Court Martial discussion (merged)

[George Wallace]

Extra 6 months pay and pension...

Would that not depend of whether he beat the Charge or not?

 

[Scoobs]

As the primary charge is drunkenness, you see where the main focus is.  As well, I'm not sure if you know this, but you don't have to actually be drunk to have this charge brought against you.  All that needs to happen is alcohol + an incident = possible charge and most likely a conviction.  I was the Assisting Officer of a young fellow a few years back and he was found guilty of drunkenness even though he wasn't drunk (it didn't help that he knocked his room mate out over a video game).

I agree with many of the posters here, there may be more to this story here and that is what the CM will determine. 

My personal thoughts:

1. This took way too long to bring about, whether or not the former member was getting out or trying to avoid prosecution.  No matter the circumstances, this delay, although legal, does not shine a good light on the whole system/process.

2. A WO should be held to a higher standard, after all, he was a Senior NCO who was supposed to be setting the example.  Once again, let's pass judgement on why he was charged and why this wasn't handled in a different way after we see how the CM goes, along with the evidence presented.

3. The purpose of the Code of Service Discipline is not to satisfy public perception, like some posters have commented about.  The purpose is to maintain good order and discipline.  Although I'm not a fan of how long this has taken, it is well within the C of C's purvey to proceed with charges against this former member (people have been calling him a civilian.  He's a former member.  This is a very important distinction.)

4. The WO mentioning that the alcohol was a bad mix with his medication.  Ya think?

5. I'd like to offer more of my opinion, but I need to suck back and follow my own advice, let's wait to see what evidence is shown at the CM and then pass judgement.

As an aside, while in KAF almost 9 years ago now I was walking through the tent area and noticed a Cpl without his shirt on (I knew who he was and previously had no issues with him).  That was no biggie, but the fact that he literally had his pants at his thighs with other countries' troops walking by (including male and female personnel) was not acceptable to me.  I politely told him that I understood about the shirt, but that he needed to pull his pants up.  I even explained to him why (due to the other personnel walking by), even though I definitely did not need to.  It would have ended there, but he chose to give a snide comment back (I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was most definitely insubordinate).  He did pull his pants up, but I had to have a conversation with his unit's Adjudant.  His unit CSM wanted to charge him, but I was okay with an apology.  I'm sure that he got extras or some other sort of discipline, but to me that was the end of it.  Remember, this was for a Cpl, not a WO.

My two cents....

 

[medicineman]

I must state however that I'm dismayed that he trotted out the "PTSD drugs made me do it" defence.

I always love that one, especially since there is a little label on many of those bottles that specifically tell you to avoid drinking...

I agree with the fact that this dude is a now retired WO, so should be held to higher standard.  I also seem to recall that when I was a WO, there was a little leeway in how I was able to conduct myself to actual officers, due to the relationships we were required to work in.  I've (and I'm sure many other of us here as well have) come so close to that fine line on many occasions that needed photo replay to make sure I stayed onside - I/we usually picked the time and place to have that little convo to ensure decorum was maintained.  This dude MAY very well have stepped over that line. 

Someone (Ballz IIRC) mentioned his CSM/RSM should have muckled onto him and got him a cab out of there...I remember being off the BOS list for my last 6 months in my last Battalion because of someone that was playing pokey chest, drunk, in the mess with the RSM.  He kindly and calmly escorted this fellow to a cab and was going to ignore it...until the guy got out the other side and came back at him.  Whose to say this didn't happen and that's why it went up?  I had a platoon Sgt many moons ago that grabbed our female DCO's butt in our field mess (yeah, that long ago when were allowed to drink in bivouac) not once, but twice in the same evening.  Never seen someone posted so fast in my life - was banished to RSS land without any hope of promotion ever again nor another real job.  Once people have drunk enough to have the common sense safety catch go from "S" to "A", they honestly are going to get what they deserve unfortunately, be it a five knuckle hangover, torn ACL (saw that happen to someone that went full retard), a couple torn ligaments in their ankle (your's truly) resulting in much time on light duty, not to mention loss of respect of some of my betters, to someone getting charged for playing pokey chest with the wrong person in front of the wrong people. 

We can speculate all we like, but, until the new trial date in March, all we can do is sit back, wait and when the time comes -  op: and watch.

MM

 

[PuckChaser]

If his excuse is PTSD drugs, and the prescription from a MO says no alcohol, is the issue now not drunkenness, but disobeying a lawful command from the MO? If he's going to make excuses, there's ways to turn them back on him.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It's a bit of a catch 22 when we have a culture of have another drink, pussy.

I'd rather spend 24 hours on duty than go to a mess function for a couple hours. They're like mine fields now.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I have yet to attend one and I intend to keep it that way.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Please share how you accomplished this feat

 

[jollyjacktar]

Just lucky, I guess.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Whatever happened to "What happens in the Mess, stays in the Mess"?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

That has never been true, especially in mixed rank mess functions.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I was voluntold to serve at plenty of "grown up" mess dinners in both of those upper messes, and the bahaviour I witnessed at all of them would have got us lesser mortals a month of CB, or worse.  Mess dinner shenanigans gets covered up all the time, I think someone was out for this guy.

 

[Pusser]

It's a bit of a catch 22 when we have a culture of have another drink, *****.

I'd rather spend 24 hours on duty than go to a mess function for a couple hours. They're like mine fields now.

That culture is long dead.  No one is forced to drink and anyone who cannot have a drink without turning into an a**hole, should refrain from having one.  Pretty simple that.  Every mess dinner for the last 20 years has offered a temperate option.

As for avoiding mess functions for being minefields, that's your loss.  I seek them out and even organize them when I can (it's a surefire way to get the kind I like).  You're paying for the mess so you might as well enjoy it.  If you don't like what your mess is doing with your money, then get involved and help steer things.

More to the point of this thread, however, is that I too suspect that there is much more to this than what we've seen in the National Post.  Keep in mind that although calling an officer names may seem relatively minor, depending on the circumstances, the implications can indeed be much more serious.  A warrant officer who is openly contemptuous of his/her superiors with impunity can cause serious damage to an entire unit.  If others look to their "superior" and see him/her disrespecting an officer, what's to stop them from doing the same?  No CO can afford to have his/her junior officers (who help the CO do his job) disrespected by the senior NCOs and warrant officers any more than he/she can afford to have the senior NCOs and warrant officers disrespected by his/her officers.  Disrespect and insubordination can be infectious and disastrous.

I always get a kick out of how Michel Drapeau is always described as an "expert" in military law.  Do folks realize that he never served as a legal officer in the CF?  He only became a lawyer after he left.

 

[jollyjacktar]

By all means, if you want to be a mess dinner maven then do dig in and enjoy.  They are, however, not for everyone, persons such as myself would rather never have the joy of attending in our lives.  I understand that mess membership is mandatory but participation in the activities should be at the member's option.

 

[X Royal]

I don't know who is giving you legal advice, but you should fire them.

Care to explain this George?
If a provincial offense of public intoxication is laid and the charged offender does not respond to the charge and is out of province, they will never issue a arrest warrant outside of the province the charge is laid in.
Many offenders with far more serious charges get a buy due to the fact it would cost more to return the offender than the charges will produce fines. Warrants for arrest generally include a return distance of "X" km's, province wide, country wide or even world wide.
If a current serving member the CF just may stick their nose in though.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I was voluntold to serve at plenty of "grown up" mess dinners in both of those upper messes, and the bahaviour I witnessed at all of them would have got us lesser mortals a month of CB, or worse.  Mess dinner shenanigans gets covered up all the time, I think someone was out for this guy.

At our officers mess two members got caught fucking that weren't married to each other. Nothing but Keyser Soze shit happened after that. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

What?  They started shooting everyone and burned the place down?

 

[Blackadder1916]

More to the point of this thread, however, is that I too suspect that there is much more to this than what we've seen in the National Post.  Keep in mind that although calling an officer names may seem relatively minor, depending on the circumstances, the implications can indeed be much more serious.  A warrant officer who is openly contemptuous of his/her superiors with impunity can cause serious damage to an entire unit.  If others look to their "superior" and see him/her disrespecting an officer, what's to stop them from doing the same?  No CO can afford to have his/her junior officers (who help the CO do his job) disrespected by the senior NCOs and warrant officers any more than he/she can afford to have the senior NCOs and warrant officers disrespected by his/her officers.  Disrespect and insubordination can be infectious and disastrous.

Exactly.  Baah! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeF1JO7Ki8E

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

No but that wouldn't surprise me. We all know the shit that happens in the officers mess would never fly at any other. By Keyser Soze I mean "puff then the situation was gone"

 

[MJP]

More to the point of this thread, however, is that I too suspect that there is much more to this than what we've seen in the National Post. Keep in mind that although calling an officer names may seem relatively minor, depending on the circumstances, the implications can indeed be much more serious.  A warrant officer who is openly contemptuous of his/her superiors with impunity can cause serious damage to an entire unit.  If others look to their "superior" and see him/her disrespecting an officer, what's to stop them from doing the same?  No CO can afford to have his/her junior officers (who help the CO do his job) disrespected by the senior NCOs and warrant officers any more than he/she can afford to have the senior NCOs and warrant officers disrespected by his/her officers.  Disrespect and insubordination can be infectious and disastrous.

Aye,

I talked to my friends at 2 Svc who were at the dinner and it is more than some thin skinned officer making waves.  As with every news story on the CF there is one side, the other and the truth.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Care to explain this George?
If a provincial offense of public intoxication is laid and the charged offender does not respond to the charge and is out of province, they will never issue a arrest warrant outside of the province the charge is laid in.
Many offenders with far more serious charges get a buy due to the fact it would cost more to return the offender than the charges will produce fines. Warrants for arrest generally include a return distance of "X" km's, province wide, country wide or even world wide.
If a current serving member the CF just may stick their nose in though.

Many provinces (and some states) have agreements between them that deal with this kind of stuff. You get a ticket in B.C. and the information is sent to your home provinces DMV. When it comes to renew your plate or drivers license, the DMV will refuse to renew until you settle the outstanding fine.