Coastal Defense's in WW2

[tomahawk6]

I ran across this excellant web site that depicts US coast defense positions in Alaska and Puget Sound. Did Canada do something similar in WW2 along the pacific coast ?

http://www.sdphotos.org/

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

AHQ reports
AHQ Historical report 1 has a bare-bones account of the Pacific coast defense.

 

[AmmoTech90]

There has been some discussion of old sites here before-

Here's one reference

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13055/post-56484.html#msg56484

and another

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/56822/post-524709.html#msg524709

 

[Blackadder1916]

Though not the Pacific coast, this topic brings back childhood memories of "playing war" among abandoned WW2 coastal gun positions.

Fort Amherst
In 1941 two casemated 4.7-inch guns were installed here from Signal Hill, replacing two 75mm guns which were sent to Fort Chain Rock, and they are still here. This battery helped to protect the minefield outside of the Narrows. An American SCR-296A radar installation was nearby.

Cape Spear
This WWII bunker/gun battery was built in 1941. The batteries included two US 10-inch M1888 guns on M1894M1 disappearing carrages, transferred from Fort Mott, New Jersey*. After the the war in 1946 most buildings were torn down and the gun carriages were removed.

There are also other sites in Newfoundland, many (for T6 and the other Yanks) with a US connection. http://www.geocities.com/naforts/nf.html#stjohns  (links to other sites with more photos)

 

[Ljealexander]

Fort Rodd Hill National Historic Site is located west of CFB Esquimalt. Their website gives a very good history of the west coast defence system.

http://www.fortroddhill.com/

We toured the site last summer. Very interesting. My son loved it.

 

[tomahawk6]

Super links.

 

[Timmy!]

I got a few bunker sites near my house. And the islands across from it. McNab's Island is some nice. I think a camping trip there soon is coming up.

 

[pbi]

I served at Work Point Barracks (in Esquimalt, BC just outside Victoria) 1983-1986. The Barracks itself was originally built by the British in the late 19th century to house the Royal Artillery garrison for the coast batteries in the area. Beside Fort Rodd Hill, I  also saw:

-the Macauley Point battery site, near the Work Point base gym;

-the Mary Hill battery site, towards Sooke;

-various individual searchlight and QF/HMG turrets along the Victoria-Esquimalt shoreline near the Barracks; and

-mobile gun firing positions (deployment locations for towed AA and coastal guns) located at a coastal training area whose name I have forgotten.

There were probably many more related structures that I never saw or that had been put to other uses. IIRC, the Cdn defences were coordinated with the US defences around Port Angeles WA, on the opposite shore of the Strait of Juan de Fuca. I believe that the original British intent was not to defend against the US, but against Imperial Russia which was becoming active in the Pacific at that time. The defences were later improved for WWI then WWII, then I think they were considered obsolete.

Cheers

 

[medaid]

Along the beaches around the University of British Columbia, there are old gun emplacements. They are quite prominent and have many plaques explaining their functions from date to date.

 

[3rd Herd]

I ran across this excellant web site that depicts US coast defense positions in Alaska and Puget Sound. Did Canada do something similar in WW2 along the pacific coast ?

Tom,
the best reference on the West Coast is Silent Seige by Bert Webber, also an article called "Retaliation: Japanese Attacks and Allied Countermeasures on the Pacfic Coast in World War Two" again by Weber.

For those of you who have been out to the Work Point area Sarty's Tin Pots and Prirate Ships covers all the west coast defence's upto the Second world war. Most of the early defences for the Royal Artillery were constructed to prevent a Russian attack on the coast in 1878 during the Russo-Turkish war. Militia General Order (Number Seventeen), dated 19 July 1878, the Battery of Garrison Artilley was authorized for the Victoria Esquimalt area. These volunteers were replaced by "C" Battery of the Royal Canadian Artillery in November. The orginal guns at "Fort Macaulay" were on loan from the Royal Navy, other postions included Finayson Point, Victoria Point and Brother's Island. The guns themselves were RML rifled muzzled loaders and the first was fired on the 26th of July 1878 by the Victoria Battery of the Garrison Artillery. The 5th [BC] Field Battery is the current desendant of the orginal Victoria Battery. These guns may have orginally been positioned in Halifax at McNabs Island and then shipped to the west coast when the east coast was "modernized".

The muzzle loaders were later up dated to "6 inch disappearing" and then to 7.5 inch. During the world war two era "the Senior U S Army Member reported that the United States was prepared to loan to Canada either four 8-inch railway guns or eight 155mm guns" Further, "The purpose of coast defences on VANCOUVER ISLAND was considered primarily to protect the ports of ESQUIMALT and VICTORIA from bombardment. The completion of the ultimate defences at ALBERT HEAD and MARY HILL would full-fill this role. Until then the temporary installation of a two gun 8-inch battery at CHRISTOPHER POINT as an emergency measure only was necessary."(REPORT NO. 1)

There is also for those in Ottawa the following file "RG 24, Series C-1, Reel C-4978, File:8328-170, Parts: 1, Inspection reports by Inspector General-Pacific Coast Defences-Victoria and Esquimalt Fortress". Intrestingly is the usage of the word "Fortress". You can also look at the papers on the "Joint Canadian-United States Basic Defence Plan No. 2". There are also a couple of other files I have requested such as "Defence Measures and Regulations-Enemy Shelling of Estevan Point-Radio Station and Light  1941" which are currently still classified and I am waitting for the restrictions for access to be lifted by the ATIP divison of the archives. Other interesting reading can be found in the "Interrogation Reports of Japanese Officials". More recently I have come across reports of a second shelling of a lighthouse in addition to the Estevan attack. This second shelling is interesting as it was reported by natives in the Nootka area but discounted by government and miltary officials as they were natives and could have not possibly known what a submarine was. Anyone interested in going looking for some old shell fragments?

Other sources:
AHQ Report No. 3 "Derlict Defence"

Boyd, Carl. "American Naval Intelligence of Japanese Submarine Operations Early in the Pacfic War"

Brown, Atholl Sutherland. BUSTER: A CANADIAN PATRIOT AND IMPERIALIST THE LIFE AND TIMES OF BRIGADIER JAMES SUTHERLAND BROWN (reviewed in Canadian Army Journal Vol. 8.1 Winter 2005)

CFHQ 002 "Canadian American Defence Relations"

Eayers, James. In Defence of Canada-- From The Great War to the Great Depression

REPORT NO. 1 "FIXED COAST ARTILLERY DEFENCES ON THE PACIFIC COAST": http://www.mdn.ca/dhh/downloads/ahq/ahq001.PDF

Preston, Richard A. The Defence of the. Undefended Border: Planning for War in North America, 1867-1939

Weicht, Chris "Radio Detachments on the West Coast of Canada" http://www.pinetreeline.org/rds/detail/rds99-33.html

Weicht, Chris Jericho Beach and the West Coast Flying Boat Stations

Any newspaper atricles by either Douglas Leechman or Archie H Wills are worth the read also.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Along the beaches around the University of British Columbia, there are old gun emplacements. They are quite prominent and have many plaques explaining their functions from date to date.

Those are actually searchlight towers, the search lights used bearings to range targets. The main gun batteries were up on the hill, now the Museum of Man (one gun position still visible to the SW in the bushes) Next one was at 3rd beach, you can still see the position although buried. Another battery of 12pdrs was under Lions Gate bridge now torn down.

There was a field gun mounted at Steveston, a 3.7” AA battery at Ambleside and another AA battery near the refineries.

Yorke Island near Pt Mcneil Northern Vancouver Island was also fortified with a gun battery.

There was two gun batteries at Prince Rupert, one just North of Ridely island same design as the one at UBC (3 guns 6 or 8”)




and a QF twin 6pdr on Fredrick Island (same Island as airport) Plus at Seal cove/Sourdough cove the ammo bunkers for the Seaplanes can still be seen.

The Work Point fort has some brick buildings with the date 1896 if I recall correctly and also had 3 gun positions.

There was plans kicked around for a major fort at Stanley Park in the late 1800’s

 

[je suis prest]

Stanley Park was part of the Vancouver Fortress defences.  There was a battery of two six-inch guns there originally, dating from 1938.  In 1942 they were swapped with the 4.7 inch guns from Yorke Island. 

The remains of the battery now lie next to Ferguson Point Tea House, unknown to the vast majority of Vancouver's inhabitants.

The museum of the 15th Field Regiment in Vancouver contains a detailed diorama of the Point Grey Batteries.

More information on BC's coastal artillery defences can be found at:http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:bzBAIRcs_9AJ:www.mdn.ca/dhh/downloads/ahq/ahq001.PDF+Stanley+Park+coastal+defence&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=ca

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

Just to note that the sites in Vancouver (at least) have been placemarked in Google Earth (Google Earth Community Forums/Military)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

There is a good book called "Vancouver Defended" written by a Capt Moogk of 15th Fd (now retired)


Moogk, Peter N. Vancouver defended: a history of the men and guns of the Lower Mainland defences, 1859-1949.
“ …a warm hearted and carefully researched chronicle of the men and weapons used in the defence of Vancouver and the Lower Mainland of British Columbia”. VIP

http://www.vancouverhistory.ca/vancouver_books.htm

 

[3rd Herd]

There is a good book called "Vancouver Defended" written by a Capt Moogk of 15th Fd (now retired)


Moogk, Peter N. Vancouver defended: a history of the men and guns of the Lower Mainland defences, 1859-1949.
“ …a warm hearted and carefully researched chronicle of the men and weapons used in the defence of Vancouver and the Lower Mainland of British Columbia”. VIP

http://www.vancouverhistory.ca/vancouver_books.htm

Colin,
between what the two of us have posted on this site we should be able to write our own book.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

This site mentions the armoured train based in Prince Rupert

http://www.bookboat.com/waterfront-history/worldwar2.htm

 

[3rd Herd]

This site mentions the armoured train based in Prince Rupert

http://www.bookboat.com/waterfront-history/worldwar2.htm

CANADA’S BEST KEPT SECRET OF WWII
The Armoured Train 
by Ted Hackett
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour and the enemy’s successes in the following weeks and months caused great concern on the West Coat of Canada. Prince Rupert was now a strategic port, and embarkation point for US Army Personnel and supplies destined for Alaska. The United States had already built an installation and had several personnel stationed at the port. The Canadian National Railway line that ran along the Skeena river now became very important. At that time no highway ran to Prince Rupert

The defence of Prince Rupert was supported by seven coastal batteries and, in 1942, by two railway guns supplied by the United States Army.The RCAF 7 BR Squadron patrolled the area using Blackburn Shark aircraft on floats. John Moyles was stationed there and hopefully he will write an account of his adventures at that time.

In early 1942 it was decided to build an armoured train to patrol the railway line between Prince Rupert and Terrace, B.C., a distance of 95 miles. The train was assembled at the CNR Transconna Workshops in Winnipeg, Manitoba and consisted of seven pieces of modified, armour plated, rolling stock pulled by a steam locomotive. The locomotive was a CN class H-10, number 1426 and 4-6-0 commonly called a “10 wheeler”. That last bit of information is for any railroad buffs amongst our readers. There were plans to replace the steam locomotive with a diesel electric and CN No.9000 was chosen, but by the time it was obtained through the US Navy the need for the train was downgraded.

The train was manned by a company from the Winnipeg Grenadiers and equipped with Bren Guns, 75mm and Bofor guns. The assigned task was to patrol the Skeena river and engage any ships that attempted to sail up the river and, perhaps land troops.

The Japanese departure from Kiska in the Aleutian Islands and the reoccupation of the Island by the US Army certainly lessened the threat to Prince Rupert and the train was eventually taken out of service. The train was parked on the siding at Terrace and eventually returned to the CNR for dismantling., a little over two years since its creation.

Ted refers to an excellent book on the topic; THE ARMOURED TRAIN IN CANADIAN SEVICE by Roger V. Lucy. Your Editor was able to obtain this book, courtesy of Robert Henderson. Following are some interesting excerpts from Roger Lucy’s book.

With the attack on Pearl Harbour December 7, 1941 and the fall of Singapore 15 February 1942, public opinion on the West Coast, in the words of C.P. Stacey were ….in a state approaching panic…..
[Editor –  at that time plans for the mass evacuation of Vancouver Island where being formulated.]  Security was so tight that people in Prince Rupert did not know of the armoured train until after the war.

The CNR train crew consisted of, engineer, fireman, conductor, and two brakemen. Department of National Defence reimbursed the CNR $100.00 per day for each crew member and $80.00 per day for rental of equipment.

The train at all times was to be in charge of the CNR crew, who in turn were under the orders of the O.C. Troops and move the train in accordance to his instructions subject to the standard of operating rules.

The five officers and 145 Other Ranks were made up mainly of  Home Defence conscripts and moral was not high. Major General W.A. Giesbach , Inspector General for Western Canada states that he found them unenthusiastic, even sullen. On the first run to Prince Rupert two went AWOL

To add to the problems the rail bed was in need of up grading. Ties were rotting and some spikes were so loose they could be removed by hand. The resulting vibration necessitated lowering the speed to 10 to 15 mph. The vibrations played havoc with the search lights and gun mountings which were attached solidly to the floors of the rail cars. The cars had to be sent to Vancouver for adjustments.

For security reasons the train did not adhere to scheduled runs. As a result it ran over a man asleep on the tracks severing both is legs. It was determined  that he was a local sleeping off a binge. Two CNR rail line workers were killed when the train hit them when they were using jackhammers. Due to the non scheduled runs they were not expecting the train and they did not hear it approaching over the sound of  jackhammers .Due to the status of the roadbed, the train was located at Tyee, close to the mouth of the Skeena. 

On November 7, 1942 the train complement consisted of a Major, Company Sgt. Major, Quarter Master Sergeant, 3 Corporals,, clerk, artificer, and cook. The remainder of the crew were detailed from 14th Brigade, an Infantry company (5 officers and 119 Ors) gun crew (2 officers and 24Ors, searchlight crew (8 Ors), signals (3Ors), Medical staff,  and 3 Royal Canadian Engineers.

The first Commanding Officer of the Armoured train was Captain N..K. Gateson of the Winnipeg Grenadiers who served from 27 June, 1942 to 28 February 1943. He was replaced by Major J.C. Herbert of the Oxford Rifles who served until the train was moth-balled in October 1943.

On July 31, 1944, Royal Assent was given to the Order in council disbanding the Unit.

Source: http://www.airmuseum.ca/mag/0609.html

 

[navydiver]

Hello all - been a while since I frequented this forum. I have now retired from the CF as a Clearance Diving Officer (Sep 08) and am now, coincidentally, working as part of the DND Unexploded Explosive Ordnance (UXO) and Legacy Sites Program - my specialty being underwater sites on the west coast. Naturally former coastal defence batteries falls under my area of responsibility because of the munitions that now lie on the ocean bottom and did not function as designed - hence UXO. I was really interestested in the discussion by 3rd Herd about the coastal emplacements on the west coast. In particular some of the reports he quotes - will try to get the recommended books. Would love to get some of these reorts and/or chat offline with 3rd Herd if willing.
navydiver@bigfoot.com sends...

 

[Shec]

Tom,
the best reference on the West Coast is Silent Seige by Bert Webber, also an article called "Retaliation: Japanese Attacks and Allied Countermeasures on the Pacfic Coast in World War Two" again by Weber.

For those of you who have been out to the Work Point area Sarty's Tin Pots and Prirate Ships covers all the west coast defence's upto the Second world war. Most of the early defences for the Royal Artillery were constructed to prevent a Russian attack on the coast in 1878 during the Russo-Turkish war. Militia General Order (Number Seventeen), dated 19 July 1878, the Battery of Garrison Artilley was authorized for the Victoria Esquimalt area. These volunteers were replaced by "C" Battery of the Royal Canadian Artillery in November. The orginal guns at "Fort Macaulay" were on loan from the Royal Navy, other postions included Finayson Point, Victoria Point and Brother's Island. The guns themselves were RML rifled muzzled loaders and the first was fired on the 26th of July 1878 by the Victoria Battery of the Garrison Artillery. The 5th [BC] Field Battery is the current desendant of the orginal Victoria Battery. These guns may have orginally been positioned in Halifax at McNabs Island and then shipped to the west coast when the east coast was "modernized".

The muzzle loaders were later up dated to "6 inch disappearing" and then to 7.5 inch. During the world war two era "the Senior U S Army Member reported that the United States was prepared to loan to Canada either four 8-inch railway guns or eight 155mm guns" Further, "The purpose of coast defences on VANCOUVER ISLAND was considered primarily to protect the ports of ESQUIMALT and VICTORIA from bombardment. The completion of the ultimate defences at ALBERT HEAD and MARY HILL would full-fill this role. Until then the temporary installation of a two gun 8-inch battery at CHRISTOPHER POINT as an emergency measure only was necessary."(REPORT NO. 1)

There is also for those in Ottawa the following file "RG 24, Series C-1, Reel C-4978, File:8328-170, Parts: 1, Inspection reports by Inspector General-Pacific Coast Defences-Victoria and Esquimalt Fortress". Intrestingly is the usage of the word "Fortress". You can also look at the papers on the "Joint Canadian-United States Basic Defence Plan No. 2". There are also a couple of other files I have requested such as "Defence Measures and Regulations-Enemy Shelling of Estevan Point-Radio Station and Light  1941" which are currently still classified and I am waitting for the restrictions for access to be lifted by the ATIP divison of the archives. Other interesting reading can be found in the "Interrogation Reports of Japanese Officials". More recently I have come across reports of a second shelling of a lighthouse in addition to the Estevan attack. This second shelling is interesting as it was reported by natives in the Nootka area but discounted by government and miltary officials as they were natives and could have not possibly known what a submarine was. Anyone interested in going looking for some old shell fragments?

Other sources:
AHQ Report No. 3 "Derlict Defence"

Boyd, Carl. "American Naval Intelligence of Japanese Submarine Operations Early in the Pacfic War"

Brown, Atholl Sutherland. BUSTER: A CANADIAN PATRIOT AND IMPERIALIST THE LIFE AND TIMES OF BRIGADIER JAMES SUTHERLAND BROWN (reviewed in Canadian Army Journal Vol. 8.1 Winter 2005)

CFHQ 002 "Canadian American Defence Relations"

Eayers, James. In Defence of Canada-- From The Great War to the Great Depression

REPORT NO. 1 "FIXED COAST ARTILLERY DEFENCES ON THE PACIFIC COAST": http://www.mdn.ca/dhh/downloads/ahq/ahq001.PDF

Preston, Richard A. The Defence of the. Undefended Border: Planning for War in North America, 1867-1939

Weicht, Chris "Radio Detachments on the West Coast of Canada" http://www.pinetreeline.org/rds/detail/rds99-33.html

Weicht, Chris Jericho Beach and the West Coast Flying Boat Stations

Any newspaper atricles by either Douglas Leechman or Archie H Wills are worth the read also.

Allow me to add to this list, for which I thank 3rd Herd, Brendan Coyle's War on Our Doorstep which describes the actions that occured along the Pacific Coast, from Japanese subs and their torpedo victims, to the shelling of Estevan Point Lighthouse, to the abovementioned armoured train and the Zombies, to the RCAF  and Canadian Army in Aleutian campaign, to the Japanese Balloon bombs :
http://www.heritagehouse.ca/press_releases/war_doorstepUSa.htm

I also once toured the former USN airship base in Tillamook Ore., now a museum,  Albeit a US rather than a Canadian installation it opened my eyes to the use of Blimps for ASW.

http://www.nastillamook.org/

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I just took these pictures during my visit to Singapore they are at Ft Siloso, the layout is very typical of British forts, 3 protected guns with a Director tower and dug in support works. The roof over the gun postion is for preservation and not standard.

ammo hoist