Cremated Taliban as Psy-Op Tool?

[Baloo]

Other than a completely retarded argument there, Goldsmith, couple things.

1) We (Canada) have nothing to do with Gitmo, and even less to do with Abu Ghraib.

2) Comparing the Soviets and the US in the same sentence is laughable. At best.

Keep working at it.

 

[geo]

Baloo,
To certain in Afghanistan.... we're all invaders
Soviets or Americans figured they knew better and did not spend much time paying attention to customs & religion.....
Good for a giggle?

 

[Acorn]

Baloo, I won't call you a "retard," but I will question your reading skills. Or are you so simple as to think it makes a jot of difference to the average Afghani that we aren't American?

 

[Goldsmith]

You're right, Canada has nothing to do with abu graib, but I wasn't talking about Canada.

I'll be a bit more clear.
Actions like this are incredibly insulting to Muslims, and it'll go a long way towards alienating the population. To the people of Afghanistan it looks awfully familiar to the abuses of the soviets in the '80s; in fact I'm sure the Taliban probably gained a few recruits out of it. Most importantly, this is not how a western army acts, we should play by the rules of war we write.

 

[Brad Sallows]

And some of their actions are awfully insulting to us.  Perhaps they should be the ones tiptoeing around trying not to offend us, and yielding to our cultural preferences when there is a collision of cultural practices.  There is no particular reason for us to kowtow to them rather than vice versa, since they're unlikely to respect us more for being accommodating and showing weakness.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Try to fight an unconventional enemy by conventional means, you will die in the conventional way.  When are we going to get that?  Personally, I am insulted by suicide bombers and decapitation of non combatants, but that's just me, apparently.


edit for clarity

 

[Baloo]

Baloo, I won't call you a "retard," but I will question your reading skills. Or are you so simple as to think it makes a jot of difference to the average Afghani that we aren't American?

I won't call you a "retard", but I'll ask you where you're coming from.

Did I ever mention a difference between Americans and Canadians? Last time I checked in this, no, I didn't.

But what I will do, is give the majority of Afghans the benefit of the doubt and say that they will recognize the difference between Soviet occupation in the late 1980s and the current bout of fighting going on in the outlying provinces. I've talked to Afghans, one who fought the Soviets as well, and they can differentiate between Americans and Soviets. Of course, not all can, that is granted. A foreign power coming to uproot their previous government and battle fellow Afghans. Will the majority of Afghans like it? Not necessarily, but they will still note that a) the Americans are NOT Red Army soldiers, out to destroy their culture and heritage and b) the Taliban has been removed, for the better.

I will grant that Goldsmith, in your second post, I will agree with the fact that incidents like this certainly do not help the struggle, and will taint our standing with the locals, whether or not the troops on the ground intended those consequences (PsyOps probably did not...but will pay the price).

I contended in my second point that OUR (I am still unsure what Goldsmith meant...American? Canadian? All of the above?)  moral compass was not being affected for the worse, nor was that of the American Army as a whole. Goldsmith contended that he wished for the Army of the Gulf or Somalia, and incidents in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib destroyed that credibility. Considering the soldiers in question are being tried, convicted and this is certainly not an Army endorsed action (torture, etc.), I fail to see how the American moral compass (on a military strategic / tactical level) has in any way been affected, or is any worse than previous decades.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The practical inability to always walk a completely straight moral line doesn't mean we've lost our moral bearing.

 

[1feral1]

In the west we've always taken pride that we had the moral high ground, whatever basic human rights or rules of war were violated by the enemy, we were above that. To any afghani that hears of this, what differentiates us from the soviets? Between this, Gitmo, and Abu Graib I'm beginning to wonder where our moral compass has gone, and what happened to the US army of the Gulf war and Somalia.

This whole event has been blown up out of proportion (brought on by a lefty videographer)! A few dead EN soldiers. At least we did not leave them lying in a street beheaded or drag them thru the streets in their underwear after they were shot down, or wait.... hanging their burnt corspes from a bridge. They were cremated. There is a difference.

Quite frankly I am beyond insulted by the beheadings and the cold blooded murder of other infidels in this sickening war (yes all war is sickening), and again quite frankly I don't care if i insult any muslims saying such either. Seems the liberal left all all to happy to bow to these minorities. Think about it as you sit around your 'holiday' tree this Christmas. Oops, can I say that without offending?

My patience is running VERY thin.

Wes

 

[Goldsmith]

  b) the Taliban has been removed, for the better.

Agreed

At least we did not leave them lying in a street beheaded or drag them thru the streets in their underwear after they were shot down, or wait.... hanging their burnt corspes from a bridge. They were cremated. There is a difference

Its pretty enraging to see Iraqis throwing rocks at the strung-up, charred remains of contractors while a crowd taunts and screams. I would speculate(I'm no expert on muslim culture) that muslims would be equally enraged, regardless of their opinion of American actions, seeing americans taunt them with loudspeakers while their dead are desecrated. Without getting too far off topic, Abu Ghraib isnt just an isolated incident and personally, I think the disregard of the geneva conventions classifies as a failure to uphold our values.

 

[1feral1]

desecrated.

Abu Ghraib isnt just an isolated incident and personally, I think the disregard of the geneva conventions classifies as a failure to uphold our values.

Whats wrong with cremating the dead, especially when hygene is invloved. Is it an offence to muslims? Cremation was wide spread thru the tsunami regions, and secondly at Abu Grhrib, that was a fairlure in command and those actions do not speak for US and allied involvement during this war.

At the end of the day, get the media out of the units and prosecute this war without hinderance. You cannot fight and WIN a war being PC.

Wes

 

[geo]

Wes,
You are right when you say that if it was strictly a matter of hygene, most people, Afghans and Muslims as a whole would not begrudge the act... radical problems require radical solutions....
While that "lefty" newsie certainly has not helped things along.... Psyops guys didn't do much better IMHO.
The US have been talking "the moral High ground" so using this as a means to taunt the locals beligerents has had the reverse effect on the local citzens.

The Afghan gov't is trying to tell the Afghan people that they are the good guys and that the Taliban (and their friends) are the bad guys.... it's the US spin doctors in Psyops that have screwed the pooch IMHO

 

[tomahawk6]

If there had been no journalist present no one would be the wiser. It is my information that the soldiers asked the local village to bury the Taliban dead. The village declined. After a 24 hour period the bodies were burned and psyops decided to use the moment to taunt the Taliban. I dont see a violation of the UCMJ or Geneva Convention in this instance. Personally I would have left the bodies to rot.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Obviously blatant ignorance and lack of respect that of Geneva Conventions and that of a human body. All those psycho-op experts?
disrespect for Islamic religious practices? how would anyone react to a foreign army killing the locals and making fun of their religion (even if one does not practice it?) If you do not win the hearts of the people you can forget about winning the war. Thank God for Canadian soldiers, but again, wars always attract criminal minds and in every crowd there will be one or two (like the ones who burned the bodies and
enjoyed the whole spectacle. (yes, I have seen the footage on TV)

​

Well stated.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Whats wrong with cremating the dead, especially when hygene is invloved.

What's wrong with just burying them good and deep? 

 

[Michael Dorosh]

And some of their actions are awfully insulting to us.   Perhaps they should be the ones tiptoeing around trying not to offend us, and yielding to our cultural preferences when there is a collision of cultural practices.   There is no particular reason for us to kowtow to them rather than vice versa, since they're unlikely to respect us more for being accommodating and showing weakness.

Does this not put aside the fact that we're IN THEIR COUNTRY?

 

[geo]

If there had been no journalist present no one would be the wiser. It is my information that the soldiers asked the local village to bury the Taliban dead. The village declined. After a 24 hour period the bodies were burned and psyops decided to use the moment to taunt the Taliban. I dont see a violation of the UCMJ or Geneva Convention in this instance. Personally I would have left the bodies to rot.

Tomahawk.... the Platoon leader did nothing wrong. Matter of fact, he went out of his way to ask the local villagers to come and take / bury the insurgent's bodies.

If anything - most people are griping about what Psyops chose to do with the hijacked footage...
Because the footage has been aired in such a negative manner, the Plt Comd's actions are being twisted into an Anti Taliban act... and his ass is on the carpet because of it.

The Plt Comd did no wrong!

 

[a_majoor]

Wes, while I personally don't really care what or why they did to the bodies what was done I will add, sometimes Psy-Ops can have no effect on your enemy and even worse sometimes backfire. Troops today will have to learn that having cameras around 24/7 means being extra vigilant. All it takes is a few seconds of footage with a decided left-wing, anti-military voice over to royally screw up everything that you've worked hard to achieve!

If this story is true (and there is always a chance that some of this is made up), then the Psyops people bungled their part of the job:

'Psychological Operations:  Planned operations to convey selected information and indicators to foreign audiences to influence their emotions, motives, objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of foreign governments, organizations, groups, and individuals. The purpose of psychological operations is to induce or reinforce foreign attitudes and behavior favorable to the originator's objectives. Also called PSYOP. See also consolidation psychological operations; overt peacetime psychological operations programs; perception management. ' US Department of Defense

Given that Afghanistan is dominated by warrior cultures, getting into a pissing contest along those lines is counterproductive at best. Indeed, by proclaiming you are the biggest and baddest warrior in the valley, the preseige associated with "taking you out" becomes disproportionate. This isn't to say being meek and mild is the way to go, but an air of quiet confidence and a well honed message is what is needed. If the Psyops people really did mount an OP using the cremation of the dead, then I would suspect it was an off the cuff "good idea" that some junior person made on the spot without thinking through the larger consequences.

 

[geo]

Bingo!

Even here at home, when we talk / deal with our Amerindian canadians.... some of em are carrying a chip on their shoulder that is a couple of hundred years long. Does not take much to set off the powder keg when you don't think before placing mouth into gear

What is the point of getting into a pissing contest

 

[tomahawk6]

I made no comment as to whether the platoon leader did anything wrong. Although if you see the Pentagon reaction to the story the young Lt seem's to not get the benefit of the doubt. I for one support the actions of the Lt, unless something should surface that would indicate otherwise. Second guessing the troops in the field is a professional hazard in this pc world.