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Class A service and AWOL

Eye In The Sky said:
Isn't the part in yellow the original question/topic?

It is, yes. And my point is that since something like duty for a Class A member falls within their expected training time, it isn't too much to ask and disciplinary measure up to and including AWOL are not to be unexpected. Somewhere along the line though it seemed to me that people were thinking duty was outside of the one night a week/one weekend a month thing and that we shouldn't punish someone for not attending something outside their expected working period. Technically, yes it is, but the expectation is not that the member will attend every day or night during that two week period. Hell, our duty NCOs don't even have a duty phone.
 
But how can you be AWOL if you didn't sign the pay sheet.

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meni0n said:
But how can you be AWOL if you didn't sign the pay sheet.
His point I think is less about fine legal distinctions and more about the obligations incumbent on leaders in the reserve force. The fact that the military justice system in this case (as in so very many others) fails to provide us the tools needed to help us do our jobs just means we have to rely on other resources.

In the case of class "A" members who don't come to work, I long ago concluded that the tool for the job was administrative: IC/RW/C+P/goodbye, just as any civilian employer would do.
 
CountDC said:
Duty Watch on a stone frigate could also be viewed as training in prep for when the nav-res mbr goes onto a real ship. 

Think of it this way:

Navy - Duty Watch on a ship
Army - Sentry Duty in the field

Seems to me that both are important and good training. 

I've never made a subordinate stand a sentry in the field when I'm in charge. Nor has anyone ever made me do a sentry shift (outside of stove watch). Granted my trade's situation is a little unique in that we are either supporting someone else and they typically provide the security, it's not a tactical exercise or we are so far away from the AO that we won't get bumped.

What I learned on my DP 1.0 course was that we were supposed to deploy with 1x C9 for security, establish a battle trench and a shell scrape every time we set up. I've been for almost 7 years and I've never seen it done. It's not a good use of time/morale, hell it's very rare that I'll even get blanks issued (which sucks). Therefore, why would I waste my subordinates time and unecessarily sleep fuck my troops? Everything is getting ripped down in 36 hours anyways and we've got a several hour drive ahead of us back to get the armoury. More then likely, one of my guys is going to have drive someone else's truck back because the guys attached to the infantry got sleep fucked. If anyone is bored they can mentor the new guy or the new guy can be mentored by a senior cpl. 

I don't need to question my troops ability to stay awake on a sentry shift, this was covered during BMQ, BMQ-L, BWW and DP 1.0. They aren't children and if they can't stay awake that then they shouldn't of passed and it's a failure on the training system. If/when they fall asleep on shift/sentry it can be dealt with accordingly. All they need to do is be able to do is stay awake and yell "Stand To". If there was an active enemy threat and we were "playing", actually issued ROE's and blanks then it'd be different story, but I'm not cocking my guys around for no reason.

MARS said:
Perhaps it is indeed a matter of "the Navy has always done it this way" and I am unsure as to how the other Elements run their show, but my NRD never had any of the fumble-fuck incidents that my neighbouring militia armouries did, with damage being done to the premises as a result of the bars being open and what I assume were less robust Duty Watches.

We have a commissionaire who does acess control and the other unit that I was in just locked their door from the outside and someone needed to let you in. If you came in late, then you needed to buzz in. In both units, I've never seen anyone break anything at the mess and I'm a very active participant of the mess.

Monsoon said:
In the case of class "A" members who don't come to work, I long ago concluded that the tool for the job was administrative: IC/RW/C+P/goodbye, just as any civilian employer would do.

Maybe, but if people don't want to show up to work after how much money/time we've invested into them then there are bigger issues at play. We don't really have extra bodies that we have the luxury of being able to kick people out. Class A should be exciting part-time career, but when it's the same BS over and over again, you can't get the time off for PLQ and the Reg-F won't process your CT/OT then it's no surprise that people pull pin shortly after University is done. Having to stand a duty watch for no real reason instead of doing the job you signed up for doesn't help.

 
Not sure how you can justify any of that. There is a minimum amount of time that a reservist is obliged to parade. Going even the administrative route just because someone didn't show up for a parade night is just ridiculous. There is a reason the military legal system won't entertain AWOL charges and trying to circumvent that by using administrative measures is dishonest and abusive. If the person is not fulfilling the minimal required obligations, that's why there is NES otherwise punishing people because they have lives and prioritize family and career above part-time class A when it's required is why this type of mindset needs to go/retire from the military.

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meni0n said:
Not sure how you can justify any of that. There is a minimum amount of time that a reservist is obliged to parade. Going even the administrative route just because someone didn't show up for a parade night is just ridiculous. There is a reason the military legal system won't entertain AWOL charges and trying to circumvent that by using administrative measures is dishonest and abusive. If the person is not fulfilling the minimal required obligations, that's why there is NES otherwise punishing people because they have lives and prioritize family and career above part-time class A when it's required is why this type of mindset needs to go/retire from the military.

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If Bloggins tells his chain of command ahead of time "I will not be available for the duty watch next Thursday", Bloggins is being responsible.  (Even if his reason is "The Teletubbies are coming to town, and I have a front row ticket.  No, I have no kids.")

If Bloggins is told and knows that he has the duty watch next Thursday, and calls in to say "A thousand pardons, but my house is currently on fire, so I shan't be able to attend" again, Bloggins is being responsible.

If Bloggins, knowing full well that he has been assigned the duty watch decides to just not show up and not tell anyone, then Bloggins is not being responsible.  And the CoC has an obligation to work with Bloggins to improve his performance.  And Bloggins' peers also have a vested interest in this as well, because if he bails without notice, they get stuck with his responsibilities.

So in that final instance, using administrative measures to get Bloggins in gear is entirely appropriate.
 
runormal said:
Having to stand a duty watch for no real reason instead of doing the job you signed up for doesn't help.

On the flip side of the coin...didn't we all sign up under the conditions of "Universality of service"?  And that would include...stuff outside of your trade stuff;  GDs, sentry is tasked for it, etc.  I've never been NavRes, but the idea that they run the Res side similar to the Reg side with duty watches isn't really that far fetched.  Doesn't the Army Res operate similar to the Reg Army?  Similarly, in the Air Force, both Reg and Res folks call each other by their first name, and get haircuts every 2 months if we need it or not.  RCN Reg and Res having 'duty watch' systems...I can see that.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5023-0.page

Principle of Universality of Service

Application: This is an order that applies to officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF members).

2.4 The principle of universality of service or "soldier first" principle holds that CAF members are liable to perform general military duties and common defence and security duties, not just the duties of their military occupation or occupational specification. This may include, but is not limited to, the requirement to be physically fit, employable and deployable for general operational duties.


 
Eye In The Sky said:
On the flip side of the coin...didn't we all sign up under the conditions of "Universality of service"?  And that would include...stuff outside of your trade stuff;  GDs, sentry is tasked for it, etc.  I've never been NavRes, but the idea that they run the Res side similar to the Reg side with duty watches isn't really that far fetched.  Doesn't the Army Res operate similar to the Reg Army?  Similarly, in the Air Force, both Reg and Res folks call each other by their first name, and get haircuts every 2 months if we need it or not.  RCN Reg and Res having 'duty watch' systems...I can see that.

I mean the reg-f army does duty watches for  what I believe to be a similar purpose, but we don't and there wouldn't be any value in doing it. No one else should be in the building outside our unit on our parade night. The amount of people parading or "special guests" showing up wouldn't warrant us to do it.

I don't see how the Nav Res can be drastically different than the Army Res on a parade night. To me it seems like the wrong time/place to do this. There's such a limited number of training opportunities for the p-res so to waste any of them to do access control to me seems like a complete waste of time. Again, having never served in the Nav Res all I'm assuming that the sailor is doing is sitting a chair and checking in ID's and calling up escorts as/when required.

It also seems odd that it's only an issue if you miss your watch but missing a parade night doesn't matter. I get that I OS Bloggins doesn't show up then it fucks up the whole flow of the training night and someone else needs to do OS Bloggins watch and now your down two students for a lesson/mandatory briefing. I also get that if OS Bloggins doesn't get in trouble then OS Smith might think that's it's ok to say "I'm not doing the the duty watch either." However, then it goes back to the question of "Why is there a duty watch in the first place and could everyone's time be better spent?"
 
It also seems odd that ....
....the two most vocal 'SMEs' on how the Navy Reserve should operate are 2 x Militia Sigs Cpls.


('Staying in your lane' -- what a concept)
 
CanadianTire said:
I'm not sure how duty NCO has become such a big deal or so construed that we're talking about it being an additional duty above and beyond or instead of regular training. When acting as duty NCO in my unit you are duty for "two weeks." All this means that on two Wednesdays you wear the duty NCO brassard, report to the duty officer, wear your headdress in the mess and don't consume alcohol. You're required to stay in the mess until 0100 (or the last member leaves, whichever is first) at which point the duty O relieves you and you've made an extra half days pay. During the training night, you still participate in your regular training.

On the third Wednesday, you hand over everything to the incoming duty NCO. The only other time you would actually be required to work outside of your regular training nights would be events like Remembrance Day (at which you would be present any way) or any mess events.

If you can't commit, it is your responsibility to find a replacement otherwise you could face disciplinary action.

As a current Class A Reservist and former Navy member if someone told me to do this I would tell them either to pound salt or I am not coming in those nights. Some of us actually have lives, personally I get up at 4 or 5 every morning to go work in a heavy industry job. Staying up to 10 or 11 on a parade night is hard enough, let alone going up to the mess, watching people get drunk, and having to stay up to 1am for no real reason.

Personally I show up more than the minimum, but no one should be penalized for showing up the minimum. Those people have met the commitment they agreed to and as such do not deserve to be punished for it. Maybe not prioritized for taskings and such, but actual charges and disciplinary measures are against what they agreed to.
 
First of all, just because I'm currently a reserve sig cpl doesn't diminish my opinion. I may be one now but I spent more than 10 years in the regs and wasn't always a Cpl but thanks for showing up with your prejudice of the reserves and trying to demean other people's opinions by telling them to stay in their lane.

Gof forbid there will be junior ranks that post on this forum and have different opinions than some of the dinausors that have outlived their existence that keep hanging on in the service.

Also if you don't like some our opinions then please contribute something meaningful to the discussion.
Journeyman said:
....the two most vocal 'SMEs' on how the Navy Reserve should operate are 2 x Militia Sigs Cpls.


('Staying in your lane' -- what a concept)

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meni0n said:
First of all, just because I'm currently a reserve sig cpl doesn't diminish my opinion. I may be one now but I spent more than 10 years in the regs and wasn't always a Cpl but thanks for showing up with your prejudice of the reserves and trying to demean other people's opinions by telling them to stay in their lane.

Gof forbid there will be junior ranks that post on this forum and have different opinions than some of the dinausors that have outlived their existence that keep hanging on in the service.

Also if you don't like some our opinions then please contribute something meaningful to the discussion.
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Upvote for you Corporal.


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meni0n said:
..... doesn't diminish my opinion.
Well, I know it's a repetitive expression from me, but "there are opinions, and there are informed  opinions."
You've made it obvious that you don't understand NRD operations, yet you still contribute to driving this to 3-pages of :deadhorse:

I assure you, it has nothing to do with "prejudice of the reserves"; in fact, in a thread about Army Reserve in general, or Signals Reserve in particular, your input may actually provide a useful contribution.  As it is, you're merely repeating "it doesn't work that way in my world, so you're a poor leader and you should change." 

Nonetheless, I'll move along and let you make the most of spamming an essentially Naval discussion.  Enjoy.


ps - For what it's worth, about one-quarter of my military career has been Reserve experience (but not in the Navy, so I stay in my lane -- and I'm not the slightest bit offended by that self-restraint), yet I can't imagine getting worked up about any Reg vs Res squabbles;  there are way too many other things in my life that are irritating that some "anti-Reserve prejudice" is remotely a priority.
 
Thanks for the drive by post. Not sure how you can group opinions of others in the uninformed category just because they're not part of the NRD. Last I checked, they're still part of theCF and have to follow the same rules and regulations as everyone else, be it army reserve or air reserve. The situation that we were discussing seems to be happening at more than one unit and the opinions given are pretty informed considering the demographics. The NRD is not special club that only those who have been part of it can have an informed opinion on.

Opinions given here were by junior ranks at reserve units in the CF based on the how the situation is perceived by us. 

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Naval Reserve Division (NRD) Duty Watches serve multiple training objectives.

Some of these bullet points are common to most NRDs :

- Inoculate sailors, to the traditions, roles and responsibilities of naval life.
• perform colours and/or sunset ceremonies, as directed,
• pipe the ship’s routine and any messages approved by the Officer of the Day (OOD),
• act as piping party for VIPs crossing the brow,
• all members must know the procedures found in the “Brow Pack”
• learn the watch and station bill system, and
• instill a sense of teamwork, responsibility and teamwork at the lowest levels.

- Immediate Emergency Reaction Team (IERT) to common emergencies.
Though these may not occur, there are many examples of them happening throughout my career.
• this task also simulate the emergency preparedness for shipboard life for fire, flood and medical emergencies, and
• NRD Training Department has occasionally run random emergency drills, in place of Sea Training.
The Duty Watch is expected to close up and  respond as if it was a real scenario. A valued part of training.

- Access control:
• 100% ID check of everyone entering the facility,
• signing any guests in/out,
• maintain access points in use (brow, parking lot, jetty ect…),
• control the issue / return of keys, and
• building security: opening, closing and routine rounds during training.

- Generate small work part tasking pool, as required.

- Other duties as assigned by the OOD.
• example: Ring the ship’s bell to keep the Sip’s time


In practice, as others have mentioned, the above is simple routine stuff, and are important items that must be covered off whenever the Ship’s Company is training (day or night). Through sharing best practices, many NRDs follow similar procedures, modifying areas unique to their needs. An experienced OOD will muster the watch and after Colours, will task the Watch as needed, usually by a set rotation. When not required for the Watch, a sailor will be expected to participate in the night’s regular training. All involved: the department, the sailor and OOD will ensure the task rotation minimizes interference with critical training periods. Though the potential exists for conflict to arise, and is sorted out. This too happens in a ship board environment.

At the start of the training year, most Duty Watches are overborne with untrained junior members double banked with trained sailors. The goal is to provide inexperienced pers with enough experience quickly enough to reduce reliance on the handful of experienced sailors at the NRD. When everyone in the Ship’s Company attends training, and performs their Watches as scheduled, the system works very well for NRDs and provides sailors exposure of what to expect when they reach the fleet. On the other hand, when an epidemic of “no attendance” is allowed to encroach, with or without notice, this stains the remaining members of the Ship’s Company, who must pick up the slack.

The most effective solution I witnessed was a multilayered approach to encourage attendance and compliance. Administrative Measures are only one tool. Others have mentioned other tools as well. Combining these methods and applying them consistently is the key to a successful training year with maximum participation, and a full Duty Watch.
 
meni0n said:
Thanks for the drive by post. Not sure how you can group opinions of others in the uninformed category just because they're not part of the NRD.

Among Army people, it's the Arty that I least comprehend. They're useful, and conducting Air OP missions was one of the many pleasures of flying Kiowas, but they are different.

Among the three environmental elements, it's the Navy that I least comprehend. They are far more different than the Arty could ever be.

So, the early posts on the Naval reserve part of this thread made no sense to me. Class A duty people? Trying to discipline them? Huh? Ludicrous, thought I.

Further explanatory put this into much better perspective, and Kratz has just given a complete explanation.

So, yes, it's a lane thing. Different communities operate differently, usually for good and valid reason - even though the "good" and "valid" may not be apparent to those from other communities.

Edited for clarity.
 
So, after all of the above, this is the solution I will provide to the XO/CO:

We will reinforce the responsibility of the Divisional Offr/PO to make their pers aware of upcoming duties; notwithstanding publication in ROs;
We will impose on the divisional system the obligation to ensure conflicts are resolved well before the scheduled duty;
We will ensure that members are reminded in a timely fashion that they have an upcoming duty;
We will restate the important part the member plays in ensuring they attend, arrange a replacement, or otherwise notify the RPO if they cannot attend their scheduled duty.

The responsibility to ensure the duty watch is attended by those identified for it starts with the DivO/Div PO, and ends with the member.
 
This is unrelated to the training merits of duty shifts in a concrete frigate, but I am curious about the section in bold below.

I serve as a reservist in a PRes Sqn of a RegF Regt.  I believe that the "unit" would, in fact, be the Regt and not the Sqn.  Is that correct?  Does this mean that I am always subject to the Code of Service Discipline?

Eye In The Sky said:
"60. (1) The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:

c.an officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force when the officer or non-commissioned member is

i.undergoing drill or training, whether in uniform or not,
ii.in uniform,
iii.on duty,
iv.[Repealed, S.C. 1998, c. 35, s. 19],
v.called out under Part VI in aid of the civil power,
vi.called out on service,
vii.placed on active service,
viii.in or on any vessel, vehicle or aircraft of the Canadian Forces or in or on any defence establishment or work for defence,
ix.serving with any unit or other element of the regular force or the special force, or
x.present, whether in uniform or not, at any drill or training of a unit or other element of the Canadian Forces;
 
runormal said:
having never served in the Nav Res all I'm assuming that the sailor is doing is sitting a chair and checking in ID's and calling up escorts as/when required.

It also seems odd that it's only an issue if you miss your watch but missing a parade night doesn't matter. I get that I OS Bloggins doesn't show up then it fucks up the whole flow of the training night and someone else needs to do OS Bloggins watch and now your down two students for a lesson/mandatory briefing. I also get that if OS Bloggins doesn't get in trouble then OS Smith might think that's it's ok to say "I'm not doing the the duty watch either." However, then it goes back to the question of "Why is there a duty watch in the first place and could everyone's time be better spent?"

There's an old saying "train the way you fight, fight the way you train".  :dunno:

I was posted 'ashore' to a Navy unit for a time;  I did Duty Watch (Roundsmen) in A Block (Stadacona).  Every hour or so, I had to do 'rounds' of the entire building in a pre-determined path using a rounds-clock, and turn a key in it and the rounds had to be completed in not less than 20 minutes.  I thought it was pretty stupid, until a few RCN co-workers explained how rounds on a ship work, and that to them it was just 'normal'.  Not really different than Fire Piquet in the army when at a biv site when the whole gang was co-located, or being in a Sqn Harbour or Troop Hide and having sentries out.  :2c:

meni0n said:
... just because they're not part of the NRD. Last I checked, they're still part of theCF and have to follow the same rules and regulations as everyone else, be it army reserve or air reserve... The NRD is not special club that only those who have been part of it can have an informed opinion on.

But here's the thing;  the RCN, Cdn Army and RCAF do not do things the same way.  I've worked for all 3 to one extent or the other and they operate differently.

3 bells/horns in the army - NBC alarm when I was in green DEU.  1 bell/horn...someone might have just broke noise discipline and the Tp WO or Patrol Cmdr is coming to pay them a visit.

3 bells in the Air Force - 'test'.  1 bell - a whole lot of people are dropping what they're doing to perform their '1 bell' duties.  1 bell is the worst thing I can hear where I work.  3 - the best.

Just some things to consider...
 
ModlrMike said:
So, after all of the above, this is the solution I will provide to the XO/CO:

We will reinforce the responsibility of the Divisional Offr/PO to make their pers aware of upcoming duties; notwithstanding publication in ROs;
We will impose on the divisional system the obligation to ensure conflicts are resolved well before the scheduled duty;
We will ensure that members are reminded in a timely fashion that they have an upcoming duty;
We will restate the important part the member plays in ensuring they attend, arrange a replacement, or otherwise notify the RPO if they cannot attend their scheduled duty.

The responsibility to ensure the duty watch is attended by those identified for it starts with the DivO/Div PO, and ends with the member.

Quick question if I may;  do all mbr's get Initial PDRs?  If the requirement was captured in that doc and the member was briefed on and signed, it seems it would be very easy to use the available informal and formal admin tools then to document (Div Notes, etc) shortcomings linked to "critical tasks/expected results" and up the ante when required. 
 
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