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Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS

ENGINEERS WIFE said:
Seems to me like he f#*cked up royally and instead of just saying sorry, I f#*cked up, and taking the consequences he's trying to justify shooting his friend.
There's a difference between court process and how we do things in the CF. In a traditional CoC situation, we're taught to assume complete responsibility for our actions and trust in our CoC to understand things in their context and dole out an appropriate punishment if warranted.

In a court case, by contrast, there's a prosecutor employed for the sole purpose of trying to get you imprisoned for as long as possible; if you just "mea culpa" without making any kind of further explanation, they'll lock you up and throw away the key because you didn't provide a defence of yourself. The "mercy of the court" only works if the court understands why you did what you did.

Wilcox isn't trying to get himself off by saying he shot his mate the way he did - he's saying that what he did was accidental (manslaughter) rather than intentional or criminally negligent (first or second degree murder). Obviously no one (least of all Wilcox himself, I suspect) is going to say it's okay that he shot his buddy, but there's no need to excoriate him for providing a legal defence. He's going to see time either way.
 
Jammer said:
I've seen so much of this sh*t from reservists that aren't properly trained or held to account when they are called out.

This post is plain wrong!

I've seen plenty of regs and militia that are just as big as idiots. People are people.

I won't say anymore.

OWDU

EDITed for clarity, not changing the flavour of this post.
 
Infanteer,
Read my post again.

I read it again, and I still think you're off.

This issue has nothing to do with Wilcox being a reservist.  It's about the discipline expected of soldiers. By the time a soldier is deployed, there is nothing to distinguish a reg force guy from a reservist.
 
Jammer said:
Ack,
...but it is an open forum and although we are not privy to the inner sanctum of this trial we should open this up for healthy debate.
I'm not tarring all reservists with the same brush,...not summer PLQ wunderkinds.

I would truly be surprised if the court accepted that defence.  As for the above it's rubbish too.  The two D&S' I saw ran a very tight ship, took their roll seriously and executed their missions with professionalism and as a result brought us pretty much everything we needed.  The NCO's certainly were not shy about sorting discipline problems.  Possibly some extra man management was required but IMO it is just as likely a result of being in KAF as it would be a result of a soldier's relative age or component.

The PRes have the same QR&O's as the RegF and last I checked we're on the same side. 
 
Jammer said:
I've seen so much of this sh*t from reservists that aren't properly trained or held to account when they are called out.

Jammer said:
Ack,
...but it is an open forum and although we are not privy to the inner sanctum of this trial we should open this up for healthy debate.
I'm not tarring all reservists with the same brush, but lets be honest the D and S Platoon on KAF was pretty much a reservist run CoC. I have seen time and time again 18-19 and 20 yr olds who just don't have the maturity that their reg force peers have.
Not to say that regs don't have discipline probs by any stretch, but that have more consistant supervision and tighter control by more experienced leaders, not summer PLQ wunderkinds.

I'm going to take a another crack at the point I was trying to make sans having a nerve hit.
Jammer I really respect your service record and you've obviously must have worked with reservists a lot in your career but I still can't even come close to agreeing with your comments.

Your first comment about reservists not being properly trained. If that were the case, who is responsible for training reservists going overseas, their home unit or the regular force?  Work up training is now in excess (stupidly) of a year. A year isn't long enough for regular force types to bring their reserve counterparts up to speed?

Arguing the maturity level of 20 year old privates doesn't jive. There is no difference between them.
I've been overseas to Afghanistan with a full reservist platoon twice including a few months D&S.

At the platoon level at least half of our platoon were university and college educated, among them professionals such as police officers, firemen, paramedics electricians teachers, even a doctor.  More than half the troops being PLQ qualified.
One platoon walked away with 2 medals of bravery a meritorious service medal and bla bla BBQs and meetings with generals to the flavor of 'wow how are you doing so well being reservists?!' I'm told we had the most contacts out of any C/S including battlegroup which at the very least means we weren't picking our nose feeling balls on gate the whole time.

To address the PLQ summerkids comment. Running concurrently with my PLQ course was a regular force course.  On the weekends they would dress up in stealth suits with masks on and run through out tent lines flipping cots and trashing shit. The whole summer we had to lock everything we had in our cars or in a sea can so it wouldn't get ruined or stolen on weekend leave. They would drive by our course and shout out go home fucking tunes rev the shit out of their go fast cars and peel away. Future leaders indeed.

We've all seen troops doing stupid things when their bored overseas. It's not that we're not professional, it happens. You're right in that it's a leadership responsibility to combat it, and it does get combated. My (reserve) platoon WO was terrifying. You step out of line a little and you might as well burn a Canadian flag on July 1st on parliament hill, this guy didn't piss around with discipline.

How would you stop to troops from playing quick draw (or whatever) while off duty in their own tent? Tricky.

It's a challenge being based in KAF when it comes to finding training and stuff to keep troops busy. For example, we were told we weren't even allowed to use the ranges there for gunfighter training. Only units coming in and special forces were allowed on the range.
You go to the medics or rad ops and ask for a couple of soldiers for a day or two to give your platoon some extra training and see the faces they make.

 
You go to the medics or rad ops and ask for a couple of soldiers for a day or two to give your platoon some extra training and see the faces they make.


Really???
Haven't seen it yet that when a unit has requested refresher trg that they were turned down...speaking as a Rad Op.

I stand by my opinion based on my experience
 
Jammer said:
Ack,
...but it is an open forum and although we are not privy to the inner sanctum of this trial we should open this up for healthy debate.
I'm not tarring all reservists with the same brush, but lets be honest the D and S Platoon on KAF was pretty much a reservist run CoC. I have seen time and time again 18-19 and 20 yr olds who just don't have the maturity that their reg force peers have.
Not to say that regs don't have discipline probs by any stretch, but that have more consistant supervision and tighter control by more experienced leaders, not summer PLQ wunderkinds.

Another shot like that gets you on the warning ladder. Both sides have their fuckups. Let it go, and don't try bring it up again.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
My 2 Cents, I get trying to not go to jail.  ( dont always agree with it but I get it) However his story based on my experience is pure and utter B.S. Full stop.  There is no way that jives with where he was and the normal routine he should of been following WRT Wpns handling and states.  I do not know if they were playing a "game" nor do I care,  This guy's story does not wash with me, and by his Trg it is the wrong reaction for the time and place even if the events had of went that way.

As for beating on the Reserves, that was uncalled for.  A idiot is an idiot regardless of his reg or reserve designation.  I have worked with Reg and Reserve who were Junk.  I have worked with others who know thier jobs cold, and can perform in any situation.  There may be a discrepancy in Trg but that has been improved.  There are gaps though and for those gaps I will show you Reg force personnel who can be just as bad for what ever reason. 

Or do you want to blame Solmolia on a reservist ( and yes we had them there as well.) 

There are differances with the Reg and Reserves, they are NOT as pronounced as they use to be.  And frankly it falls on to the Reg Force that any reservist deploying or not is as highly trained as the CF can make them.
 
Next person that brings up the Reg vs Res thing, for, against, whatever, goes straight to C&P. It's not what this thread is about, nor should it ever be.

Milnet.ca Staff

 
I am not looking to get banned, but the training for ALL PERS on that serial was extensive, I was there. 

Within a WEEK of this incident there was another, without rounds that resulted in 5 Courts Martial (by election). THe HORSEPLAY issue is real in many scenarios, and this case truly is for the court to decide.  Even in a forum like this, we should be looking at the present case as it unfolds, not making decisions before they are released.

My thoughts.
 
I made my mind up based on his own statement of the events and I stand by calling it B.S  the whole horseplay issue is something all CoC need to address and I like to think we do a fairly good job of it. 
 
I believe the issue here boils down to training in weapons safety. I have always been taught right from day One in the CF, that you only point a weapon at someone you want to kill. The second lesson was always ensure your weapon is unloaded when its not absolutely required to be loaded. Failure to follow both of these important safety points resulted in the death of Cpl. Megeney, and I do believe Cpl Wilcox should be held accountable. Even when playing around like Rambo with your weapons (everyone's done it at least once), training and common sense should be kicking in to ensure they are not loaded and not pointed at someone.
 
As not one person is standing up for Cpl Wilcox, let me add my two cents.  I am sure he knows the real story.  Hopefully he feels remorse. In his mind he thinks it was an accident.  As for the lame defence, that belongs to his lawyer.  I was once charged with a major crime and had nothing to do with my type of defence.  The lawyer picks the defence.

Cpl Wilcox is only now doing what most of us would, trusting his lawyer to get him the best result from a bad mistake.  Honestly, how many of you just take the punishment give and not try to get it reduced.  When you get a week of extras do you not try to get out of it.  Well he is doing the same thing.
 
Take the extras and smile in my case, 'cause a week of duty and free mess meals is infinitely better than pushing my luck and getting 14 days on defaulters.  ;D
 
Anytime I got extras, I gladly accepted them, without dickering. The alternatives were always worse.
 
Harley Sailor said:
As for the lame defence, that belongs to his lawyer.  I was once charged with a major crime and had nothing to do with my type of defence.  The lawyer picks the defence.

No.  The lawyer works for the client  The lawyer may make suggestions and provide information, but at the end of the day it is the accused who decides.
 
recceguy said:
Anytime I got extras, I gladly accepted them, without dickering. The alternatives were always worse.

And how do you know they were worse if you did not try to dicker.  In my 30 years I can count the number of people who just took it and did not ask for a better deal, at least the first couple of times.  I even know army guys who have gone to the MIR so that their extras would be lights.
 
Harley Sailor said:
And how do you know they were worse if you did not try to dicker.  In my 30 years I can count the number of people who just took it and did not ask for a better deal, at least the first couple of times.  I even know army guys who have gone to the MIR so that their extras would be lights.

Because in my 40 years I've never been afraid to take responsibility for my actions.
 
dapaterson said:
No.  The lawyer works for the client  The lawyer may make suggestions and provide information, but at the end of the day it is the accused who decides.

Have you been there?  When you are accused you are scared and unsure of what to do.  Your lawyer tells you how he plans to defend you and you except it or find a new lawyer. At the end of the day the accused excepts the lawyers advice because he knows best.  If you are smart enough to tell your lawyer how to defend you then you are smart enough not to get into the problem in the first place.
 
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