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Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]

misfit said:
The most practical of all the martial arts out there has got to be Jui-Jitsu. Other sport martial arts (tae kwon doe, karate, blah blah) are totally useless if the fight moves closer than kicking or punching range. Once two are tangled in a "clinch" or grapple - punches and kicks are not really effective (elbows and knees are). 90% percence of fights end up on the ground - and if you dont know some very basic , but specific techniques and what to watch out for, you'll get XXXXXX up. Just watch "Royce Gracie" fight some kung fu dorks.

I'm pretty sure they teach some form of Jui-Jitsu to most militaries for Hand to Hand combat. Closing the distance quickly, with aggressive control, and snapping an arm or choking the enemy out is much more practical then "squaring off for a karate/tae kwon do/board-breaking-bullshit/high-kicking/silly yelling" match.

Or better yet - don't lose your gun.  :threat:

PM inbound

I'd have to say the most practical and useful of all martial arts would be Jeet Kune Do. Developed by Bruce Lee, it has most of the effective martial arts integrated into it (Muay Thai,American boxing, Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, etc.). Watch the training video he made on it; some pretty useful stuff.

-Rohann
 
I took and completed the Unarmed Combat Instructors Course in Meaford in spring of 2000.  Some of the techniques in the manual were a little outdated but the instructors brought there own knowledge from there martial arts, boxing and wrestling backgrounds.  They also brought in a civilian Grappling Instructor.  It was a tough 3 weeks and the biggest thing I picked up from the course.  CONSERVE AMMO.  Dont have to kick and punch if you put a lead pill behind there ear.


Ireland
 
We took "unarmed combat" prior to going over to FMF PAC. Twice I had situations that required use of hand-to-hand force with a much smaller opponent. I initially underestimated him and nearly got my clock cleaned, I never gave it a second thought after that. Most of the comments here on naked aggression, do what has to be done, I find correct. Not once did I ever think of the moves we practised so hard on, let alone use them. Just down and dirty.
 
Has anyone here heared of a martial art called Krav Maga. i was reading about it and it sounds very interesting and im thinking of taking it up.
 
as long as you find an instructor in true Krav Maga, you will be prepared to defend yourself in almost any situation.

It's become a bit of a fad, with frauds and "band wagon jumpers-on". Not as bad as Ninjutsu in the '80s, but be careful. Research your instructor carefully. Don't ask me for references, I've never had the opportunity to study this system. This is just stuff I've picked up via martial arts magazines and Military-related websites.
 
Krav Maga is pretty much a hybrid martial art aimed specifically at cops and soldiers. Its useful. Like paracowboy stated, RESEARCH and sort the bullsh*tters from the real instructors.
 
and as for this "My martial art can beat up your martial art" crap...boys, shake your heads. There is no panacea for the forceful application of controlled violence. They all got good points, and they all got bad ones. They have their strengths and weaknesses.

You have to look at your particular mentality, body-type, and where/when you're most likely to end up having to fight. Learn a system that suits you. Work on mastering it. But sample every other style you can find, if for no other reason that to learn how your system works against it. That's how the Almighty Bruce started.

Look at each style's strengths: boxing is outstanding for it's punches and footwork; wrestling for it's ground work; tae kwan do for it's kicks; arnis for it's stick/knife work; etc. Train in them all, or find a system that incorporates most of them.

Learn to defend yourself at every range: kicking, punching, grappling, weapons, shooting. Learn to handle yourself standing up and on the ground. Think about what you will most likely be wearing. Train as you will fight.

And decide that if you will fight, you are going to fight to win. Best of all, learn to recognize when a fight is brewing, and depart before. If it's not possible, remember this: If you find yourself in a fair fight...

...your tactics suck.
 
Quote from Paracowboy,
That's how the Almighty Bruce started.


Hmmm,  you've heard about my hockey exploits too...... :-[


Oh, you mean the OTHER Bruce..... :)

 
I'm currently taking my SQ course, and we have hand to hand combat training on Fridays for PT. We did this through out BMQ as well. Its not any sort of martial arts, its just basic fighting skills.

Mike
 
M. Sparks said:
I'm currently taking my SQ course, and we have hand to hand combat training on Fridays for PT. We did this through out BMQ as well. Its not any sort of martial arts, its just basic fighting skills.

Mike

Is this an official part of the course? The only thing I have seen for unarmed combat stuff, is the new BIQ incorporates unarmed combat into it.
 
A bit of history for those who may wonder about our hand-to-hand program:

We used to be pretty prolific in this aspect until 1988 when one of our guys in the VP accidently got stabbed through the heart during an exhibition.   In 1989, premission was given to start up a new course for instructors, but we did not use the manual, which teaches only basic maneuvres, and most of those in the manual are inadequately described, with a few even being in correct. The instructor for this program was a local bouncer who taught a combination of martial arts designed for close-in self defence.  Since then there is a continual see-saw between the need for good fighting techniques and frightened officers who worry about soldiers getting hurt (or severly injured) during training (valid, but prohibited to the point of silliness, another legacy of our peace-keeping days).  Nowadays there is more acceptance for the need for close-infighting skills, but you get a lot of flak from JAGs and associated offices if you are not officially sponsored by the CF or in a trade that considers the skill essential. This is probably very different from the stuff people are being taught nowadays, in the old school way I was taught a dozen different techniques from as many people over 20 years.

Things you really need to know: 

1) Know when to walk away:  One guy who wanted to join my area of expertise said "I can take care of myself, I know martial arts and fight in UFC."  Thats nice, but getting into a fight sometimes means you failed your primary task, which was not to draw attention.  This applies to many situations on tours of the CF.  Its not about how tough you are or whether you can kick the other guys ***, its whether you did your job without sustaining injuries (on them or us). 

2) Be willing to kick butt - thoroughly, completely and with complete dedication:  On the flip side, you need to know when its time to kick some butt, very important in the infantry where your job IS to make sure you can start a fight and win.  Fighting is for when they wont give up peacefully, when you are protecting yourself and others, or when you are ordered to go in there and kick ***.  Theres no ref to stop the fight or a manager to throw in the towel.  Once you start you cant back out, and you cant give up.  Read up on some of parkie's war tales to read about what a man has to do to stay alive (I would say refer to our guys overseas who have had these experiences, but dont know of any other threads they speak in...). Oh and it has to be the right butt - not some civi in a bar who insults your machismo (see #1), save it for the bad guys.        

3) Expect to fight dirty!: There's lots of different styles for injuring or killing a man, but the most important things to learn are the vulnerable areas that most techniques dont teach or allow in sparring; know the vital areas and how to affect them; kidney punches, joint disablers, eyes slashes, ear smacks, nose smashes, throat damage, groin attacks, these are the most important that stun or momentarily incapacitate a person in close-in fighting. Get the enemy blind or gasping and the advantage is yours. 

4) Improvise from local materials: The great thing about an urban built up area is the crap lying around ready for use in a fight. Learning to use improvised weapons is important, as well as defending agaisn them.  Personally I learned bokido style techniques but there are a lot of others that are weapons-based which can be applied to more effective use of your rifle other than a stab or buttstroke.

5) Learn to capture without killing: You will also need to be able disarm or immobilize your opponent so that they can be questioned; higher ups tend to get upset when all you have are untraceable dead bodies, as do civil police bodies, or it might be a suspect you just want to control without harming.  You shoud know some aikido or the close-in joint manipulation moves used by dozens of martial arts. 

6) Review your fighting gear capabilities: If you are wearing full tactical gear, where are your vulnerable areas? Most non-infantry soldiers (and even a infantry soldiers - note , this is pre-2001) I worked with knew only how to fight when wearing pants and t-shirts, and didnt change their ideas of fighting once they were fully dressed for combat.  There are certain combat moves that you cannot perform while wearing webbing or a full tact vest, or at least it throws off your balance.  There are also certain body areas protected when you wear different types of gear, so you can spend less time trying to protect them and focus on protecting other areas.  Further, learn what pieces of equipment can be used as effective armour or bludgeons.  If you can fight with improvised weapons, you are never unarmed!  (only outranged...)

7) Reference the one guys comment on depending on your buddies to help you - dont!  In close quarters fights, the kick-in of adrenaline causes tunnel vision.  All you know about is kicking the guys *** in front of you.  When the guy is down and out or dead, then you have time to look around and help others.  Only those who have a high level of experience in hand-to-hand combat or training in martial arts are able to avoid loss of situational wareness in a fight.  Even if you have that skill, its uncertain if the others on your team also have it (unless you are with the elite units).  Counting on others to pile-on is a standard police tactic for dealing with single difficult arrests and riot situations but doesnt work in H2H combat where the odds are usually 1-1.   

(Quick edit - in regards to a matter raised by armyrick - many of these concepts are in direct contravention to the concepts of using minimum force and thus not approved by the CF JAG for use in disarming or incapacitating potential enemies.)
 
Centurian1985 said:
A bit of history for those who may wonder about our hand-to-hand program:

We used to be pretty prolific in this aspect until 1988 when one of our guys in the VP accidently got stabbed through the heart during an exhibition.  In 1989, premission was given to start up a new course for instructors, but we did not use the manual, which teaches only basic maneuvres, and most of those in the manual are inadequately described, with a few even being in correct. The instructor for this program was a local bouncer who taught a combination of martial arts designed for close-in self defence.  Since then there is a continual see-saw between the need for good fighting techniques and frightened officers who worry about soldiers getting hurt (or severly injured) during training (valid, but prohibited to the point of silliness, another legacy of our peace-keeping days).  Nowadays there is more acceptance for the need for close-infighting skills, but you get a lot of flak from JAGs and associated offices if you are not officially sponsored by the CF or in a trade that considers the skill essential. This is probably very different from the stuff people are being taught nowadays, in the old school way I was taught a dozen different techniques from as many people over 20 years.

Things you really need to know: 

1) Know when to walk away:  One guy who wanted to join my area of expertise said "I can take care of myself, I know martial arts and fight in UFC."  Thats nice, but getting into a fight sometimes means you failed your primary task, which was not to draw attention.  This applies to many situations on tours of the CF.  Its not about how tough you are or whether you can kick the other guys ***, its whether you did your job without sustaining injuries (on them or us). 

2) Be willing to kick butt - thoroughly, completely and with complete dedication:  On the flip side, you need to know when its time to kick some butt, very important in the infantry where your job IS to make sure you can start a fight and win.  Fighting is for when they wont give up peacefully, when you are protecting yourself and others, or when you are ordered to go in there and kick ***.  Theres no ref to stop the fight or a manager to throw in the towel.  Once you start you cant back out, and you cant give up.  Read up on some of parkie's war tales to read about what a man has to do to stay alive (I would say refer to our guys overseas who have had these experiences, but dont know of any other threads they speak in...).     

3) Expect to fight dirty!: There's lots of different styles for injuring or killing a man, but the most important things to learn are the vulnerable areas that most techniques dont teach or allow in sparring; know the vital areas and how to affect them; kidney punches, joint disablers, eyes slashes, ear smacks, nose smashes, throat damage, groin attacks, these are the most important that stun or momentarily incapacitate a person in close-in fighting. Get the enemy blind or gasping and the advantage is yours. 

4) Improvise from local materials: The great thing about an urban built up area is the crap lying around ready for use in a fight. Learning to use improvised weapons is important, as well as defending agaisn them.  Personally I learned bokido style techniques but there are a lot of others that are weapons-based which can be applied to more effective use of your rifle other than a stab or buttstroke.

5) Learn to capture without killing: You will also need to be able disarm or immobilize your opponent so that they can be questioned; higher ups tend to get upset when all you have are untraceable dead bodies, as do civil police bodies, or it might be a suspect you just want to control without harming.  You shoud know some aikido or the close-in joint manipulation moves used by dozens of martial arts. 

6) Review your fighting gear capabilities: If you are wearing full tactical gear, where are your vulnerable areas? Most non-infantry soldiers (and even a infantry soldiers - note , this is pre-2001) I worked with knew only how to fight when wearing pants and t-shirts, and didnt change their ideas of fighting once they were fully dressed for combat.  There are certain combat moves that you cannot perform while wearing webbing or a full tact vest, or at least it throws off your balance.  There are also certain body areas protected when you wear different types of gear, so you can spend less time trying to protect them and focus on protecting other areas.  Further, learn what pieces of equipment can be used as effective armour or bludgeons.  If you can fight with improvised weapons, you are never unarmed!  (only outranged...)

7) Reference the one guys comment on depending on your buddies to help you - dont!  In close quarters fights, the kick-in of adrenaline causes tunnel vision.  All you know about is kicking the guys *** in front of you.  When the guy is down and out or dead, then you have time to look around and help others.  Only those who have a high level of experience in hand-to-hand combat or training in martial arts are able to avoid loss of situational wareness in a fight.  Even if you have that skill, its uncertain if the others on your team also have it (unless you are with the elite units).  Counting on others to pile-on is a standard police tactic for dealing with single difficult arrests and riot situations but doesnt work in H2H combat where the odds are usually 1-1. 



Good input.. i learned alot lol :) :salute:
 
Centurian1985 said:
7) Reference the one guys comment on depending on your buddies to help you - dont!  In close quarters fights, the kick-in of adrenaline causes tunnel vision.  All you know about is kicking the guys *** in front of you.  When the guy is down and out or dead, then you have time to look around and help others.  Only those who have a high level of experience in hand-to-hand combat or training in martial arts are able to avoid loss of situational wareness in a fight.  Even if you have that skill, its uncertain if the others on your team also have it (unless you are with the elite units).  Counting on others to pile-on is a standard police tactic for dealing with single difficult arrests and riot situations but doesnt work in H2H combat where the odds are usually 1-1.   

Actually, I said the most practical way get the help of a buddy when dealing with the situation. While it may not always be a viable option, we're expected and trained to depend on each other despite the adrenaline rush you'd get under contact at any range. Breaking out of hand to hand combat is should be no more complicated then finishing the enemy while in hand to hand combat, but it sure is safer to have a checked out fireteam partner put two in the chest of some angry axe wielding Taliban.

You're assuming that hand to hand combat would occur in a situation where the friendly position is being overrun, or we've just hopped into a soviet trench system. I'd say that a more likely scenario is that you're either trying to capture a specific individual (in which case we have the initiative, and can afford to send two troops to take one guy down), or some Taliban got caught by suprise and is probably isolated from his own gang. Or he's just some lone loony who probably doesn't expect to survive, like the axeman. An entire section getting in hand to hand combat at the same time is a VERY unlikely scenario.

Of course, I'm speculating here. But this is my impression of the situation in our current theatre of operations.
 
Wonderbread said:
Actually, I said the most practical way get the help of a buddy when dealing with the situation. While it may not always be a viable option, we're expected and trained to depend on each other despite the adrenaline rush you'd get under contact at any range. Breaking out of hand to hand combat is should be no more complicated then finishing the enemy while in hand to hand combat, but it sure is safer to have a checked out fireteam partner put two in the chest of some angry axe wielding Taliban.

You're assuming that hand to hand combat would occur in a situation where the friendly position is being overrun, or we've just hopped into a soviet trench system. I'd say that a more likely scenario is that you're either trying to capture a specific individual (in which case we have the initiative, and can afford to send two troops to take one guy down), or some Taliban got caught by suprise and is probably isolated from his own gang. Or he's just some lone loony who probably doesn't expect to survive, like the axeman. An entire section getting in hand to hand combat at the same time is a VERY unlikely scenario.

Of course, I'm speculating here. But this is my impression of the situation in our current theatre of operations.
in 3RCR, we trained our troops to go 2 on 1 for riot control, prisoner handling, and when attacked.

Unofficially, we trained the troops to pile on in any form of hand-to-gland, by the simple expedient of impromptu dog-piles at any opportunity. Most often occurring when the resident trained gorilla (a blond, blue-eyed gorilla) would proceed to maul someone for giggles. "You just gonna stand there, ****ee? Your buddy's getting his ass kicked! Git in there!"

When we were running rehearsals for a raid, my section was responsible to take someone down in order to inititate. We rehearsed it quite simply: I would put my hand out to shake, as soon as I had his right hand grasped, my partner would blind him with the spotlight he was carrying (okay, blind him and hit him in the face), and the two of us would subdue him. His partner would be taken down by three others in the section by just plain ol' jumpin' him, and puttin' the boots to him. The last two would be providing cover with their firearms.

The age-old tradition of "Let's git 'im" carried over into all of our training. As well as the concept of "Never go anywhere without your fireteam partner." They blend nicely.

This doesn't contradict any of the above posters, but it does show a slightly different perspective, I think.
 
OK, here we go again.

To the guy who said on SQ that they did unarmed combat for PT on fridays, pay attention. I am a CQC Instructor and I will state the policy. There is not to be any unauthorized close quarter combat training on course. END OF STORY. FULL STOP.

Currently we teach CQC Basic as part of PO 105 on the DP 1 Infantry Regular (Reservist can attend the DP 1 REG, apply through your chain of command). CQC Basic can also be taught to any unit that has the time and CQCI availible. On SQ there is neither the time nor is there the authorization for CQC training.

Any unauthorized CQC training during course time is forbidden. Now I happen to be a BJJ figher and kickboxer myself but I DO NOT incoporate any unauthorized techniques on the CQC basic. If you are teaching your "own stuff" be warned you will be discovered and you will be liable for your actions.

Also I will say again as I have said earlier that the old unarmed combat instructors course is not valid any more. Those personnel must now attend a CQCI conversion or attend the entire course.
 
:warstory:
well when i got to my parent regiment 8-ch after basic
we had a choice running,wheights, or un armed,,,
all the guys had some form of martial art or unarmed training
we swapped techniques,,forms,styles
invented styes..regardless
have my own style now retired
couple beer and mess with the nanjuckas
allways better the form
cheers lmao,,copy
 
Was reading this post, then seen the video. Thought I would bring the two together. The vid is somewhat related...

http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=716

J
 
If you want to learn an effective martial art for hand-to-hand, I suggest the martial art of Aikido. It's less about attacks and more about subduing your opponent but once you get good at it, you can defeat just about any other martial art....plus it's the martial art of the samurai...which is just sweet! lol
 

    -Cheers
 
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