Challenger/"VIP" Jet/CF Chopper Use (CDS, others) [merged]

[Edward Campbell]

He was on leave approved by a CF leave pass so the DND was footing the bill.  Our transport aircraft have a spot for stretchers.  Getting home was in the interest of all involved.

But the media still has an infatile infatuation with each MPG of AVGAS burned in the last couple months.... :waiting:

There's the right word: infantile. The journalists who are milking this are doing so because they know they can "manufacture" some outrage or controversy where none should exist. Their aim, their sole aim, is to get their 30 seconds of national TV exposure or their 'byline' on the front page - it is, for them, a survival tactic. There are plenty of pretty faces out there with good speaking voices who are ready, willing and able to snap up the "air time." The journalists and editors reckon that we, the readers and viewers, are not smart enough to sit still and read/listen to/watch real analyses of really important issues; they reckon we would rather be titillated and even shocked by the comings and goings of celebrities, crooks and politicians (who re regard as a bit of each).

Maybe they (the journalists and editors) are right; maybe we are a bunch of celebrity obsessed boobs and maybe they, the media, are giving us what we want.

But, maybe infantile applies to us,, not them.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I guess some reporters didn't catch this bit in the new Backgrounder from the CF Info-Machine:

.... 412 (T) Squadron maintains its own current tables on the cost of flying the CC-144 Challenger, an aircraft assigned to transporting senior government officials, providing command and liaison, and conducting medical evacuations ....

I wonder if this'll come up in Question Period today - or is someone in the Opposition staff going to advise the Opposition politicians, 'uh, you KNOW you're going to get slammed for not supporting the troops on this one, right?"

We'll see....

 

[ModlrMike]

Why is Mr Fife so interested in making us look bad. When you read the story, you're left with the impression that this was a completely frivolous, and unnecessary flight. A position reinforced by the closing comments from the NDP.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Why is Mr Fife so interested in making us look bad. When you read the story, you're left with the impression that this was a completely frivolous, and unnecessary flight. A position reinforced by the closing comments from the NDP.

Fife is one of the (many?) Harper haters in the parliamentary press gallery - going all the way back to 2006 when (then newly minted) Prime Minister Harper fundamentally changed the PM/press gallery relationship. Harper doesn't like the press corps; they return the favour.

Wasn't there a dust up between CTV and Harper over a (year end?) interview because Harper wouldn't allow Fife?

But it goes further: the media should expose government waste, inefficiency and, above all, corruption when they find it. It is, as we've discussed before, too easy to sensationalize Challenger costs, especially when, as about 99% of journalists do, one ignores the context of the Challenger use. Harper, MacKay, other ministers, Gen Natynczyk and other public servants are fair game; but Fife and CTV are stretching it when they go after a MEDEVAC flight. But (another but) they are counting on the fact - and I believe it is a fact - that 99% of Canadians, like 99% of journalists are immune to context.

 

[Old Sweat]

Also, with a weak and divided opposition, the media can see themselves performing a legitimate duty to the country in holding the government accountable. That they are doing this to the Conservatives adds a certain je ne sais quoi to their unctuous self righteousness.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

I wonder what  was more cost effective?
Pay  the US hospital bills till he was healed or recovered enoughto fly on a normal flight home to a hospital or send the jet and a medical crew to bring him home to a Canadian hospital. The news reporter does not tell the whole story, the fact that DND covers the bills for full time members medical issues. No matter what  this was going to cost the tax payer. I am sure the jet was cheaper than a long recovery period in a US hospital
Waste of tv news time and one last quest are the CF Challengers all painted black like the one in the news story on ctv?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I wonder what  was more cost effective?
Pay  the US hospital bills till he was healed or recovered enoughto fly on a normal flight home to a hospital or send the jet and a medical crew to bring him home to a Canadian hospital. The news reporter does not tell the whole story, the fact that DND covers the bills for full time members medical issues. No matter what  this was going to cost the tax payer. I am sure the jet was cheaper than a long recovery period in a US hospital
Waste of tv news time and one last quest are the CF Challengers all painted black like the one in the news story on ctv?

All the pics I have seen, they are either grey or white....

 

[Loachman]

Not to mention that, during any "long recovery period in a US hospital", he's away from family and friends and surrounded by strangers.

And the Challenger crew gets boxes checked off on their currency board, and the beneficial experience of instrument flight and approaches in foreign airspace, while helping somebody out rather than doing the same thing empty.

An empty seat is a wasted seat. Instrument training trips - required to maintain currency - in Tac Hel (for example) involve flying to different airports in order to do instrument approaches at them, as every one is different and doing the same one available at one's home base over and over again has no training value. One can pick airports at random and fly around empty, or one can fly to a place where somebody needs to go. The crew gets their IF time and approaches in, and somebody gets a free ride instead of billing the taxpayer for a commercial flight, car rental, or whatever other means would be deemed appropriate.

Everybody wins.

 

[Staff Weenie]

While I don't have dollar figures available for this case, I know from experience that arranging these flights, either on contracted private services, or through the purchase of a block of seats on a civy aircraft, and hiring the Flight Nurse & team, etc,  is very expensive. Ground transport over a significant distance is not easy on a patient, and uncomfortable for all involved.

Using a Challenger benefitted the patient - the most important factor, provided experience for the flight crew, and the medical personnel, and may well have saved the taxpayer in the long run.

 

[krustyrl]

I completely agree..... (Fife, ya listening.??  )    :

 

[OldSolduer]

While I don't have dollar figures available for this case, I know from experience that arranging these flights, either on contracted private services, or through the purchase of a block of seats on a civy aircraft, and hiring the Flight Nurse & team, etc,  is very expensive. Ground transport over a significant distance is not easy on a patient, and uncomfortable for all involved.

Using a Challenger benefitted the patient - the most important factor, provided experience for the flight crew, and the medical personnel, and may well have saved the taxpayer in the long run.

Not to mention its the right thing to do for the soldier...I would hope they'd do that for all CF members. :2c:

 

[ballz]

A few years ago I remember reading (I believe on army.ca) a news story about how some Edmonton-area soldiers were arriving in Edmonton at the end of their Afghanistan tour.

It was a "feel-good" story about how instead of making a few soldiers who lived away from Edmonton stay the night and take the ~5 hr bus to see their families the next morning, an officer showed up in a helicopter to pick them up at the Edmonton airport and fly them back to (IIRC) Wainwright.

Funny how this was such a positive story about good leadership and about supporting the troops back then... I wonder if Robert Fife is reading this post and if he's going to go try and dig the story up and put his own spin on it.

 

[acen]

I have it on good authority that nearly 2/3 of flying hours are for medevac. Keep in mind that the voyage out to get said individuals is considered "empty flying time", so the number of flying hours without a passenger is very much inflated.

 

[WingsofFury]

All the pics I have seen, they are either grey or white....

Blue and white actually...not trying to nitpick, just an fyi.

I'm somewhat surprised by Marc Garneau's comment about this, given that had such an occurrence ever happened to him while he was on active duty service he would have loved to be picked up by an airplane and transferred back home to recover.  Also the fact that he's ex Navy might have something to do with the fact that he never saw this scenario play out during his service....not to mention the fact that he was working in Ottawa for six years before retiring while we were actually procuring the Challengers...can I roll my eyes now?  :

I'm extremely shocked to hear the NDP'ers comment though...

The fact that an injured soldier heals better at home aside, which we all know is true, how can they think that he'd receive affordable, adequate care for his injuries in the US where everything is incredibly expensive, including specialists to look after Capt. Hunter's injuries?

I can see it now...if he hadn't been brought back home then the NDP would be complaining that we don't use Challengers for one of their intended roles in providing medevac capabilities to our soldiers and that we'd rather leave our uniformed troops in American care because Canadian care just isn't good enough and as such the gov't wants to privatize it all....

Glad that Captain Hunter is home safely and recovering from what I'm sure is a very painful injury.

 

[Arctic Acorn]

The fact that it was just the right thing to do aside, it would have been extremely expensive to leave him there.

I know of an individual who was in Tampa for a planning conference when he was admitted to the hospital for a couple days of observation for a heart issue. He was eventually released but the stay (with all the specialists he had to see, tests, etc) ran into the tens of thousands of dollars. He was there on TD. A year later he's still trying to sort it out between the system and the US hospital. A stay of a couple of weeks in a US hospital can rack up a lot of zeros in the US, which as Canadians we don't really consider.

I agree, no context. I do find it a little surprising over Marc Garneau's reaction. If anything, he should know that as a CF member the guy is covered 24/7. You can't tell me he's never heard of a situation where a Canadian sailor on leave gets injured in a foreign port and has to be flown home.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I'm somewhat surprised by Marc Garneau's comment about this, given that had such an occurrence ever happened to him while he was on active duty service he would have loved to be picked up by an airplane and transferred back home to recover.  Also the fact that he's ex Navy might have something to do with the fact that he never saw this scenario play out during his service....not to mention the fact that he was working in Ottawa for six years before retiring while we were actually procuring the Challengers...can I roll my eyes now?  :

I'm extremely shocked to hear the NDP'ers comment though...

The fact that an injured soldier heals better at home aside, which we all know is true, how can they think that he'd receive affordable, adequate care for his injuries in the US where everything is incredibly expensive, including specialists to look after Capt. Hunter's injuries?

I can see it now...if he hadn't been brought back home then the NDP would be complaining that we don't use Challengers for one of their intended roles in providing medevac capabilities to our soldiers and that we'd rather leave our uniformed troops in American care because Canadian care just isn't good enough and as such the gov't wants to privatize it all....

Glad that Captain Hunter is home safely and recovering from what I'm sure is a very painful injury.

:+1:  Here's hoping some MSM run with this angle.

All the pics I have seen, they are either grey or white....

Blue and white actually...not trying to nitpick, just an fyi.

Red & white, actually - the only blue's in the RCAF roundel.  Pix here, including the black/charcoal version.

 

[Good2Golf]

...I'm somewhat surprised by Marc Garneau's comment about this, given that had such an occurrence ever happened to him while he was on active duty service he would have loved to be picked up by an airplane and transferred back home to recover.  Also the fact that he's ex Navy might have something to do with the fact that he never saw this scenario play out during his service....not to mention the fact that he was working in Ottawa for six years before retiring while we were actually procuring the Challengers...can I roll my eyes now?  : ...

The RCN Commander's oft touted "Maritime Blindness" didn't occur just from the "outside" inwards...

: x 2

 

[Edward Campbell]

I spend a fair amount time in the USA and, as a result of an experience that befell an acquaintance, I decided to do a quick "staff check."

I called Air Canada who told me that, while each situation is different, I should consider the cost of three business class seats, plus a stretcher fee, plus the cost of a private duty nurse, including her return airfare. They do not like doing MEDEVAC but can and will. Their preference is to accept only a passenger and a private duty nurse who can travel in two business class seats  - in my case, assuming I would not need a stretcher for a three hour flight, that would come to, about, $5,000.00 as a baseline planning figure - a stretcher case could, if possible at all, easily cost $10,000.00 or more.

I then talked to our local (Texas) hospital who told me what an ICU bed costs an uninsured foreigner.

Air Canada is cheaper.

My friends and I now plan, as our 'best' contingency, an Air Canada flight with a private duty nurse.

By the way, I am way over 65 so most travel insurance plans are so "covered" with fine print exceptions as to be nearly useless.

 

[The Bread Guy]

A reminder:  in order to facilitate dialogue between those who research and write the stories and those who read them, there's a "Feedback" button at the bottom of the story in question - click here to provide said feedback on this particular story.  I'm hoping new information from people who know what they're talking about can help provide more context and a better story.

 

[WingsofFury]

Red & white, actually - the only blue's in the RCAF roundel.  Pix here, including the black/charcoal version.

Respectfully sir, they're actually midnight blue.  They do appear to be black because the shade of blue is extremely dark.