Close Area Suppression Weapon (was Company Area Suppression Weapon)

[daftandbarmy]

Ladies and Gentlemen
Come one, come all, and witness the marvel that is our procurement system!  Conceived as the "be all, end all" for infantry platoon support weapons that was thought of before combat in Kandahar, and deemed so important, that it was brought into service just as soon as we left combat.  That's right, it's the C16 AGLS!  Bigger, stronger and faster (and heavier!)  than anything we have ever had!  So good, we could not wait until our next deployment, we are implementing it now!  Write your MP, and thank him or her personally for the government expending millions of your dollars on a weapon system that the users neither desired or know how to use effectively.  Egos trump common sense once again as a complex and overly heavy weapon system will replace a simple and man-portable weapon system. 
If our robust soldiers can carry it beyond 50 metres from the truck, it will be worth its weight in gold.  Once again, the army shows its true colours in maintaining the aim of situating the estimate and ignoring the hard work, back-breaking effort and lives and blood spilled on the field of battle by bringing in a modern-day Ross Rifle that its prime user, the Infantry, has just collective just realised is too heavy to carry. 

Once again, we are ******.  Thank you kindly, motherlovers.  God bless the PBI.

You just don't understand, do you? The aim is not to give the infantry what we need in time of war, the aim is to spend millions of tax dollars in Quebec.  ;D

 

[Andyboy]

From my extremely limited perspective the capabilities of the system might make it worth humping. As for the manportability the spec calls for it to be broken into 3x30kg loads. I've (very briefly) shoudlered each load and it is manageable-i wouldn't want to do it for a living but it is doable. In practice I doubt the loads will be limited to 30kg but that is the baseline.

Anyway here are a couple of pics showing how the Germans and Swiss hump it.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[GAP]

Having humped a PRC-25 (23.5 lbs) on top of my ruck and all, I don't envy anyone having to haul this any distance.

 

[vonGarvin]

From my extremely limited perspective the capabilities of the system might make it worth humping. As for the manportability the spec calls for it to be broken into 3x30kg loads. I've (very briefly) shoudlered each load and it is manageable-i wouldn't want to do it for a living but it is doable. In practice I doubt the loads will be limited to 30kg but that is the baseline.

I could not disagree more.  3 x 30 kg loads = 90 kgs.  I think that's just the system itself, no?  Add onto that mass you're carrying such sundry items as your frag vest, your personal weapon and ammo, water, food, etc.  You carry more than 30 kg.  You see, many of us here do carry crap like this for a living.  Just because there is a pic of some Germans and Swiss dudes carrying the thing in a photo op...

Anyway, I've spoken more than enough on this.

 

[a_majoor]

I can find pictures of Russian and Chinese soldiers humping their AGL's as individuals, and I would doubt anyone on the receiving end of an AGS-17, AGS-30 or a QLZ-87 will enjoy the experience.

Since these weapons are sold on the international arms market and are eminently man portable (being just a bit larger and heavier than a C-6), my prediction is we will be receiving AGL fire much more often than we will be delivering it....

 

[57Chevy]

I could not disagree more.  3 x 30 kg loads = 90 kgs.  I think that's just the system itself, no?  Add onto that mass you're carrying such sundry items as your frag vest, your personal weapon and ammo, water, food, etc.  You carry more than 30 kg.  You see, many of us here do carry crap like this for a living.  Just because there is a pic of some Germans and Swiss dudes carrying the thing in a photo op...

Like this guy in the photo :camo:

 

[OldSolduer]

From my extremely limited perspective the capabilities of the system might make it worth humping. As for the manportability the spec calls for it to be broken into 3x30kg loads. I've (very briefly) shoudlered each load and it is manageable-i wouldn't want to do it for a living but it is doable. In practice I doubt the loads will be limited to 30kg but that is the baseline.

Anyway here are a couple of pics showing how the Germans and Swiss hump it.

Regards,
Andrew

You know I could care less what the Germans, Swiss, Americans or one horned one eared flying purple people eaters do. A 30 kg load equals 66 lbs, plus helmet, frag vest, LBV, ammo, pers wpn, now what does that equal?
And you've said you've shouldered it briefly, so what qualifies you  to say its "doable"?

 

[Journeyman]

I've (very briefly) shoudlered each load and it is manageable-i wouldn't want to do it for a living but it is doable.

I could not disagree more.

Thanks for reminding me why I seldom post on this forum.

If you're going to offer an inane and unqualified opinion to those who would have to do it for a living, and then sulk because you got called on your dumbass post.....please feel free to post even less often.  :

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Back on topic, all. 

 

[MarkOttawa]

From Defense Industry Daily:

Too Late? Canada’s CASW for 40mm GMGs
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Too-Late-Canadas-CASW-for-40mm-GMGs-06694/?utm_campaign=newsletter&utm_source=did&utm_medium=textlink&utm_term=Too%20Late?%20Canada%E2%80%99s%20CASW%20for%2040mm%20GMGs

...
The Americans have deployed 40mm GMGs from the outset of conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, mostly General Dynamics’ Mk19. That inventory is modernizing, as the USA has begun buying General Dynamics’ new STRIKER 40, with programmed airburst features. Others have been slower. Britain addressed this gap back in 2006, when it began ordering Heckler & Koch GMG systems to equip its Royal Marines. Canada has been much slower to react, but 8 years after its troops entered Afghanistan, the Close Area Suppression Weapon (CASW) project aims to give Canadians the same options that other militaries already enjoy…

The CASW Cock-Up

CASW has been cited, justly, as an example of ongoing, serious problems with Canada’s military procurement system [emphasis added]...

The $100 million CASW project began in 2004, and was originally slated for delivery in August 2006. While Canadians fought and died in Afghanistan, delivery dates kept slipping, first to summer 2008, then to late 2009, and now to 2012.

The key reasons were utterly bureaucratic. After initial delays, the competition had to be restarted in 2009, after Public Works Canada (which, oddly, has a role in Canadian defense buys) ruled that the sole bidder, Rheinmetall Canada, failed to provide enough information on the financial forms attached to its proposal. Rheinmetall Canada argued that it submitted a fully compliant bid, but that argument, and the needs of troops on the ground, were deemed irrelevant by Public Works Canada.

The procurement process was relaunched in summer 2009, and Rheinmetall Canada’s team was said to be the winner in early 2010, beating ST Kinetics’ CIS 40mm CSL in the relaunched CASW competition. The contract wasn’t announced until December 2010, however. The winner, HK’s 40mm Grenade Machine Gun is an excellent heavy weapon choice for infantry engagements, firing up to 340 grenades per minute that burst around enemies up to 1.5 km away. It is used by 16 militaries around the world.

By 2012, when HK’s GMGs finally enter Canadian service, Canada’s presence in Afghanistan is supposed to be a training-only presence. Program delays have ensured that these valuable weapons will arrive too late to make much of a difference to the multi-year mission, except as a base protection weapon.

A separate automatic grenade launcher competition is expected in future, for vehicle mounted weapons...

Mark
Ottawa

 

[GnyHwy]

Is there anyone out there that has given this weapon a fair shake?  I for one would like to see it in a Cbt Tm attack.

After having looked at this and other similar threads i.e. Infantry attack (which I have posted in), maybe labeling it a Plt weapon, or making the assumption that because it is dismountable it needs to be pepper-potted around is a cynical approach.

I see it as a Coy weapon for a Coy Hvy Wpns team.  It has a range of 2K and would likely be best suited for a fire base.  With a direct role it would be similar to a 50 cal minus some muzzle velocity.  The indirect role will need to be mastered and trusted but it is not much different than a mortar or old indirect 50 drills.

 

[vonGarvin]

I get the point of the article you posted, MarkOttawa; however, let us remember that those forces using the 40mm AGL also didn't have 25mm Chain Guns at a scale of issue of 1/section.


But yes, it has been a very slow process.

Is there anyone out there that has given this weapon a fair shake?  I for one would like to see it in a Cbt Tm attack.

What would it add to the fight that includes 155mm raining in from the sky, 120mm HEAT, 25mm HEI-T, etc etc?  I fear it's a solution looking for a problem.

I see it as a Coy weapon for a Coy Hvy Wpns team.  It has a range of 2K and would likely be best suited for a fire base.  With a direct role it would be similar to a 50 cal minus some muzzle velocity.  The indirect role will need to be mastered and trusted but it is not much different than a mortar or old indirect 50 drills.

I think you hit the nail on the head.  In terms of range, capabilities, etc, it  is more HMG than anything.

 

[Haletown]

What would it add to the fight that includes 155mm raining in from the sky, 120mm HEAT, 25mm HEI-T, etc etc?  I fear it's a solution looking for a problem.I think you hit the nail on the head.  In terms of range, capabilities, etc, it  is more HMG than anything.

Except when the lowly Company Commander can't get the 155 support or have a 120mm tube around  or whatever because folks higher up the Chain of Command deem the fire support request to be a lower priority than other current missions.

If it is a company weapon it is available when the Company Commander needs it . . .  no asking up the chain for support.

Same reason Platoons should still have their old fashioned 60mm mortars as rapid pocket artillery.

I'm old school when it comes to moving fire support forward not to the rear. Personal bias.

 

[vonGarvin]

Except when the lowly Company Commander can't get the 155 support or have a 120mm tube around  or whatever because folks higher up the Chain of Command deem the fire support request to be a lower priority than other current missions.

If it is a company weapon it is available when the Company Commander needs it . . .  no asking up the chain for support.

Same reason Platoons should still have their old fashioned 60mm mortars as rapid pocket artillery.

I'm old school when it comes to moving fire support forward not to the rear. Personal bias.

The example was in a combat team attack, not a company attack. 

But I too am all about integral fire support.

 

[a_majoor]

Everyone is for integral fire support, the more the merrier, but Technoviking has been leading the charge on the fact the CASW/AGL/GMG is simply not portable enough to be brought to the fight in the first place.

As Canadians, we do have the luxury of carrying a 25mm cannon with each mounted section, so perhaps the issue has been a bit masked by having LAVs handy, but should the troops have to dismount for extended periods due to terrain considerations, neither the 25mm nor the CASW will be avail for fire support; the LAV can't drive there and the troops will be unable to manpack the CASW/tripod and sufficient ammunition in any reasonable timeframe.

Now my POV is there are grenade launchers which ARE man portable (similar in size and weight to a GPMG), or weapons which can fill the man portable support fire role (small mortars, RPG's), so the search should have been for man portable weapons which provide the firepower and flexibility needed for the dismounted fight. A lot of time and money has gone downrange for very little result.

 

[Old Sweat]

Putting my cynical hat on for a minute, if the CASW is so good and so important, how come the procurement was not fast tracked? Look how quickly the tanks were brought back and the M777s purchased, and there are other pieces of kit, like artillery locating devices, counter-measure vehicles, improved UAVs and of course Chinooks and transport aircraft, that were obtained in very short order. What gives? Could it be that it is not an essential bit of war fighting kit? (Not quite a rhetorical question.)

 

[REDinstaller]

It might be that the CASW project wasn't high enough on the "eye candy" list. And the other items were procured as part of Troop protection or mobility aids.

 

[vonGarvin]

It might be that the CASW project wasn't high enough on the "eye candy" list. And the other items were procured as part of Troop protection or mobility aids.

It wasn't asked for by the troops over there, as there was no perceived gap, would be my guess.  Between the section, platoon and company weapons, there were found to be more than capable, IMHO. 

 

[REDinstaller]

And the need for water on ops out weighs the need for CASW, when you can hunker down and have a drink while the arty spools up.

 

[Kalatzi]

Hail Technoviking!

Once again, we are ******.  Thank you kindly, motherlovers.  God bless the PBI.

I read yesterday on CanadaNewswire a release from Rhinemetal CA announcing that BGEN Tremblay on retirement would be VP Bus dewvelopment for them

The change of command for LFQA was today.

I'm not triyng to call in an airstrike on myself, I'm sure that all is good.

Given the length of the project I can't help but roll my eyes though