Counter recruiting
- Thread starter Remius
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I really like checking this site out occaisonally for things like this; as it does interest me, despite not being in the military.
Talk about relying WAY too much on some of the stuff happening in the US. The entire videos section is stuff about the USA and Iraq. These groups have been around in the USA for years, the difference being they actually have some valid points.
Yes the Stop-Loss policy being used for the War With Iraq would be enough to discourage many from joining the military. I strongly disagree with this whole rule; BUT I don't think anything even close to it exists in Canada (although Hillier really needs to be more careful with his choice of words in front of the media)
They question recruiting. I don't think Canadian recruiting is anything like the USA's. I have never seen a recruiter in a mall or a school in my life. And you guys would know this better than me, but I don't believe they have quotas?
In one video the guy talks about how he was sent to Iraq after dislocating discs in his back during training. Seeing some people talk about some of the medical discharge reasons, I really can't see that happening with the Canadian Forces. He also talks about how the military dentists pulled teeth by taking a piece of his jaw with it. Again, I doubt this would happen.
One video has staff seargents literally hitting and punching new recruits. Now I may be really out of the loop on this, but I thought that was illegal?
Then there was that 80,000 recruiters thing. Anyone with a tiny bit of common sense can see that this number is obviously taken out of context consdiering that is aroudn the size of the entire CF (I immediately assumed that he had meant "every person is a recruiter" despite never hearing Hillier's quote).
They imply the military will completely take advantage of you. I'm sure things aren't perfect, but seeing as how reservists are not forced into war, and they are reluctant to send regular forces on a second tour of duty in Afghanistan shows me this isn't the USA.
This site is obviously poeple protesting the military in general as a way to protest the War in Afghanistan. But they are relying way too much on another countries military, misquotes, quotes out of context, and grave images (showing a graveyard really accomplishes nothing, people joining the military know the risk), to be effective to anyone looking at the site with a clear mind.
Talk about relying WAY too much on some of the stuff happening in the US. The entire videos section is stuff about the USA and Iraq. These groups have been around in the USA for years, the difference being they actually have some valid points.
Yes the Stop-Loss policy being used for the War With Iraq would be enough to discourage many from joining the military. I strongly disagree with this whole rule; BUT I don't think anything even close to it exists in Canada (although Hillier really needs to be more careful with his choice of words in front of the media)
They question recruiting. I don't think Canadian recruiting is anything like the USA's. I have never seen a recruiter in a mall or a school in my life. And you guys would know this better than me, but I don't believe they have quotas?
In one video the guy talks about how he was sent to Iraq after dislocating discs in his back during training. Seeing some people talk about some of the medical discharge reasons, I really can't see that happening with the Canadian Forces. He also talks about how the military dentists pulled teeth by taking a piece of his jaw with it. Again, I doubt this would happen.
One video has staff seargents literally hitting and punching new recruits. Now I may be really out of the loop on this, but I thought that was illegal?
Then there was that 80,000 recruiters thing. Anyone with a tiny bit of common sense can see that this number is obviously taken out of context consdiering that is aroudn the size of the entire CF (I immediately assumed that he had meant "every person is a recruiter" despite never hearing Hillier's quote).
They imply the military will completely take advantage of you. I'm sure things aren't perfect, but seeing as how reservists are not forced into war, and they are reluctant to send regular forces on a second tour of duty in Afghanistan shows me this isn't the USA.
This site is obviously poeple protesting the military in general as a way to protest the War in Afghanistan. But they are relying way too much on another countries military, misquotes, quotes out of context, and grave images (showing a graveyard really accomplishes nothing, people joining the military know the risk), to be effective to anyone looking at the site with a clear mind.
Once again life's loosers on the left are at it. As I have stated before in other posts, these people are mentally ill, they hate evrything about Canada and our society, not just our military. These people are nobodys, nothings. They want to control what we think, say see on TV, what cars we drive, what business can do. They are against freedom, unless it is there version of freedom.
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I checked out a couple of these videos and parts are very subtle in their disinformation. Yes, it's true the US armed forces have been using the stop loss, but that's part of our system and it isn't any big secret. Everybody enlists and incurs an eight year committment. Hell, as a military retiree, I'm subject to involuntary recall until age 60. These guys with a beef about getting stop lossed may have a personal gripe (maybe well founded) but they were volunteers.
I recruited in Ocenaside, CA from 92-95. I don't ever recall forcing somebody's hand onto the enlistment contract. Yes, recruiters have monthly missions and are held accountable for success or failure, and some cross the line into recruiting improprieties. When they are caught, they are dealt with, usually harshly under the UCMJ. The trouble is, you cannot tell a kid everything that is going to happen to him in the Army, good or bad. A lot of kids confuse this when the going gets tough and their lack of fortitude starts to show. Instead of thinking, "I better dig in here," they say, "that f***** recruiter lied to me."
So far as that moron talking about his teeth, I think that is just flat-out stupid. Military dentists use exactly the same techniques as their civilian counterparts. I had fillings done 26 years ago by a Navy dentist and they're still good to go.
I recruited in Ocenaside, CA from 92-95. I don't ever recall forcing somebody's hand onto the enlistment contract. Yes, recruiters have monthly missions and are held accountable for success or failure, and some cross the line into recruiting improprieties. When they are caught, they are dealt with, usually harshly under the UCMJ. The trouble is, you cannot tell a kid everything that is going to happen to him in the Army, good or bad. A lot of kids confuse this when the going gets tough and their lack of fortitude starts to show. Instead of thinking, "I better dig in here," they say, "that f***** recruiter lied to me."
So far as that moron talking about his teeth, I think that is just flat-out stupid. Military dentists use exactly the same techniques as their civilian counterparts. I had fillings done 26 years ago by a Navy dentist and they're still good to go.
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I read the PDF's on the ACT site last night, the one's about organizing a Counter Recruitment campaign.
career_radio_checker noted the letter from a Corrie Sakuluk to the York U Exclaibur on the 'economic coercion' idea. This idea is also strongly reinforced in the PDF's I refer to above.
Perhaps it has some credence.
However I suspect that these folks are grapsing at a very slender reed to infer that the CF is displacing huge numbers of students into the CF through Universtiy training programs.
I am wondering, can anyone in the know give us a quick run down on the numbers involved in Regular Force University Entrance Plans, as presently constituted? I don't think we need to delve to deeply into the Reserve Education Funding plans as we all know since Reservists are a limited liability contract the 'free education-then fight' argument holds no water.
I hope someone can come up with this, I think it'll go a long way to debunking some of ACTs arguments.
career_radio_checker noted the letter from a Corrie Sakuluk to the York U Exclaibur on the 'economic coercion' idea. This idea is also strongly reinforced in the PDF's I refer to above.
Perhaps it has some credence.
However I suspect that these folks are grapsing at a very slender reed to infer that the CF is displacing huge numbers of students into the CF through Universtiy training programs.
I am wondering, can anyone in the know give us a quick run down on the numbers involved in Regular Force University Entrance Plans, as presently constituted? I don't think we need to delve to deeply into the Reserve Education Funding plans as we all know since Reservists are a limited liability contract the 'free education-then fight' argument holds no water.
I hope someone can come up with this, I think it'll go a long way to debunking some of ACTs arguments.
wow. 80 000 recruiters?!!?! Pull the troops out of afghanistan, we need them recruiting! In fact, mobilize the reserves we need them recruiting too!
Obviously these people have a learning disability because they can't distinguish the number of projected recruiters from the NUMBER OF REG & RES in the CF TOTAL. Nor can they quote properly.
These people are stupid and ignorant. I only wish that combination caused spontaneous combustion.
Obviously these people have a learning disability because they can't distinguish the number of projected recruiters from the NUMBER OF REG & RES in the CF TOTAL. Nor can they quote properly.
These people are stupid and ignorant. I only wish that combination caused spontaneous combustion.
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OP, thanks for the link to the counter-recruiting website, very informative.
I saw that there is a protest planned for Banff this weekend. I know the population in Banff is very similar to that of a university, lots of young kids, many of them from other parts of the world. Want to see if this guy can organize a pissup in a brewery.
Anyone else interested in watching this, come out at 3pm to the Gazebo in Banff and lets see if we can put a bit of fact into this guy's fiction.
Cheers
I saw that there is a protest planned for Banff this weekend. I know the population in Banff is very similar to that of a university, lots of young kids, many of them from other parts of the world. Want to see if this guy can organize a pissup in a brewery.
Anyone else interested in watching this, come out at 3pm to the Gazebo in Banff and lets see if we can put a bit of fact into this guy's fiction.
Cheers
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bcbarman said:
I know, I just noticed that there is one in the town my parents live in. I am visiting this weekend, I might take a little stroll to the library where they are..
And then take into account the number of students in ROTP that would have been able to afford to go to university regardless, those that would have qualified for scholarships. Those that wanted to join the military regardless, reservists who Component tranferred into ROTP etc etc. Not counting all those reservists not forced to go overseas that get a partial tuition reimbursement.
Some coersion. :
Some coersion. :
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Thanks for the 500 number. I have to go play in the mud for a few days, when I get back I'll try to work with that number and play nasty with it. My recommendation, stock up on tin foil....
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I have spent the past few days reading everything on their site. I've done background research on their points/arguments and I honestly think that most of their assertions are based on faulty facts. The things that are true, are presented in a biased way that infers things that are untrue. On an amusing note, I honestly believe that the information on that website was simply edited for a Canadian context. The best examples of this is the pipeline accusation, and the cartoons which are about Iraq.
It makes me sad to see something so poorly constructed. I understand there are genuine and valid arguments against our involvement in Afghanistan, just as there are valid arguments in support of our involvement. (I personally support the mission) But I disapprove of poorly thought out, tendentious material. It is an insult to the intelligence of all who take the time to read it. On the plus side, I've added to my counter points against the Objection crowd. (And now I can quote their own material's factual errors - I loved how they denied Al-quida's involvement in Sept 11)
It makes me sad to see something so poorly constructed. I understand there are genuine and valid arguments against our involvement in Afghanistan, just as there are valid arguments in support of our involvement. (I personally support the mission) But I disapprove of poorly thought out, tendentious material. It is an insult to the intelligence of all who take the time to read it. On the plus side, I've added to my counter points against the Objection crowd. (And now I can quote their own material's factual errors - I loved how they denied Al-quida's involvement in Sept 11)
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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Short version= protest fizzles, likely protesters were to lazy to get out of bed.... ;D
Recruitment protests recruit few supporters in three Canadian cities
October 27, 2006 - 0:13 pm
FREDERICTON (CP) - Planned protests at Canadian Forces recruiting centres in Fredericton, Ottawa and Vancouver on Friday failed to get the attention organizers were looking for.
Youth groups opposed to the war in Afghanistan were hoping to discourage young people from joining the military, but only a handful of protesters turned out in each location.
In Ottawa, organizer Dylan Penner said the real goal was to bring attention to Operation Objection - which features protests planned for 35 cities across the country Saturday.
"In light of what we are seeing in Afghanistan, which is a war that we oppose and are calling for the troops to come home from, we see counter-recruitment as an important part of ending that war," said Penner.
In Fredericton, just four people turned out to talk with the media, and then left without attempting to speak with anyone entering the recruitment centre.
"Our efforts should be more focused on maintaining our national security versus being over there (in Afghanistan) in a war that we can't win.?.?.," said Charles Fournier.
Meanwhile, Tracy Glynn said she thinks the federal government should be investing in Canada's education system rather than putting more into the Department of National Defence.
"There will always be opposition to what the military is doing," said Lt. Adam Thompson, a Defence spokesman in Ottawa.
" But our main goal and focus is to try to make sure the Canadian public knows specifically what the military is doing in Afghanistan, and our role in reconstruction efforts." More than 2,000 Canadian troops are stationed in Afghanistan.
http://www.news1130.com/news/national/article.jsp?content=n102737A
Recruitment protests recruit few supporters in three Canadian cities
October 27, 2006 - 0:13 pm
FREDERICTON (CP) - Planned protests at Canadian Forces recruiting centres in Fredericton, Ottawa and Vancouver on Friday failed to get the attention organizers were looking for.
Youth groups opposed to the war in Afghanistan were hoping to discourage young people from joining the military, but only a handful of protesters turned out in each location.
In Ottawa, organizer Dylan Penner said the real goal was to bring attention to Operation Objection - which features protests planned for 35 cities across the country Saturday.
"In light of what we are seeing in Afghanistan, which is a war that we oppose and are calling for the troops to come home from, we see counter-recruitment as an important part of ending that war," said Penner.
In Fredericton, just four people turned out to talk with the media, and then left without attempting to speak with anyone entering the recruitment centre.
"Our efforts should be more focused on maintaining our national security versus being over there (in Afghanistan) in a war that we can't win.?.?.," said Charles Fournier.
Meanwhile, Tracy Glynn said she thinks the federal government should be investing in Canada's education system rather than putting more into the Department of National Defence.
"There will always be opposition to what the military is doing," said Lt. Adam Thompson, a Defence spokesman in Ottawa.
" But our main goal and focus is to try to make sure the Canadian public knows specifically what the military is doing in Afghanistan, and our role in reconstruction efforts." More than 2,000 Canadian troops are stationed in Afghanistan.
http://www.news1130.com/news/national/article.jsp?content=n102737A
Anyone notice a link they have to a story printed in York University's newspaper: http://www.excal.on.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2122&Itemid=2
Basically there was a (voluntary) frosh activity that involved learning about the military and doing some military type exercises (obstacle course, etc.). It doesn't sound like some secret recruiting plan, but just an activity (kind of like some NHL team this year went to an American Army Base for the "boot camp" experience for teambuiding)
And then here's a nice quote
" During last year's career fair in York Lanes on Sept. 29, two military recruitment officers were driven off by a group of protestors chanting: "Army out of Afghanistan, Army out of York."
Okay the War in Afghanistan is debateable. Right now I support it, since I still think there is a light at the end of the tunnel, someday I may change my mind. The point is, you can't ban employers from an event because you don't agree with them. Do we kick out Nike because of sweatshops? What about the oil companies because of the environment? What about Microsoft for some of its anti competition practices? Ford for laying off all those employees? ... There are very few truly ethical companies out there.
The only way I can see recruiting on campus as innapropriate is if they are being pushy and like "stalking" kids trying to get them to sign up. From how I understand it, they'd just be sitting at a booth giving information about the military. I also kind of agreed with one case I heard in the USA where the school didn't want recruiters on campus because they have a policy that any employers must not discriminate, which the US military does with "don't ask don't tell". But the Canadian Forces do not have any policy such as this.
This whole "no recuriters on campus" thing is ridiculous. These are university students, they won't be "tricked" into joining the military. The information should be available to them, as a military career could be a very rewarding career for some students.
And one other thing about the original site, they make it sound way too much like students are just joining the military to get a "college" education (using the word college again makes it seem like this was a site for the US). This is really only true in the reserves (who won't be forced into Afghanistan) and for ROTP potential officers. Besides, in Canada, education isn't THAT expensive and there are a lot of ways to help pay for it. I'm sure there's some people in the military for free or cheaper education, but most probably honestly want to try the career.
Basically there was a (voluntary) frosh activity that involved learning about the military and doing some military type exercises (obstacle course, etc.). It doesn't sound like some secret recruiting plan, but just an activity (kind of like some NHL team this year went to an American Army Base for the "boot camp" experience for teambuiding)
And then here's a nice quote
" During last year's career fair in York Lanes on Sept. 29, two military recruitment officers were driven off by a group of protestors chanting: "Army out of Afghanistan, Army out of York."
Okay the War in Afghanistan is debateable. Right now I support it, since I still think there is a light at the end of the tunnel, someday I may change my mind. The point is, you can't ban employers from an event because you don't agree with them. Do we kick out Nike because of sweatshops? What about the oil companies because of the environment? What about Microsoft for some of its anti competition practices? Ford for laying off all those employees? ... There are very few truly ethical companies out there.
The only way I can see recruiting on campus as innapropriate is if they are being pushy and like "stalking" kids trying to get them to sign up. From how I understand it, they'd just be sitting at a booth giving information about the military. I also kind of agreed with one case I heard in the USA where the school didn't want recruiters on campus because they have a policy that any employers must not discriminate, which the US military does with "don't ask don't tell". But the Canadian Forces do not have any policy such as this.
This whole "no recuriters on campus" thing is ridiculous. These are university students, they won't be "tricked" into joining the military. The information should be available to them, as a military career could be a very rewarding career for some students.
And one other thing about the original site, they make it sound way too much like students are just joining the military to get a "college" education (using the word college again makes it seem like this was a site for the US). This is really only true in the reserves (who won't be forced into Afghanistan) and for ROTP potential officers. Besides, in Canada, education isn't THAT expensive and there are a lot of ways to help pay for it. I'm sure there's some people in the military for free or cheaper education, but most probably honestly want to try the career.
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These are the same people i see everyday standing on a street corner with their backwards ball caps, passing around a big "Duby" and asking for handouts because their to damn lazy to go out and get a job. Lots of flapping gums but they don't have the "Balls" to back up their convictions.They'd rather hide behind their meanigless signs and cowardly chants rather than doing something meanigfull with their lives.
My daughter dated one of these losers a few months back, he had plenty to say about why we shouldn't be fighting the Americans war spewing from his lips but nothing inteligient to back it up with. he almost had her convinved until i set her straight and she told him to take a hike. It makes me sick to my stomach to think that i allowed one of these cowards in my home!!
My daughter dated one of these losers a few months back, he had plenty to say about why we shouldn't be fighting the Americans war spewing from his lips but nothing inteligient to back it up with. he almost had her convinved until i set her straight and she told him to take a hike. It makes me sick to my stomach to think that i allowed one of these cowards in my home!!
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retiredgrunt45 said:
No don't hold back, tell us how you really feel. :rofl:
I've heard some intelligent and valid points against our involvement in Afghanistan. I even read a few on the counter recruiting website. The fun part is, the ones that I've found who can structure a proper argument are the same ones who if you clearly state a detailed and logical argument for Afghanistan are quickly convinced. Personally I loosesome respect for people who can't back up their positions with a clear reasoned argument - with facts.
(regardless if they agree with me or not) I hate soundbyte politics, "No blood for Oil", "The Dixie chicks are traitors", "Get Canada out of Iraq".... all of those slogans I've heard, all of them are vapid.
