Cost of housing in Canada

[brihard]

Our largest cities, Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal are also in relatively milder climates. The only people who seem to tolerate the prairies in larger numbers are Ukrainians.

Just tossing a couple anecdotes in.

A month ago my wife and I drove from Ottawa to Vancouver and back, with stops for gas, coffee in, coffee out, meals, and lodging every few hours. Seven days’ drive out, five days’ drive back. I was struck by the fact that, basically anywhere we stopped, be it Petawawa, Marathon, Brandon, Golden, Kenora, Maple Creek- a strong majority of those behind the till at the gas stations and Timmies, serving us at restaurants, or checking us into our hotel rooms were visible minorities from a wide range of backgrounds, most with accents suggesting to me that they were temporary workers or first generation Canadians. I suspect most were from warmer places as well.

Second anecdote- earlier in life I lived in the Yukon for a few years while I was figuring out what I want to be when I grow up. I don’t believe the climate could be described as particularly mild. Out of a population of 35,000 we had about 30% who were first or second generation Canadian. The most surprising to me was over 1100 Yukoners from the Philippines, which I definitely didn’t expect moving up there. Very significant visible minority population, and they were hard workers. They simply bundled up, got to it, and often as not went from the one job to their second.

So, I’m skeptical at this suggestion that visible minority immigrants can’t or aren’t willing to hack it in the prairies or other remote areas. Brown ≠ weak.

 

[Rifleman62]

A month ago my wife and I drove from Ottawa to Vancouver and back, with stops for gas, coffee in, coffee out, meals, and lodging every few hours. Seven days’ drive out, five days’ drive back. I was struck by the fact that, basically anywhere we stopped, be it Petawawa, Marathon, Brandon, Golden, Kenora, Maple Creek- a strong majority of those behind the till at the gas stations and Timmies, serving us at restaurants, or checking us into our hotel rooms were visible minorities from a wide range of backgrounds, most with accents suggesting to me that they were temporary workers or first generation Canadians. I suspect most were from warmer places as well.

A month ago, my Wife and I drove from West Kelowna to Wpg via Lethbridge and Moosomin and return via Bismark, ND, Bozeman, MT and Spokane, WA.

Same experience as above.

Another example here: all the restaurants (Chinese, Mexican, Pizza, Greek, etc) are run by East Indians. Also a lot of Wineries. They WORK.

 

[Kirkhill]

Just tossing a couple anecdotes in.

A month ago my wife and I drove from Ottawa to Vancouver and back, with stops for gas, coffee in, coffee out, meals, and lodging every few hours. Seven days’ drive out, five days’ drive back. I was struck by the fact that, basically anywhere we stopped, be it Petawawa, Marathon, Brandon, Golden, Kenora, Maple Creek- a strong majority of those behind the till at the gas stations and Timmies, serving us at restaurants, or checking us into our hotel rooms were visible minorities from a wide range of backgrounds, most with accents suggesting to me that they were temporary workers or first generation Canadians. I suspect most were from warmer places as well.

Second anecdote- earlier in life I lived in the Yukon for a few years while I was figuring out what I want to be when I grow up. I don’t believe the climate could be described as particularly mild. Out of a population of 35,000 we had about 30% who were first or second generation Canadian. The most surprising to me was over 1100 Yukoners from the Philippines, which I definitely didn’t expect moving up there. Very significant visible minority population, and they were hard workers. They simply bundled up, got to it, and often as not went from the one job to their second.

So, I’m skeptical at this suggestion that visible minority immigrants can’t or aren’t willing to hack it in the prairies or other remote areas. Brown ≠ weak.

I annually make the run from Lethbridge to Saskatoon. I have my regular stops on the route. I have been saying shukran to the same woman at the Husky in Medicine Hat for the last 10 years or so. In Swift Current the gas bar is run by Sikhs and the McDonald's by Filipinos. Most Corner Stores out here are run by Asians of one description or another and most of them haven't lost their accents. I fit in pretty well with them in that regard.

Currently I am advising a young couple from Pakistan by way of Dubai who are setting up a boutique production facility in a hamlet in Central Alberta.

There are all sorts all over. A lot of people like room to breathe.

 

[mariomike]

Saw this from the National Bank of Canada dated 1 June, 2023.

It will take a median annual income of $91,858 about 25 years to save for a down payment on a house in Toronto.

https://www.nbc.ca/content/dam/bnc/taux-analyses/analyse-eco/logement/housing-affordability.pdf

 

[lenaitch]

Just tossing a couple anecdotes in.

A month ago my wife and I drove from Ottawa to Vancouver and back, with stops for gas, coffee in, coffee out, meals, and lodging every few hours. Seven days’ drive out, five days’ drive back. I was struck by the fact that, basically anywhere we stopped, be it Petawawa, Marathon, Brandon, Golden, Kenora, Maple Creek- a strong majority of those behind the till at the gas stations and Timmies, serving us at restaurants, or checking us into our hotel rooms were visible minorities from a wide range of backgrounds, most with accents suggesting to me that they were temporary workers or first generation Canadians. I suspect most were from warmer places as well.

Second anecdote- earlier in life I lived in the Yukon for a few years while I was figuring out what I want to be when I grow up. I don’t believe the climate could be described as particularly mild. Out of a population of 35,000 we had about 30% who were first or second generation Canadian. The most surprising to me was over 1100 Yukoners from the Philippines, which I definitely didn’t expect moving up there. Very significant visible minority population, and they were hard workers. They simply bundled up, got to it, and often as not went from the one job to their second.

So, I’m skeptical at this suggestion that visible minority immigrants can’t or aren’t willing to hack it in the prairies or other remote areas. Brown ≠ weak.

I've noticed something similar just in central Ontario. Many chains, such as Tim's, Popeyes, etc. seem to be increasingly staffed with visible minorities, often from what appears to be the Indian sub-continent. In the towns I am familiar with, there was never a significant visible minority population prior to this and no local post-secondary where they could be students. I don't know if the franchisees are increasingly from those demographics and they doing a lot of 'in house' hiring.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Just tossing a couple anecdotes in.

A month ago my wife and I drove from Ottawa to Vancouver and back, with stops for gas, coffee in, coffee out, meals, and lodging every few hours. Seven days’ drive out, five days’ drive back. I was struck by the fact that, basically anywhere we stopped, be it Petawawa, Marathon, Brandon, Golden, Kenora, Maple Creek- a strong majority of those behind the till at the gas stations and Timmies, serving us at restaurants, or checking us into our hotel rooms were visible minorities from a wide range of backgrounds, most with accents suggesting to me that they were temporary workers or first generation Canadians. I suspect most were from warmer places as well.

Second anecdote- earlier in life I lived in the Yukon for a few years while I was figuring out what I want to be when I grow up. I don’t believe the climate could be described as particularly mild. Out of a population of 35,000 we had about 30% who were first or second generation Canadian. The most surprising to me was over 1100 Yukoners from the Philippines, which I definitely didn’t expect moving up there. Very significant visible minority population, and they were hard workers. They simply bundled up, got to it, and often as not went from the one job to their second.

So, I’m skeptical at this suggestion that visible minority immigrants can’t or aren’t willing to hack it in the prairies or other remote areas. Brown ≠ weak.

It's because it's an easier process to get PR status and ultimately, citizenship, if you agree to immigrate to a Northern Community:

Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot: about the pilot

Information about the Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot, how to apply and eligibility criteria for prospective permanent residents

www.canada.ca

I have a number of guys from India and SE Asia that work for me:

1. They are extremely hard workers
2. They are all gentlemen and are a pleasure to work with

 

[brihard]

It's because it's an easier process to get PR status and ultimately, citizenship, if you agree to immigrate to a Northern Community:

Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot: about the pilot

Information about the Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot, how to apply and eligibility criteria for prospective permanent residents

www.canada.ca

I have a number of guys from India and SE Asia that work for me:

1. They are extremely hard workers
2. They are all gentlemen and are a pleasure to work with

Thanks for that. That sounds like a good bit of policy that specifically aims towards some of the issues discussed in this thread. It certainly explains some of the unexpected diasporas I encountered up north.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Post a ad for workers, cannot fill it domestically, get to bring in foreign workers who will likely work harder and not quit because they are reliant on that job to stay in Canada.

Part of it is also artificially keeping the wages lower as if you post a job for too low a wage, and can’t fill it domestically then you can being in foreign workers. Thereby allowing you to pay less than what the market rate should be.

Basically we are allowing companies to exploit people for profit, many of these companies will violate labour laws and get away with it as they know the workers dare not complain for fear of reprisals.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Thanks for that. That sounds like a good bit of policy that specifically aims towards some of the issues discussed in this thread. It certainly explains some of the unexpected diasporas I encountered up north.

More than half the long haul truckers in Canada are from overseas now. I would estimate that about 75% of the long haul truckers in Northern Ontario are from SE Asia.

These are the people that are keeping our economy going. It will take a generation but I believe many of them are going to become immensely wealthy from these endeavors with time.

The reality is Canadians don't want to do that job so someone else has to do it.

This is not without consequences though:

Northern Ontario, Crashes on the Rise - The Trucking Network Inc.

Current estimates show that there has been around a 40% increase in heavy truck collisions along highways 11 & 17 year over year.

thetruckingnetwork.ca

The terrain and conditions aren't great here and newcomers find themselves in trouble up here very quickly and the statistics back that up. I think this will improve with time though as they become more acclimated.

 

[Eaglelord17]

More than half the long haul truckers in Canada are from overseas now. I would estimate that about 75% of the long haul truckers in Northern Ontario are from SE Asia.

These are the people that are keeping our economy going. It will take a generation but I believe many of them are going to become immensely wealthy from these endeavors with time.

The reality is Canadians don't want to do that job so someone else has to do it.

This is not without consequences though:

Northern Ontario, Crashes on the Rise - The Trucking Network Inc.

Current estimates show that there has been around a 40% increase in heavy truck collisions along highways 11 & 17 year over year.

thetruckingnetwork.ca

The terrain and conditions aren't great here and newcomers find themselves in trouble up here very quickly and the statistics back that up. I think this will improve with time though as they become more acclimated.

I live in these parts, over the last few years I have almost been taken out by transport trucks several times. I suspect most of it is lack of familiarity, driving too fast, and being too tired.

Closest call was a year ago driving on the single lane highway going around a bend when the transport truck in the opposing lane was over 50% in mine coming at me head on. I barely had enough shoulder to fit my small car on without being launched off the road into the forest/rocks or getting into a head on with the transport.

Makes you think when your only a inch or two from being another obituary in the paper.

 

[Quirky]

The reality is Canadians don't want to do that job so someone else has to do it.

Reality is, the white-born Canadian will be the minority very soon through low birth rates and increased immigration. Canadians don’t want those types of jobs because they are hard, don’t pay enough for their liking and aren’t seen as socially acceptable because it doesn’t involve 4 years of study in a woke Canadian college.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Reminds me of the exhilaration of travelling a radio-controlled logging road during working hours, without a radio.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Reality is, the white-born Canadian will be the minority very soon through low birth rates and increased immigration. Canadians don’t want those types of jobs because they are hard, don’t pay enough for their liking and aren’t seen as socially acceptable because it doesn’t involve 4 years of study in a woke Canadian college.

Cultural acclimation isn't based on skin colour.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I live in these parts, over the last few years I have almost been taken out by transport trucks several times. I suspect most of it is lack of familiarity, driving too fast, and being too tired.

Closest call was a year ago driving on the single lane highway going around a bend when the transport truck in the opposing lane was over 50% in mine coming at me head on. I barely had enough shoulder to fit my small car on without being launched off the road into the forest/rocks or getting into a head on with the transport.

Makes you think when your only a inch or two from being another obituary in the paper.

I am a manager for the railroad in Northern Ontario. Winter patrols in my territory are always an interesting experience.

Last winter I had to help more than a few drivers who got themselves in trouble on the main dogpath (Hwy 17). The 300km stretch between White River and Nipigon is a particularly unforegiving road.

I carry a patrol pack, survival gear, snowshoes, first aid kit, extra food, at all times. I also drive a 4x4 that is equipped with a radio.

 

[Good2Golf]

Reminds me of the exhilaration of travelling a radio-controlled logging road during working hours, without a radio.

Did that once, and had to dive well into the ‘shoulder’ to not get flattened by a Pacific P16 with about 125,000lbs of wet Douglas Fir…I stayed on paved roads after that…

 

[mariomike]

I live in these parts, over the last few years I have almost been taken out by transport trucks several times.

Bonehead Truckers make fun of the dumb stuff they see on the road.

I don't mind that kind of garbage, as long as it's on TV, and not through a wind shield.

If it doesn't put a fright into you, nothing will.

Shame on the mess!

 

[brihard]

Reality is, the white-born Canadian will be the minority very soon through low birth rates and increased immigration. Canadians don’t want those types of jobs because they are hard, don’t pay enough for their liking and aren’t seen as socially acceptable because it doesn’t involve 4 years of study in a woke Canadian college.

That’s a super weird thing for you to say and I wonder why you would. I’m a white born Canadian but that doesn’t make me any better or more useful a person than my non-white-born naturalized citizen wife. I don’t even see why you’re bringing up “white-born Canadians” being a minority as if it’s something we need to fear or be concerned about. In any case, white people are nearly 70% of the Canadian population, so your claim of some imminent minority status seems divorced from fact.

There are parts of Canadian society for whom “white-born Canadian” matters and who might fear or be made uncomfortable about this eventual possibility… But we shouldn’t be pandering to them when crafting policy. That‘a not the Canada I want for the might-not-look-white son I’m having next month.

 

[dimsum]

Reality is, the white-born Canadian will be the minority very soon through low birth rates and increased immigration.

Please tell me you are not suggesting the "Great Replacement" theory.

Aside from @brihard 's 70% stat, the notion that the GoC (still majority white-Canadian, if you take a look at who's in govt) is somehow instigating a policy to replace Caucasians in Canada is frankly absurd.

Canadians don’t want those types of jobs because they are hard, don’t pay enough for their liking and aren’t seen as socially acceptable because it doesn’t involve 4 years of study in a woke Canadian college.

I'm a visible minority, born and raised in Canada. This is not a "white Canadian" issue - my ethnicity is even more biased against anything not university (or higher) educated than most white Canadians I know, and it took 20+ years of CAF service for my family to accept that the military isn't "for the poor and useless" (actual words from them).

It's also not an issue of "woke" - my ethnic community just sees that the higher paying and higher prestige jobs are those with higher education. I also notice that you seem to shoehorn "wokeness" into whatever conversation whether it's relevant or not. How "woke" are Engineering faculties in our universities, or Medicine, or Math?

 

[lenaitch]

As the article says, I think the state of long haul trucking is the result of multiple changes. back in ye olden days, the industry fell primarily into two groups; company fleets (hauling their own goods) and owner-operators hauling contracted loads, either under a long term contract or through a load broker. Most company fleets were quite cognizant of their image and operations; their logos were pasted all over their rigs, many held 'rallies' for their drivers, etc. Companies like the breweries and Canadian Tire operated safe, respected fleets - they were the 'knights of the road'. If the highway was closed, they often headed for a motel and a warm bed. The owner-operators had a lot invested into their rigs in both time and money. Many were back-yard mechanics, primarily because they had an interest and they simply couldn't afford to always pay somebody to keep them running. Many were quite proud of their rig, usually evidenced by the amount of chrome and lights.

Now, there are very, very few company fleets. There are still for-hire fleets, but most of what we see on the road today are trailers being hauled by a tractor owned by a leasing company operated by drivers contracted from a driver pool company. The first time a driver met that truck and that load may have been this morning. Most have no mechanical skill or interest in the vehicle and, besides, they're just hired to drive.

The driver training, at least in Ontario, isn't great. As the article says, the introduction of e-logs makes 'fudging' much more difficult and many are trying to put as many kliks on in as many hours. According to guys I know who are still on the job, if you pull a rig over, you will often find two to three occupants in the cab. Not all may have a Class A licence, but they will always be the one behind the wheel by the time you walk up there.

As mentioned, man are simply not ready with the weather and terrain of northern Ontario. Having said that, many aren't ready for the 401 either. I'm always amazed when I read about a rig simply driving into either the back of another rig or the tail end of the stopped traffic. Distracted (watched TV on the tablet in the middle of the steering wheel)? Inexperience? Too fast? Who knows.

 

[mariomike]

The driver training, at least in Ontario, isn't great.

This, from four months ago, discusses truck driver training in Ontario.