Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread

[rmc_wannabe]

Well I just watched two former heads of CSIS on TV comment on that and they both didn’t see an issue with this.

I think that may be downplaying the gravity of the situation a bit.

This isn't a "BOLO for White Toyota Truck" INTSUM we're talking about. I imagine the analysts may have been speaking through gritted teeth to protect their sources and the LPC et al, completely unserious in National Security matters, saw it as Chicken Little saying the sky was falling.

They went so far that it was normal and expected for anyone and especially politicians to challenge and question what they are briefed on.

Again, challenging and questioning means "I need more information" or "this doesn't smell right, let's get some more information so we can make a better decision".

This information was received, ignored, and buried until it was dredged up by the media.

The issue they said, was if it was a regular thing that happens over and over again.

gestures to everything happening since 2019 lot of one-offs here or nah?

 

[Remius]

I think that may be downplaying the gravity of the situation a bit.

There is no downplay. It was a commentary made on one part. Not the entirety.

This isn't a "BOLO for White Toyota Truck" INTSUM we're talking about. I imagine the analysts may have been speaking through gritted teeth to protect their sources and the LPC et al, completely unserious in National Security matters, saw it as Chicken Little saying the sky was falling.

Possible.

Again, challenging and questioning means "I need more information" or "this doesn't smell right, let's get some more information so we can make a better decision".

Possible as well. But they were clear to explain that intelligence does not always equate to evidence.

This information was received, ignored, and buried until it was dredged up by the media.

Based on leaks that may or not have been accurate but we don’t know.

gestures to everything happening since 2019 lot of one-offs here or nah?

I’m relaying their analysis of what was said in relation to the post you made. Take it any way you wish.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I’m relaying their analysis of what was said in relation to the post you made. Take it any way you wiwish.

For clarity sake, not coming at you for this.

I just have a lot of doubts this is a business as usual situation, otherwise it wouldn't have been buried as quickly and as deeply as it was and the opposition parties wouldn't have been hounding the Government for an inquiry if these dealings were common place in nomination practices.

I have my doubts, and yes intelligence isn't evidence, but it definitely has its merits when listened to and damages when ignored.

 

[lenaitch]

intelligence isn't evidence

Admittedly I haven't been following this breathlessly, but the theme I've been hearing is there wasn't hard evidence of 'y' doing 'x' so they didn't do anything with the information. Gathering and actioning intelligence isn't criminal law. I get the sense that too many people who were receiving and dealing with intelligence information had no clue about the intelligence process, including some people by their position should know better.

I watched snippets of the PM on the news. He had an odd look on his face. He seemed to be staring into middle space. I don't know if this is his look when he is trying the form a response, trying to remember what his handlers coached him, or this is way of avoiding saying something partisan or flippant.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I watched snippets of the PM on the news. He had an odd look on his face. He seemed to be staring into middle space. I don't know if this is his look when he is trying the form a response, trying to remember what his handlers coached him, or this is way of avoiding saying something partisan or flippant.

I got the impression he was desperately trying not to deviate from his script, while also trying to not get tripped up and flustered by the Committee.

You're right about his eyes, though. Like he was trying to avoid a tell in poker...

 

[TacticalTea]

there wasn't hard evidence of 'y' doing 'x'

Reminds me of Iraq.

Canada's pompousness at having "accurately predicted" there would be no WMDs in Iraq has always irked me.

I know people make fun of Rumsfeld, but unknown unknowns are real. And this is one of those cases where you don't get to err on the side of willful ignorance just because it happens to be electorally convenient.

 

[OldSolduer]

Admittedly I haven't been following this breathlessly, but the theme I've been hearing is there wasn't hard evidence of 'y' doing 'x' so they didn't do anything with the information. Gathering and actioning intelligence isn't criminal law. I get the sense that too many people who were receiving and dealing with intelligence information had no clue about the intelligence process, including some people by their position should know better.

You, sir, won the internet for the next hour.

To add, intelligence is more of a prediction than a definite "this will happen" and actually is "there is a good probability that this may happen".

Information is just that - information. Intelligence is a process that not many understand.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

To add, intelligence is more of a prediction than a definite "this will happen" and actually is "there is a good probability that this may happen".

Information is just that - information. Intelligence is a process that not many ununderstand.

Exactly this.

Intelligence weighs heavily on the balance of probabilities (hence, Enemy COA most dangerous vs most likely). It gives you enough of a picture to make sure your actions factor in the risks and threats out there. We all know this, or ought to know this, in our line of work.

In the situation presented with the Foreign Interference situation/Han Dong situation, you don't need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is going to be a criminal act committed to be prudent. You can take that intelligence and use it to mitigate risk, provide transparency, or even... hear me out.... maintain accountability by stating you know what's going on around you.

Imagine, dream with me for a second, if the PMO was open from Day One upon receiving this intelligence from CSIS:

-"Hey LPC folks, what the fuck? Let's make sure we're keeping on top of this."

-"Hey CPC, NDP; FYSA. We're doing what we can, you do what you can.
We'll keep you in the loop"

-"My fellow Canadians.. democracy... foreign actors.... doing our best... ensure elections are fair... pillar of democracy...."

-"China, hi there.... we're summoning your ambassador. We want to go over a few things, take a seat..."

Simple actions, while highly aggrandized for hyperbole sake, would have done more to ensure a fair election, more to instill faith in our democracy, and done more to strengthen Canada than anything Trudeau and the Liberals have done in 9 years.

Instead, here we are listening to actual children explain why they broke Mom's vase, but didn't think it was a big deal to tell anyone or clean it up until Dad got a shard stuck in his foot and noticed.

Its depressing really.

 

[OldSolduer]

I said a number of years ago when Chretien was making overtures to China and he was basically telling us China was a big friendly nation - and they have really cool bears they let us borrow -that it was a mistake. Why were we making overtures to a nation that imprisons its citizens because they have a differing view - remember Tienamin Square - and trying to make inroads with them? Now we have real trouble...

 

[Kirkhill]

Nothing to see here....

All good pals thegither

China flooding Britain with fake stamps in act of ‘economic warfare’

Major suppliers offer to print up to one million Royal Mail counterfeits for 4p each

www.telegraph.co.uk

China is behind the scourge of counterfeit stamps flooding Britain and landing victims with £5 penalties, The Telegraph understands.

Sources close to Royal Mail said that forgeries from the Communist country were behind a rise in complaints that letters sent with stamps bought from legitimate stores were being flagged as fraudulent.

Security experts and MPs described the mass forgery as an “act of economic warfare” and akin to “printing counterfeit money”.

It is understood that the convincing forgeries are being bought unwittingly by small retailers, who are not required to buy stamps directly from Royal Mail and can instead source them from wholesalers in bulk.

It comes after the Royal Mail last week launched a review into its new barcoded stamps amid fears customers are wrongly being forced to pay £5 to collect letters.

The Government last month revealed that China was behind a cyber attack on the Electoral Commission that compromised the data of 40 million voters, and concern in Whitehall that China was behind social media attacks on the Princess of Wales.

No reason to concern ourselves with the Chinese.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Wait... People still buy stamps ?

 

[Haggis]

Wait... People still buy stamps ?

Yup! And to communicate with the GoC no less. I had to file an appeal with VAC and the instructions on how to do so were explicit - by mail. This morning, I received a message, electronically, that I should have a decision in about 12 weeks.

 

[dimsum]

Wait... People still buy stamps ?

I had to mail stuff a few times this year to an insurance company.

 

[OldSolduer]

Wait... People still buy stamps ?

Yes some of us do. So there nanny nanny boo boo

I know it’s immature but damn it’s fun.

 

[Rifleman62]

Testimony: Trudeau was briefed verbally. He doesn't read (reports).

A lazy F--K.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Wait... People still buy stamps ?

Dude... we're talking about the UK here...

The Post Office is practically an officially recognized religion


How consumers use and value post offices and Post Office services today

This report is a comprehensive review of how consumers are using post offices in 2017. The findings are from a research study undertaken for Citizens Advice, which included 2,000 interviews with consumers and 1,000 interviews with small businesses. We have found that despite significant changes in the post office network and wider society, the vast majority of consumers (97%) and small businesses (93%)still use post offices. Most are frequent users and visit once a month or more often. Consumers told us they value the diverse range of services provided through post offices. Mail services are still used more than any others, and stamps and letter postage are purchased most frequently. However, today parcel posting and mail order transactions are increasingly common.1 in 5 consumers use a post office to withdraw cash from their bank account, and take-up may increase as bank branches continue to close. But far fewer people now withdraw their state benefits and pensions in cash from a post office. Despite an overall decline in government-related transactions at post offices ,consumers make significant use of government application services. For example, half say they pick up government forms and use the passport application checking service. Far fewer consumers pay their bills or transact with their local councils through post offices. Although post offices are important for most consumers and small businesses, the research shows us that they are especially crucial in rural areas and for vulnerable groups including older people and people on low incomes. t is also clear from the findings that distinct demographic groups use post offices differently. Younger people and those on higher incomes use parcel and mail order services more than other groups. Older people and those on low incomes make greater use of cash and banking services and bill payments. The more vulnerable groups and remote rural residents make most use of a post office for informal community services like support and information or as a place to meet other local residents and friends.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/Global/CitizensAdvice/campaigns/Post/Consumer%20Use%20of%20Post%20Offices%20Summary%20Report.pdf

 

[OldSolduer]

You, sir, won the internet for the next hour.

To add, intelligence is more of a prediction than a definite "this will happen" and actually is "there is a good probability that this may happen".

Information is just that - information. Intelligence is a process that not many understand.

I want to add you see or hear an intelligence report every day

The weather forecast

 

[lenaitch]

This report is a comprehensive review of how consumers are using post offices in 2017. The findings are from a research study undertaken for Citizens Advice, which included 2,000 interviews with consumers and 1,000 interviews with small businesses. We have found that despite significant changes in the post office network and wider society, the vast majority of consumers (97%) and small businesses (93%)still use post offices. Most are frequent users and visit once a month or more often. Consumers told us they value the diverse range of services provided through post offices. Mail services are still used more than any others, and stamps and letter postage are purchased most frequently. However, today parcel posting and mail order transactions are increasingly common.1 in 5 consumers use a post office to withdraw cash from their bank account, and take-up may increase as bank branches continue to close. But far fewer people now withdraw their state benefits and pensions in cash from a post office. Despite an overall decline in government-related transactions at post offices ,consumers make significant use of government application services. For example, half say they pick up government forms and use the passport application checking service. Far fewer consumers pay their bills or transact with their local councils through post offices. Although post offices are important for most consumers and small businesses, the research shows us that they are especially crucial in rural areas and for vulnerable groups including older people and people on low incomes. t is also clear from the findings that distinct demographic groups use post offices differently. Younger people and those on higher incomes use parcel and mail order services more than other groups. Older people and those on low incomes make greater use of cash and banking services and bill payments. The more vulnerable groups and remote rural residents make most use of a post office for informal community services like support and information or as a place to meet other local residents and friends.

I wonder if private courier services have less market penetration there, or are legislatively restricted.

Basic banking services are a missed opportunity here. Banks have been closing small town branches at a significant rate. In some rural and northern locations, the next branch can be a significant distance away. An ATM can't do everything, some older customers are uncomforatble with the technology of online banking, and no everyone has adequate bandwidth anyway.

 

[dimsum]

Testimony: Trudeau was briefed verbally. He doesn't read (reports).

A lazy F--K.

Don’t misconstrue this as me defending him, but being briefed verbally (presumably by your SME) doesn’t necessarily make someone lazy.

Coming from someone who makes reports, I understand why someone would rather be briefed. A report is one-way while the brief would offer chances for questions, clarification, etc. Kind of like how calling someone (or going to their cubicle) usually works things out faster than email tag.

This would be especially true for someone with literally a country’s worth of topics to understand, even at an inch-deep level. I would want to be briefed verbally by my SMEs too.

 

[RangerRay]

I would like to know how the PM and PMO determined that the intelligence was wrong. Did Trudeau ask Xi and he said “No”. Did Trudeau believe Xi because he was “strong” and believed him over CSIS?