Close Combat Vehicle: Canada to buy another AFV (& keeping LAV III & TLAV)

[tango22a]

Lordy, Lordy.....This thread just drips sarcasm!....though I agree with its tone.


tango22a

 

[OldSolduer]

Not ANOTHER "Peace" dividend.....

Look where the last one got us....

 

[tango22a]

I'll tell you what the so-called "Peace" dividend is going to get us:

-Minimisation of the CF
-Collapse of the PRes  (ALL Branches) due to funding constraints and the needs of the RegF to sustain itself.
-Run down of equipment holdings and spare part holdings ( just run 'em into the ground, then write them off. With NO replacements in the pipeline)
- cancellation of equipment contracts especially LAV refurbs and replacements and NO tank upgrades
-Draw down of manning levels to < 66% (mainly due to VRs and retirements and cutbacks in recruiting
- Moth balling and perhaps outright sale of Ships and Aircraft. Wouldn't be surprised if the c-177s, part of the c-130J purchase and some, if not all, Chinooks.
-Closure of CFBs and consolidation of services to maybe 6-8 major bases: Esquimalt, Wainwright/ Cold Lake, Winnipeg/Shilo, Petawawa, Valcartier/ Quebec, possibly Bagotville or Trenton, Gagetown and Halifax.
-Deferment of ANY major equipment purchases with a majority of the mobile equipment on a care and maintenance programme to reduce costs.
- Rampant growth of NDHQ to absorb RegF bodies from the CBGs and Land areas. "Never,never have so few been led by so many!!"

And the list goes on and on and..........

MARK MY WORDS......Though I truly hope in this case I am wrong!

The Bureaucrats are already squabbling over and dividing the money to be saved! This slippage on the CCVL is only the tip of the iceberg, Ladies and Gentlemen! "We don't need them because we are "Peacekeepers" and we are not involved in a "shooting" war" will be their rationale.


tango22a

Edited for clarity and spelling

 

[dapaterson]

On the other hand, devil's advocate here, isn't a bit of due diligence in order before spending $2 billion.

Or should we do like we did with the tanks, and drop $650M on tanks that won't be usable for 5+ years...

Just a thought...

 

[blacktriangle]

I'll tell you what the so-called "Peace" dividend is going to get us:

-Minimisation of the CF
-Collapse of the PRes  (ALL Branches) due to funding constraints and the needs of the RegF to sustain itself.
-Run down of equipment holdings and spare part holdings ( just run 'em into the ground, then write them off. With NO replacements in the pipeline)
- cancellation of equipment contracts especially LAV refurbs and replacements and NO tank upgrades
-Draw down of manning levels to < 66% (mainly due to VRs and retirements and cutbacks in recruiting
- Moth balling and perhaps outright sale of Ships and Aircraft. Wouldn't be surprised if the c-177s, part of the c-130J purchase and some, if not all, Chinooks.
-Closure of CFBs and consolidation of services to maybe 6-8 major bases: Esquimalt, Wainwright/ Cold Lake, Winnipeg/Shilo, Petawawa, Valcartier/ Quebec, possibly Bagotville or Trenton, Gagetown and Halifax.
-Deferment of ANY major equipment purchases with a majority of the mobile equipment on a care and maintenance programme to reduce costs.
- Rampant growth of NDHQ to absorb RegF bodies from the CBGs and Land areas. "Never,never have so few been led by so many!!"

And the list goes on and on and..........

MARK MY WORDS......Though I truly hope in this case I am wrong!

The Bureaucrats are already squabbling over and dividing the money to be saved! This slippage on the CCVL is only the tip of the iceberg, Ladies and Gentlemen! "We don't need them because we are "Peacekeepers" and we are not involved in a "shooting" war" will be their rationale.


tango22a

Edited for clarity and spelling

So pretty much business as usual pre 2005?

 

[brihard]

If the post-Afghanistan military pruning does start in the NCR, they're doing it wrong. Sorry, but I simply cannot conceive that all the overweight commands are needed. "Commander's intent";  the protection, through force or the credible threat thereof, of Canada's physical sovereignty and such national interests as are deemed by Parliament. Everything secondary to our ability to our ability to deliver sudden, deliberate, violent death to a specific time and place MUST be subordinate to that role.

Step on toes, offend people, crush bureaucratic empires. So be it. The individuals affected will find a way to make themselves useful to the CF in a new capacity (starting with passing an EXPRES test), or they can take their pension and bugger off. We're a small population with a huge geography and significant interests, and we punch above our weight, but we've been operating at a level not indefinitely sustainable. We need to expand our capabilities, and if it's to be a zero-sum game, so be it. Trim the fat.

 

[ballz]

The individuals affected will find a way to make themselves useful to the CF in a new capacity (starting with passing an EXPRES test)

That is pure f**kin gold haha

 

[dapaterson]

On the other hand, devil's advocate here, isn't a bit of due diligence in order before spending $2 billion.

Or should we do like we did with the tanks, and drop $650M on tanks that won't be usable for 5+ years...

Just a thought...

For the record:  I'm not arguing that the capabilites aren't needed - I'm arguing that the Army's track record is horrible - unable to plan properly, leaving us with 100 hanger queen Leo 2s because of our poor planning - so if we haven't gripped that part of the equation yet, how will adding 100+ more armoured vehicles help?

"The fault lies not with our stars, but with ourselves." wrote the Bard; although, in this case, perhaps a big part of the problem is our stars (or maple leaves...).

 

[OldSolduer]

I have to agree with dapaterson here.

We have met the enemy....and he is us!

 

[tango22a]

Brihard:

The problem is that there are TOO MANY vested interests concerned with maintaining things as they are. "Jobs for the BOYS" is one of them. If there are cutbacks to CBGs and Land Force Areas you will probably see an exponential increase to the manning tables of NDHQ to provide employment for those displaced. Cut operations to the bone but bloat up the HQs with unneeded bodies. It happens every time there is a draw down in operations.....BTDT!!


tango22a (Certified Cynic)

 

[tango22a]

Dapaterson:

Perhaps we should just scrap the Leos and write off our investment and our capabilities, limited as they are. Beating swords into plowshares should please the left-leaning bureaucrats. Any money saved could be invested in man-carried foot bridge sections, 'cause when they get done with US we are going to be a strictly Light Infantry Armed Forces since the bureaucrats feel that's the way we should be equipped since it's the CHEAPEST way to go!!!


Certified Cynic

 

[tango22a]

We might just consider MERX for 1/4 ton SMP, 3/4 ton SMP and 2 1/2 ton SMP because the bureaucrats feel that's ALL we need for viability!!


Certified Cynic

 

[McG]

We might just consider MERX for 1/4 ton SMP, 3/4 ton SMP and 2 1/2 ton SMP because the bureaucrats feel that's ALL we need for viability!!

To be fair, even back when there seemed to be all the money we could want, there was at least a health number of pers within the military wondering why we were throwing $2 billion at yet another vehicle at the same time as we were underfunding tanks (to the point were we will have an un-deployable training fleet), LAV III refit (to the point where not all vehicles will be upgraded and there will be an un-deployable training fleet), etc.

If this project is in danger, that is probably because the soldiers responsible for allocating those capital dollars have decided they can get better military value by instead investing CCV dollars in Leopard, LAV III, mortars, or some other such thing.

 

[dapaterson]

Sigh.  Who said cheapest?  Who said divest?

I'm saying the well-paid help in LStL and 17-18-19NT need to develop workable plans.  It is their job, after all.

So far, we grabbed a bunch of Leo 2s and parked them.  Incurring costs and not providing troops in Canada a training platform - or even, really, a timeline for when it will be realized.  Purchasing equipment without a plan serves no one's interests, costs significant dollars, and atracts OAG attention we can do without.

 

[tango22a]

Gentlemen:

Let's face it, somebody dropped the ball.......BIG Time!!!  All I know is that on civvy street he/she would surely be handed his/her walking papers. His/her immediate supervisors would be in for a major blast of s**t from on high. Will this happen in this case?.......Surely you jest! Everybody in the CoC is in default CYA mode.

Maybe if the CoC was given a major shakeup some of the dead wood would fall to the ground and be recognized for what it is. Saying "We blew it!" or "Would someone out there please show us how to budget" WON"T cut it this time.

If you merit the axe then you should get the axe, even if you are at a rarefied level in the CoC.


Certified Cynic

 

[Sprinting Thistle]

Unfortunately the CF is oriented towards commodity purchase rather than strategic long term planning.  Without a plan, how can the forces determine needs and allocate resources?  In the absence of a plan, the CF just buys things.  The government has not given enough direction to the CF on what it expects the forces to do.  The last such direction was the CFDS which is light on direction but heavy on commodity acquisition.  So, without governmental direction, the CF has not produced a strategic plan on where it wants to go now and into the future.  Force 2028 hasn't produced the necessary guidance.  And, there is a cascade effect.  Since the CF hasn't produced a strategic plan, the environmental commands are without direction.  They are then left to their own devices to plan acquisitions and assign resources within their area.  The staffs do the best they can within their areas but without clear direction and a plan to follow, how can they achieve efficiencies in effort and resources? 

 

[tango22a]

It all goes back to what I said in Reply #19: If you merit the axe you should get the axe regardless of position.

The RegF with cutbacks to Class B is forcing people to choose whether to CT or lose their job. This will cream off the best and brightest from the PRes and a major rebuilding will have to occur which will take years and may NEVER happen. With the draw down after Afghanistan, just you watch the CF's budget shrink dramatically! Why should soldiers suffer financial losses just because the CF cannot keep its house in order? Some of these people depend on their pay for school tuition,etc. If they can't pay their bills without  Class A pay, then you are going to see a lot of VRs as they are forced to seek other employment.

Somebody out there has got to step up and take responsibility for this massive upgefucht, and then another massive effort will have to be made to fix the problem......SOONEST!!


LET THE HEADS FALL WHERE THEY MAY!


Certified Cynic

 

[dimsum]

A bit of a thread hijack (thinking air vice land equipment), but with this coming I think/believe that the JUSTAS project *may* end up being delayed once again.  With the pullout of forces in Afghanistan, the biggest customer for our UAVs is gone and chances are the powers that be will be more reluctant to look at approving a large-scale project such as a UAV system.  The overland and maritime surveillance patrol missions, the expected missions for JUSTAS, can be done with Auroras, and while it's cheaper in the long run for UAVs, the upfront costs of infrastructure, systems, satellite bandwidth and other stuff may make people think twice when lives aren't necessarily on the line.

My  :2c:

 

[George Wallace]

A bit of a thread hijack (thinking air vice land equipment), but with this coming I think/believe that the JUSTAS project *may* end up being delayed once again.  With the pullout of forces in Afghanistan, the biggest customer for our UAVs is gone and chances are the powers that be will be more reluctant to look at approving a large-scale project such as a UAV system.  The overland and maritime surveillance patrol missions, the expected missions for JUSTAS, can be done with Auroras, and while it's cheaper in the long run for UAVs, the upfront costs of infrastructure, systems, satellite bandwidth and other stuff may make people think twice when lives aren't necessarily on the line.

My  :2c:

I am sure that they already had other plans for these systems before sending them off to Afghanistan.

 

[tango22a]

POST DELETED with Apologies To ALL especially Tango2Bravo for my RANT


tango22a