Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS

[Roy Harding]

If it doesnt get too far off topic, why did your mag have to go back on the pistol? ...

To move the action forward.

You can do it without a mag - if you have REALLY long fingers - but most of us normal sized folks use a mag.

 

[Gunner98]

I didnt put the details down for a reason but I will qualify it a bit more.  During Solmolia there was a ND that resulted in death.

I will qualify for you as I knew the individual as well.

www.dnd.ca/somalia/vol1/v1c14e.htm

The Accidental Shooting Death of a Canadian Soldier

MCpl Smith was charged with criminal negligence causing death and negligent performance of duty as a result of accidentally discharging his rifle and fatally wounding Cpl Abel on May 3, 1993 in Somalia. On April 11, 1994, MCpl Smith pleaded not guilty to criminal negligence causing death and guilty to negligent performance of duty.

The prosecution called a witness on the issue of the sentence, Capt Yuzichuk, the adjutant for the CAR. He testified on accidental discharges in Somalia and the unit's disciplinary response to these incidents. He stated that there had been numerous accidental discharges during the deployment and that the standard penalty set by LCol Mathieu was a fine of half a month's pay. The witness stated it was his opinion that the accidental discharges were attributable in part to the fact that, unlike other missions, in Somalia they were required to have their loaded weapons with them at all times.

In its submissions on sentence, the prosecution observed that the accused had not accidentally pulled the trigger, he had done it deliberately to "dry fire" the weapon, apparently having forgotten that the magazine was on it and that a round was in the chamber. The defence emphasized that only tragic luck separated this case from the other accidental discharges in Somalia, and asked that MCpl Smith be given a fine and a reprimand.

MCpl Smith was sentenced to four months' detention, a penalty that included automatic reduction in rank to private. The criminal negligence charge was stayed. On April 10, 1995, the Court Martial Appeal Court dismissed the defence's appeal.

As for the clearing of 9mm prior to boarding a flight - today those drills are supervised by the Flight Engineers/loadies and do not result in a live magazine being put into the pistol after being "cleared.  There is an empty magazine chained to the clearing barrel/pit.  This makes the loadie much more comfortable.

 

[mariomike]

The Accidental Shooting Death of a Canadian Soldier

There was a very nice Letter of the Day in the Star regarding the deceased:
http://img406.imageshack.us/i/cplabel.pdf/

 

[X-mo-1979]

Not an insult or directed at you at all.  What I meant (and didn't make clear) was the media trying to paint it as "two bored soldiers in a tent".  The Jarhead Defence comment was in reference to the movie, where they have been sitting in the desert for a long time, buddy gets loaded drunk, busted down to Pte and then freaks on his platoon mate with the "spn pointed at his head and ready" making him repeat the "this is my wpn" lines. 

Ok gotcha.Understand and agree.The media is painting a picture that to the people whom haven't been there.Unfortunately that is gospel in their eyes...as the media told them.And we both know the difference.

If it doesn't get too far off topic, why did your mag have to go back on the pistol? Its pretty much SOP to keep a mag off of any weapon while on any CF aircraft.  Or is this an example from a deployment?

An example of anywhere a pistol is used.It's an example of proper weapon drill's.After you allow the action forward you can remove the full mag and put it away.I respect my weapon and was in no way putting that rusty dirty empty mag attached to the clearing bay into my sidearm.No way.

Again this shows an example of people not having a full understanding of a weapons system.Problem being some people deployed due to "tradeism" can carry around a pistol so it isnt as ackward to go to timmies,but have zero knowledge of how the weapon system works.

Greymatter just a question I would like for you to answer seriously.have you ever wore a 9mm?Not trying to dogpile,but I would think a snr nco must have had one on at one point?

IMHO all soldiers should have a full understanding of weapons....A infantryman should be a freaking expert. (disclaimer...not that any other soldier should be less professional...but we all know...)

 

[1feral1]

To move the action forward.

You can do it without a mag - if you have REALLY long fingers - but most of us normal sized folks use a mag.

Australia removed the mag safety in a force wide mod several years ago, hence ending this problem. The only admin for this was a rewrite of a para in the pam, and a re-teach on handling lectures.

 

[Roy Harding]

Australia removed the mag safety in a force wide mod several years ago, hence ending this problem. The only admin for this was a rewrite of a para in the pam, and a re-teach on handling lectures.

I don't think I'm following you, Wes.  How does one move the action forward without a mag (or long fingers)?

 

[Fusaki]

I don't think I'm following you, Wes.  How does one move the action forward without a mag (or long fingers)?

The Browning Hi-Power has a mag safety: When you pull the trigger without a mag on, the action won't fire.  Because of this, our unload drill requires us to either replace the mag or depress the mag safety manually my sticking our fingers in the magwell in order to fire the action and confirm that the weapon is indeed clear of rounds in the chamber.

Wes is saying that the Australian army has modified the Browning Hi-Powers so that the mag safety has been removed: after removing the mag and inspecting the chamber, you can fire the weapon in a safe direction without having to replace the mag.  The makes the clearing procedure essentially the same as what we do with the C7.

 

[Roy Harding]

...
Wes is saying that the Australian army has modified the Browning Hi-Powers so that the mag safety has been removed: after removing the mag and inspecting the chamber, you can fire the weapon in a safe direction without having to replace the mag.  The makes the clearing procedure essentially the same as what we do with the C7.

Thank you.  It's clear now.  (Pun intended)

 

[helpup]

I will qualify for you as I knew the individual as well.

My own bad for bringing it up, I did not want T's name brought up. What is done is done.  However I didnt say that he pleaded guilty.  He did not however try to lie about what had happened. It was a automatic movement carried out with the Wpn in the improper state.  It shouldnt of happened and it did. The direction of T's barrel should not of been pointing where it was for a releasing the spring, but it was.  This happened despite the fact that our CDO did really well in not having ND's on deployment.

The actions that T did prior to the wpn firing I have watched others throughout my Career do in a moment of not paying attention to what they are doing and just " going through the motions".  Those I have caught for the most part have been stopped prior to firing.  Those I didnt stop in time were at a clearing bay and did not catch it in time.

Many Clearance bays also use the 9mm Mag ( with-out guts in it) to get the action forward. I cant say I am a fan of them personally but I understand the reasons. 

Elf PM in bound

 

[Old Sweat]

It was my unfortunate duty to review the investigation for this incident and prepare comments for the DCDS. It was a tragedy, but it also was negligent performance of duty.

 

[Greymatters]

After you allow the action forward you can remove the full mag and put it away.

This what I was thinking of but thought the poster meant something else.  I misinterpretted what was said, thinking the safety drills had been done and then the mag put back on prior to getting on the aircraft, and was wondering why... 

Greymatter just a question I would like for you to answer seriously.have you ever wore a 9mm?Not trying to dogpile,but I would think a snr nco must have had one on at one point?

Its a valid point - see my PM.

 

[X-mo-1979]

This what I was thinking of but thought the poster meant something else.  I misinterpretted what was said, thinking the safety drills had been done and then the mag put back on prior to getting on the aircraft, and was wondering why... 


Its a valid point - see my PM.

Cheers

 

[Greymatters]

My question answered, not applicable to this situation...

 

[helpup]

It was my unfortunate duty to review the investigation for this incident and prepare comments for the DCDS. It was a tragedy, but it also was negligent performance of duty.

No arguments there OS, but I can't stress enough the conduct of the accussed does not compare to the recent events.

 

[mariomike]

"Soldier needs to be forgiven"
By PETER WORTHINGTON
Toronto Sun: 17th August 2009
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/peter_worthington/2009/08/17/10483271-sun.html

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Speaking for myself and only myself, I DO hope Cpl Wilcox does time.  I couldn't disagree more with first paragraph in the article.

So, Cpl Wilcox was found guilty of Criminal negligence causing death.  But Mr Worthington states:

Anyway you cut it, Cpl. Wilcox is not a criminal.

even though his first line is:

Although he's been found guilty of "criminal negligence causing death,"

He IS a criminal, he was found guilty, he should do time.

He pulled the trigger that ended a fellow soldiers' life and he did it with his weapon which shouldn't have even been loaded.

Guilty as charged, he should consider himself lucky he only got what he got.

Time for reporters to stop trying to put a twist that doesn't exist on the story.

 

[old medic]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090909/wilcox_sentencing_090909/20090909?hub=TopStories

Sentencing hearing to begin for Canadian reservist


The Canadian Press

SYDNEY, N.S. -- A sentencing hearing is expected to begin today in Cape Breton for a young Canadian reservist convicted in the 2007 shooting death of a friend and fellow soldier.

Cpl. Matthew Wilcox of Glace Bay, N.S., was found guilty in July of criminal negligence causing death in the shooting of Cpl. Kevin Megeney.

Wilcox, 24, was also convicted of neglect of duty for firing his Browning 9-mm at Megeney's chest in their tent at Kandahar Airfield on March 6, 2007.

Megeney, a 25-year-old reservist from Stellarton, N.S., died in a trauma unit 30 minutes after he was shot.

During the military trial in Sydney, N.S., the prosecution argued the two men were playing "quick draw," while Wilcox testified he shot in self-defence, believing that somebody was pointing a gun at his back.

The maximum sentence for criminal negligence causing death is life in prison, but the prosecution and defence have said they are in talks for a lesser sentence.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Hope he gets life.
Cpl Wilcox is a disgusting excuse of a professional.

For you law experts,how long does sentencing usually take?Is it a drawn out process?

I guess the question would be will I be angry at the light sentence later today or in the future?

 

[dapaterson]

The short answer is:  it depends.  Both the prosecution and defence will make representations to the court, comparing this case to other precedents and explaining how it differs / why the sentence should be more/less/the same as those prior cases.

The judge then decides based o tnhe submissions - or may request further information.

From the news reports, it appears there may be a joint submission on sentence - and judges rarely deviate from joint submissions, as you're guaranteed an appeal by one or both parties.

The judge can make an immediate decision, but will usually take a day or two to assess the presentations, organize his or her thoughts, and then present a coherent conclusion.

 

[dapaterson]

There are apparently three days erserved for sentencing arguments:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/09/09/ns-wilcox-megeney-sentencing.html

More info at:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5g5Yxep9bvvQNUKnmubDtO50bh49g