Challenger/"VIP" Jet/CF Chopper Use (CDS, others) [merged]

[dapaterson]

The RCAF annual operating plan includes planned YFR allocations for each fleet.  That gets managed to deliver the required training, proficiency maintenance, and support that's mandated.

 

[ballz]

Have the number of hours spent "flying empty" for crew training by aircraft type ever been published, or estimated?

The CDS said that last year the Challenger flew 170 hours empty in the CTV interview, so they must be somewhere?

 

[The Bread Guy]

For the record, what the Minister had to say in Question Period yesterday here (Hansard):

Mr. Speaker, with respect to the question from the hon. member, I was in fact in Gander in July of 2010, on a personal visit with friends for which I paid. Three days into the visit I participated in a search and rescue demonstration with 103 Squadron of 9 Wing Gander. I shortened my stay by a day to take part in that demonstration and later flew on to do government business in Ontario .... I think I just explained that I shortened a personal visit to take part in a search and rescue demonstration in Gander.  Had any emergency requirement arisen that would have required search and rescue assets, they would have of course been immediately diverted.  As the member would know, having participated in the parliamentary program with the Canadian Forces, members of Parliament, in fact 20 including himself, took part in search and rescue activities in the past. I am very proud of the work of the Canadian Forces, particularly those who take part in search and rescue.  Canada has a rescue area of responsibility of over 18 million square kilometres of land and sea, the size of continental Europe. Our Canadian Forces and Coast Guard partners respond to more than 8,000 incidents every year, tasking military aircraft for over 1,100 cases, and in fact save on average 1,200 lives each and every year.  I think that as Minister of National Defence I should familiarize myself at every opportunity with the important work of those who perform these daily heroics .... I am very proud of the work of the Canadian Forces. I have observed the work they do in Operation Nanook in the Arctic. I have observed search and rescue activities. I have observed live fire operations, as have members of the opposition who take part in the parliamentary Canadian Forces program.  I can confirm that all government departments are looking at their departments for efficiencies, as Canadians would expect them to do, as Canadians and businesses themselves are doing .... the parliamentary program put on by the Canadian Forces every year has the enthusiastic participation of members of Parliament, including members of the opposition.  I note that the member for Abitibi—Témiscamingue took part this year in the program that was put on by the air force. I suspect she may have availed herself of a Canadian Forces asset at that time.  This is a great opportunity for members of Parliament to see first-hand the important, critical, life-saving work that the men and women in uniform perform each and every day on behalf of our country.

Meanwhile, is anyone else sensing a media trend here?

A retired major general and an Ontario Conservative MP successfully lobbied National Defence last year for the use of a C-17 heavy-lift transport plane to move a donated fire truck to the Dominican Republic over the objections of the air force.

Both Defence Minister Peter MacKay and the country's top military commander, Gen. Walt Natynczyk, signed off on the charity request, even though senior staff warned most transport flights were stuffed full with war supplies for Afghanistan and no training flights were slated to go the Caribbean resort island. Critics said Thursday that it adds to the growing list of questions about the use of government aircraft, including revelations that MacKay was picked up by a search and rescue helicopter following a vacation.

In objecting to the charity request, air force planners noted there are exceptions that allow for specific aid flights. "The airlift of a fire truck to the Dominican Republic does not fit the definition of a humanitarian effort as there is no immediate life-saving or relief of suffering attributable to its provision," said a Nov. 19, 2009 briefing note prepared for Natynczyk, obtained by The Canadian Press. The report went on to say that the Defence Department had to be careful not to set a precedent ....

The Canadian Press via Winnipeg Free Press, 22 Sept 11

 

[OldSolduer]

It seems that the media (maybe with some help?  :Tin-Foil-Hat: ) is out to get not only the CDS but the MND as well.

As I have said earlier, there is a far more serious issue before the the Government of Canada. That is the issue of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Foreign Affairs who allegedly had an affair with a foreign journalist. How much have you heard or read about that?

Ezra Levant had a column in the Sun earlier this week about this affair, but since then? Zilch.

Its easier to pick on a target that no matter what is said in its defence, will look like a cover up.

There is a letter to the editor in the Winnipeg Free Press that sums up the attitude shown towards the CDS. The writer scolds the CDS, but makes no mention of the cancelled holiday to attend a repatriaton ceremony in Trenton for our fallen soldiers.

 

[cudmore]

It's no secret that media organizations DO, indeed, pay for our seats on the Airbus. 
The PMO pays DND for the plane (unlike with the Challengers, as I understand it), and the PMO breaks down the cost and roughly splits it up.
They publish to media agencies before the trip, and then agencies decide whether to buy a seat.
The costs aren't outrageous.  But they're not cheap either.

 

[Privateer]

Maybe this has all been finessed by the PM to finally rid himself of the former leader of the Progressive Conservative Party - a purge of red Tories?  :Tin-Foil-Hat:

 

[Good2Golf]

It's no secret that media organizations DO, indeed, pay for our seats on the Airbus. 
The PMO pays DND for the plane (unlike with the Challengers, as I understand it), and the PMO breaks down the cost and roughly splits it up.
They publish to media agencies before the trip, and then agencies decide whether to buy a seat.
The costs aren't outrageous.  But they're not cheap either.

Thank you.

Regards
G2G

 

[The Bread Guy]

It's no secret that media organizations DO, indeed, pay for our seats on the Airbus. 
The PMO pays DND for the plane (unlike with the Challengers, as I understand it), and the PMO breaks down the cost and roughly splits it up.
They publish to media agencies before the trip, and then agencies decide whether to buy a seat.
The costs aren't outrageous.  But they're not cheap either.

I think folks know generally that media pay for the ride, but thanks for the more detailed explanation of how.

 

[Edward Campbell]

It seems that the media (maybe with some help?  :Tin-Foil-Hat: ) is out to get not only the CDS but the MND as well.

As I have said earlier, there is a far more serious issue before the the Government of Canada. That is the issue of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Foreign Affairs who allegedly had an affair with a foreign journalist. How much have you heard or read about that?

Ezra Levant had a column in the Sun earlier this week about this affair, but since then? Zilch.

Its easier to pick on a target that no matter what is said in its defence, will look like a cover up.

There is a letter to the editor in the Winnipeg Free Press that sums up the attitude shown towards the CDS. The writer scolds the CDS, but makes no mention of the cancelled holiday to attend a repatriaton ceremony in Trenton for our fallen soldiers.

I think there may be a number of factors at play:

1. (I suspect, still, that this is the primary motivation) "Gotcha" journalism which was easy here. Now, some Canadians, including some journalists 'get' the message that the aircraft have to fly a certain number of hours anyway and it makes sense to let e.g. the CDS make better use of his valuable time by using them on appropriate occassions, but most people will, simply, connect a highly recognized name (Gen Natynczyk), a comprehensible sum of money ($92,956.80, $23,231.30, etc) nice places (Saint Maarten Island, in the Antilles, the Grey Cup in Edmonton, etc) and draw their own (incorrect but understandable) conclusions - "Gotcha!"

2. While someone, one of Gen Natynczyk's enemies, of which, I guess, he has a few, may have tipped off the CTV journalists, it is more likely that they, and many others, 'mine' the readily available Challenger costs data and this time they struck it rich; and

3. The MND's use of a Cormorant is just icing on the cake. Most people are going to conclude, despite his explanation about a winch demo, that he used a SAR aircraft for a taxi. It was a gift to opposition politicians from Newfoundland and Labrador.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Sorry, but as a citizen and a taxpayer I have every expectation that the Chief of the Defence and the MND [and people like them] would pretty much always be transported by the air force wherever they go at all times. For certain politicans and media types to suggest these two gentlmen should travel commercial and be stuck in the security line in Pearson while some security guard rifles through their carry on bags, flipping open documents etc  is ridiculous.
 
What we see here with the play of the story is what our country is actually starting to revolt against -  petty, mischievious, little minded people who are driving everything into hysteria mode to the extent that they cannot seem to function any longer at doing something useful, positive and productive.

 

[cupper]

But the MND's trip may not  pass the sniff test. This one could be problematic, although I don't see an issue with it.

"After the demonstration, the rescue chopper took the minister to the Gander airport, where a Challenger jet was waiting to whisk him off to London, Ont., for an announcement.

Then MacKay got back on the Challenger and flew to Halifax, so he could attend the lobster carnival in his home riding, where he successfully defended his title as lobster banding champion.

After the Nova Scotia lobster carnival, MacKay flew to Calgary to spend two days at the Stampede. This time, however, he flew on a commercial airline, at a cost of a little under $1,600 — a far cry from the roughly $25,000 spent on the Challenger the day before."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/09/23/mackay-challenger-flights.html

 

[Strike]

"After the Nova Scotia lobster carnival, MacKay flew to Calgary to spend two days at the Stampede. This time, however, he flew on a commercial airline, at a cost of a little under $1,600 — a far cry from the roughly $25,000 spent on the Challenger the day before."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/09/23/mackay-challenger-flights.html

And once again the reporter fails to provide context.  Did they bother asking why commercial was chosen?  Maybe the crews were otherwise tasked, or were preparing for a task which made it impossible to do the flight to Calgary.  Perhaps all aircraft that were configured for that role were in maintenance.

 

[The Bread Guy]

And the political pile-on on the Minister of National Defence continues - bits here and here from Question Period yesterday:

Hon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.):  Mr. Speaker, whether it is a tony royal gazebo, fake lakes, G20 spending or now fishing trips on search and rescue aircraft, the government's ministers think taxpayers' money is their personal reserve. No one is buying the defence minister's excuse that his lift from a fishing camp was a preplanned training demo. Training demonstrations are day-long exercises.  Could the minister confirm that his office overrode the local base, which initially denied his demand for vital rescue equipment to give him a lift to the airport?

Hon. Peter MacKay (Minister of National Defence, CPC):  Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday, I was on a trip to the beautiful province of Newfoundland and Labrador, a trip I paid for myself. As a result of pressing government business, I was called back from that vacation. I left the vacation early to come back to work.  As the member might know, the government has reduced the use of government aircraft by over 80%. We take the use of government aircraft very seriously. It is used for government business. That is the line we will follow ....

Ms. Christine Moore (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, NDP):  Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence had a search and rescue helicopter pick him up while on a fishing trip. Later, he flew to London, Ontario, on a Challenger jet. And that is not all. He travelled by jet to Halifax to attend a lobster festival.  Is this the minister's way of familiarizing himself with all our different means of air and military transportation, or does he plan on becoming a pilot?

Hon. Peter Van Loan (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, CPC):    Mr. Speaker, taxpayers expect government officials to conduct the nation's business at a reasonable cost. It is something that our government takes very seriously.  I want to be clear. Our use of government aircraft by our ministers is always in compliance with policy. We do follow the policies. And we have reduced the use of government aircraft significantly, as we have said.  When we look at Challenger use by the Liberals who spoke earlier about this issue, we have reduced our use 80% since they abused them as personal limousines constantly. We only use them for government business ....

 

[Edward Campbell]

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, is the problem:

Thanks to some well informed inputs, we, here, in the military family and those who observe it, may have much better knowledge of YFRs and the need for secure communications and so on, but the general public sees: high costs and, indeed, gall. They see a public figure, one whose duties are a complete mystery to them, going to a tropical beach resort and the Grey Cup game in an executive jet - and that's all they see.

In my opinion: CTV 1, Canada 0.

 

[tomahawk6]

Official duties mean the General receives free airfare.Using the CF to fly him on vacation - not so much.

 

[OldSolduer]

Official duties mean the General receives free airfare.Using the CF to fly him on vacation - not so much.

Considering the CDS cancelled going on a charter a/c to go on vacation to attend a repatriation ceremony for four fallen soldiers and a journalist......

 

[aesop081]

Using the CF to fly him on vacation - not so much.

Groos over-simplification of what happened. Have you not read the comments from the air types on this ?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Using the CF to fly him on vacation - not so much.

Let's also remember he was called back from leave to attend the repatriation of four soldiers and a journalist, so it's not quite that simple.

 

[tomahawk6]

I withdraw my comment regarding Natynczyk's vacation with apologies as the Minister of Defense made the aircraft available .

 

[Edward Campbell]

Groos over-simplification of what happened. Have you not read the comments from the air types on this ?

Yes, and

Let's also remember he was called back from leave to attend the repatriation of four soldiers and a journalist, so it's not quite that simple.

Yes, but T6 is, probably, expressing the general public's reaction ... the "message," the one that got through to the public, is "trip to a tropical island for his vacation" and "trip to the Grey Cup," at taxpayers' expense. It doesn't matter if it is a distorted, even false message, it's the one most people got and understood.