large vessel would not be an agile ship, but 5000-10000t ships are not either, and when in close to other vessels its expensive armament will often be of no value given minimum range requirements.  However, a corvette sized vessel with good seakeeping would be better suited to these subsidiary roles, which owing to the presence of the large frigate, would not require a full suite of systems. 

Corvettes are not only not big enough to have good seakeeping, they're not big enough to carry even a self-defence combat system. They're not really any use to anybody. The smallest ships that can have good seakeeping and a capable self-defence system are frigates. The frigates are barely capable of defending themselves, let alone a bunch of corvettes around them. You need destroyers for that. That's why we have a task group with a destroyer and several frigates.

T.S.Rea said:
It would prove politically easier to get the funds for building one ship every two years in sub-groups of two to four (ie.keeping contract awards well below the $10B threshold), interspersed with contracts for corvettes and lighter armed patrol ships, arctic patrol corsair/tenders, additional auxilliaries (if only two JSS are built now), and coast guard icebreakers and patrol vessels (which might have some commonality with the naval size equivalents), et.al., as well as the submarines (which might be produced through a different program approach of a government owned agency given the specialized nature of submarine design).

What $10B threshold? We're having a tough time even getting refits approved at this point.

T.S.Rea said:
However, I think the real problem is the people running the show few of whom appear to have anything but their own immediate interests in mind, and it is not really a question of funding.

It is definitely a question of funding. I can't speak to the people running the show, but there is just no money right now for a major naval construction program. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see JSS cancelled in favour of more C-17's.
 
To add regarding corvettes, for the most part OPVs are fulfilling the roles corvettes once did. Corvettes though are still being built and utilized by several nations. Witness the K130 class that the German Navy has now coming online.
 
But I would bet the Germans use them for the Baltic and coastal patrols in the North sea.
 
sledge said:
But I would bet the Germans use them for the Baltic and coastal patrols in the North sea.

I would also bet you will see them in the Med and the Gulf as well.
 
Launched from 20,000 metres, an 80 knot wire-guided torpedo would take 8 minutes to reach its target, from 5000 metres at 45 knots for a simple torpedo about three and a half minutes.  In an age of long range sensors and weapons that is a very long time, more than enough for a VLS supercavitating depth charge armed vessel to destroy both the torpedos and/or pre-terminal guidance wires and the launching submarine.  There have been unconfirmed reports of Russian SSBN's being armed with such weapons in addition to the advanced prototypes known to exist; this weapon would have little likely purpose other than anti-torpedo defence.  There was reportedly even an unsuccessful Canadian attempt some years back to actually try to covertly buy one of these weapons.

Tirpitz did not conduct short sea trials half a year after the X-submarine attack by being towed to sea by tugs.  The RAF resumed attacks because it was operationally ready again regardless of outstanding distortions and stress damage to the hull.  Being moved around by tugs occurred during a brief period two months before it was finally sunk.

The on-going pattern of presenting exaggerated or simply incorrect arguments while at the same time offering no indication of any position of your own suggests only one thing.  You have an agenda.

 
In an age of long range sensors and weapons that is a very long time, more than enough for a VLS supercavitating depth charge armed vessel to destroy both the torpedos and/or pre-terminal guidance wires and the launching submarine.

But, since such a thing does not exist, you might as well have said "phaser" or "photon torpedo".

The on-going pattern of presenting exaggerated or simply incorrect arguments while at the same time offering no indication of any position of your own suggests only one thing.  You have an agenda.

While I'm sure that Mr. Drunknsubmrnr can speak for himself, I will note that, having read much of what you and he have posted, it is clear that you have not actually ever served on a warship. And it is equally clear to me that he has. Your concept of what constitutes Mission kill from a modern torpedo is, frankly, a fairy tale.  The simple fact of the matter is that a frigate sized vessel will simply cease to be, if actually hit by a modern heavy weight torpedo.  The few survivors might make the life rafts, but their fibias and tibias will be telescoped together.  There will be no damage control to do as the two halves of the former ship sink.

You have a theoretical view of warships and naval warfare.  I have practical experience.  I have well over 500 sea days (not bad for aircrew).  I have carried and dropped actual torpedoes, so I know how they work. I have tracked real submarines, so I make it my business to know as much as I can about how they operate and fight- because it is personal to me.  If I screw up, my colleagues die and my house goes to the bottom of the ocean. I have participated in many damage control exercises and two real fires at sea, so I have some idea how damage control aboard a ship actually works.  In other words, I am what you might call a real expert. You, on the other hand, spout a lot of theory (which is fine- I have no problem with someone coming here and trying out theories- that's how people learn).  But, when you get called on it by the experts, you claim that the expert has an agenda?  I suppose if error correcting is an "agenda", then I guess that I have one as well.  You could show just a bit more grace.

Some of what you are saying is broadly useful and even interesting, but most of it is just book learning theories unsupported by practical experience.
 
My concern with Drunknsubmrnr has been with the process of taking individual comments and dismissing them out of hand, often with information which is simply wrong as if to have an unstated purpose behind it.  This is an informal forum which does not have an explicit objective in itself, so why would one care to go to the effort of systematically countering opinions which are nothing more than that as if only his are some sort of last word on the matter.  Yes, I have never been in the navy, and certainly would respect the direct experience of those whom have, including not only yourself but Drunknsubmrnr himself as well, provided they have any substance to them.

(Some of the specific matters you mentioned are a little out of context to the original remarks, but that really is not the issue in this post).

That said, having experience at some particular task or subsidiary part of a task does not make anyone a definitive expert at it (myself included).  As an example, some years ago I worked as a cement finisher for a few years, learned much of what there is to know about the trade in a small fraction of the time most people require because I already had a great deal of 'book knowledge' of concrete and developed skills in a vaguely parallel line of work.

I would not consider myself to be an expert cement finisher relative to many people I had worked with during those years, since many had decades of experience.  At the same time, however, I learned to put theory to practice and developed the means to inexpensively form concrete into complex architectural mouldings that go way beyond anything these experienced hands could ever hope to construct.  At the other end of the scale, I had a structural (concrete) engineer with a couple of decades of experience inquire about a small mould that I had ready for any scrap concrete on the job remark that my method would not work well, mentioning a couple of reasons of which he was wrong about and which I had used several dozen times previously and already knew worked.

Do I consider myself an expert about concrete? No, but I knew a lot of people who thought they were.

Do I care that much about concrete? No, had my fill of the stuff, only worked the trade because of the money and the vague appeal of possibly building my own home one day.

My greatest accomplishment will probably be a geared CVT originally meant to serve as a tank transmission and steering mechanism, something often referred to by experts in this field as 'impossible'.  The experts forgot to tell me.  Of course, constructing a fully refined version of the device for use in cars (or helicopters and turbines for that matter) will take a couple of decades to complete, since I have to teach myself with regard to a few advanced technical disciplines to progress beyond the basic prototype and I am not in any hurry.  I am not likely to ever
benefit from the device, and find no appeal to the very large sum of money the thing would be worth relative to the dangers and other unwelcome consequences that would result from getting it patented and available for licensed production.  The world is not going to be radically changed in the end, nor am I worried the sky is falling that I need to delude myself that it is my purpose in life to save it.

Does this make me an expert on transmissions? No, I actually have to replace the transmission on my van due to a leaking shaft seal probably caused by bearing damage in the final drive assembly and will require the assistance of my brother to help me because I do not know that much about the particular components involved.  If this were my own transmission, it probably would not require replacement and would be much easier to change if it did on top of saving me a couple hundred dollars every year in gasoline, but I still have to work with the entrenched archaic design at hand because it will fail eventually.

I have worked for a few companies that do things a particular way because thats they only way they ever have done things, and despite knowing it is a dated method from direct experience elsewhere, the usual response is apathy.  People often become dulled by years of servitude to a particular process and resistant to change from the conditioned train of thinking.  I actually left a company slightly larger than DND not to long ago controlled by technocrats who regularly displayed an hypocrisy towards those beneath them that often lead to outright lying to me and my equals; many others also were looking elsewhere, I was not as trapped in the job as most.

The statement 'I have no problem with someone coming here and trying out theories- that's how people learn' very aptly sums up my interest in this forum as well.  It is not as if anything will accrue to me directly from participating in it, nor do I have anything to prove by it.  I also have concern with the well being of the helicopter crewman and the security of his house not only directly, but also that he and his colleagues and their house are in my country as well.

I merely take exception to arguments made on facts that are incorrect as if experience in a particular occupation provides a justification for dismissing anything to the contrary and accuracy be damned. 
 
T.S. Rea,

I am someone who has a personal interest in matters military, which has led me over the years to spend an inordinate amount of time, as an amateur, studying all the literature that I could/can get my hands on. 

I found this forum about 5 years ago and took it as an opportunity to talk to folks that actually worked with the kit and the tactics in the actual environment.  I had a rough intro - ask George Wallace and he can tell you all about it.  I learned that it is much more acceptable to ask if your hypothesis has merit than to present your hypothesis as divinely inspired.  Also people are quite willing to listen if you have got other non-military experience that might be applicable to the discussions.  Finally, the essence of debate is argument and if your individual assumptions can not withstand being tested individually then your whole case is weakened.  You must be able to support your assumptions.

PS to George - I credit our early battles with making me both a better communicator and a better manager.  Many thanks to you for that.

Cheers.
 
T.S. Rea-

I will amplify what Kirkhill said (BTW, he is a member of this forum that I have learned much from, both in terms of argument style and looking at old problems in a new way.  In short, he has earned my respect).

I will stipulate that you are a smart guy.  I will also stipulate that your heart is in the right place when you advocate for new and better ways of doing things naval. You have some ideas that I have never even thought of before.  And outsiders can actually sometimes see things that those of us working close to a problem cannot see.  Unfortunately, some of your premises are so fatally flawed that they also fatally weaken your conclusions.  Consider for a moment that when I pick apart your argument, I am actually helping you to improve it.  I do not usually stoop to personal attacks, unless the other guy goes there first.  If you feel that I have personally attacked you, I apologize. That was not my intent.  In my books you are welcome to try your ideas out here, just keep in mind what Kirkhill advised you about tone when presenting a hypothesis.  Nobody likes a "know-it-all", especially one who is getting basic facts wrong. 
 
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