Ch-47 Chinook - Shipboard Capabilities

[Navy_Blue]

I can't verify the width of the CH-148 but the length is all most 15 longer.  The wings or nacells or what ever you want to call them on the side of them are much bigger than a Sea King.  Not to mention the ramp on the back.  This thing is going to take up alot more space than you think.  Everyone I've talked to in the MSE world has said what I put forth in my earlier msg's.  HMCS Montreal first and its a big job.  All we can do is wait and see. 

Have a good one...

 

[Inch]

I can't verify the width of the CH-148 but the length is all most 15 longer.   The wings or nacells or what ever you want to call them on the side of them are much bigger than a Sea King.   Not to mention the ramp on the back.   This thing is going to take up alot more space than you think.   Everyone I've talked to in the MSE world has said what I put forth in my earlier msg's.   HMCS Montreal first and its a big job.   All we can do is wait and see.  

Have a good one...

Oh boy, 15ft longer eh? You know that a Sea King is 72ft long when spread right? Sorry, but a Cyclone spread (front edge of the rotor arc to the rear edge of the tail rotor arc) is going to actually be shorter than a Sea King by about 3 1/2 ft. Folded length of both is under 50ft.

The Sea King is a little over 16ft wide when folded, the fuselage of a Cyclone is 12' 9", I don't have the dimensions handy for when it's folded, but I assure you, it isn't much wider than 16ft folded. Hell, not folded it's only 17'3" wide from left sponson to the right edge of the horizontal stabilizer on the tail.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it's been my experience that the Navy doesn't know a whole lot about the Sea King and what it does, so I expect that any knowledge about the Cyclone would be even scarcer. Considering it's the AirDet that puts a helo into the hangar and pulls it out, I'd say there's very few, if any, pers of the ship's company that really know how close the sponsons are to the hangar door.

Cyclone info can be found here: http://www.sikorsky.com/file/popup/0,3038,957,00.pdf
Sea King info is from my brain/Aircraft Operating Instructions.

Whiskey, Cyclone's All Up Weight (AUW) will be 28,000 lbs max, empty weight will be closer to 16,000 lbs or so.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Navy Blue,

I'll put this delicately.  The Cyclone WILL fit on a CPF.  There will be modifications required to the Frigates- it was always in the plan.  I saw the briefing last week, so I am certain of this.  The helo might be slightly off centre while in the hangar- so what? 

I will repeat myself just to be clear- while a Cyclone might be bigger and heavier than a Sea King, IT FOLDS to the same size.  Following me and Inch on this point?

I don't tell you how to fix the ship- don't tell us how to operate helos from the ship.

Cheers

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Navy Blue,

I'll put this delicately.   The Cyclone WILL fit on a CPF.   There will be modifications required to the Frigates- it was always in the plan.   I saw the briefing last week, so I am certain of this.   The helo might be slightly off centre while in the hangar- so what?  

I will repeat myself just to be clear- while a Cyclone might be bigger and heavier than a Sea King, IT FOLDS to the same size.   Following me and Inch on this point?

I don't tell you how to fix the ship- don't tell us how to operate helos from the ship.

Cheers

I was waiting for that last remark

 

[Good2Golf]

"Saucer of milk, Table 2!"  ;D

 

[Infanteer]

If you guys need info on fixing a ship or operating helos from one, PM me - I am a world expert on these matters.

 

[Navy_Blue]

When I saw 68'6" length I though it was just the fusilage length not rotor tip to tail rotor tip.  The guys in the dock yard from the sounds of it are getting ready for a big refit of the flight deck and hanger.  It may not be as big as I though but the refit will be.  Like I said We'll wait and see its not till early to mid 2007.

C yas
 

 

[Baz]

Reminds me of the EH-101 - so many people said it wouldn't fit that the press and politicians started to repeat it as fact...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

When I saw 68'6" length I though it was just the fusilage length not rotor tip to tail rotor tip.  The guys in the dock yard from the sounds of it are getting ready for a big refit of the flight deck and hanger.  It may not be as big as I though but the refit will be.  Like I said We'll wait and see its not till early to mid 2007.

Your ship (along with the rest of the Frigates) will indeed be refit for the new helo.  The work to be done includes changes in the hangar, a new hauldown system (including low-profile trap) and removal of the tailprobe grid and tail straightening system at the back of the deck.  The deck itself requires strengthening.  I also seem to recall a bunch of lighting changes, too.  In any case, sounds like some major work to me.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Reminds me of the EH-101 - so many people said it wouldn't fit that the press and politicians started to repeat it as fact...

Funny don't recall those statements...what I recall was the expense involved not the helo size. CPFs are designed to operate big helicopters.

 

[h3tacco]

Just to elaborate what SKT said I believe the mods to the hangar will include the removal of the tail rotor work stand and a number of vents on the ceiling. I have also heard that a redesign of the LSO compartment is trying to be piggybacked onto the project to address a number of UCRs on heating/cooling, visibility for short statured LSOs, and hopefully an integrated display for the LSO. I guess time will tell.

 

[Baz]

Funny don't recall those statements...what I recall was the expense involved not the helo size. CPFs are designed to operate big helicopters.

I couldn't find a specific quote on the 'net, it was just this long running rumour.  I don't know how many times people in the Navy said it to me.  I'm pretty that Art Hangar, when he was the Defense critic, asked me in the back of a Sea King in 3 Hangar "so I heard that the EH-101 won't fit in a Frigate's hangar."

The definitive statement for me is from the SOR (para 4.1.2.2.2): "The MH shall fit in existing hangar spaces of the FFH, DDH and AOR classes of HMC Ships, with an allowance for conducting maintenance.  Required ship modifications should be kept to a minimum."  Saying it won't is saying that the people who bought it don't know what they are doing...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Baz,
Good to see you onboard, buddy!

It's been a few years...

Cheers,

Dale

 

[TR23]

Is there any kind of rumour or confirmation of which Chinook is going to be chosen?  I've seen Duey(who seems to be a resident Hook expert) mention both the G, and a reworked F.
Are they're any others in the mix?  Could someone run through the basic differences in equipment and capability between the models?  I believe the G is the American SpecOps variant for the 160th correct?

 

[Sf2]

G model isn't in full blown service yet.....

The 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne) currently operates two variants of the Chinook Helicopter.

The MH-47E is a heavy assault helicopter based on the CH-47 airframe, specifically designed and built for the special operations aviation mission. It has a totally integrated avionics subsystem. This avionics package combines a redundant avionics architecture with dual mission processors, remote terminal units, multifunction displays and display generators to improve combat survivability and mission reliability. The "Echo" model also has an aerial refueling (A/R) probe for in-flight refueling; external rescue hoist; and two L714 turbine engines with Full Authority Digital Electronic Control that provides more power during hot/high environmental conditions.

The MH-47D Adverse Weather Cockpit (AWC) Chinook is a twin engine, tandem rotor, heavy assault helicopter that has been specifically modified for long range flights. It is equipped with weather avoidance/search radar; aerial refueling (A/R) probe for in flight refueling; Personnel Locator System (PLS) for finding downed aircrews; Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR); secure voice communications; Fast Rope Insertion Extraction System (FRIES) for insertion of personnel/equipment and extraction of personnel; defensive armament system consisting of two M-134 machine-guns and one M-60D machine-gun; and internal rescue hoist with a 600 lb. capacity.

I know the CDS had his eye on some special ops variants for "those guys".  Not sure how realistic his wish list was, but I'm pretty sure they didn't wanna cheap out on anything.

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm looking for an electronic version of an AHS (American Helicopter Society) "Vertiflite" article on the MH-47G...quite interesting.  It talks about the rebuild of MH-47D's and E's into G's as well as some new -G builds required to bring the end-state -G fleet up to 61 aircraft.

Not sure how the F v. G thing is proceeding, manufacutring costs on both models are being reduced and not sure how that might affect consideration of the two configurations.  G would be nice, but I'd even be happy with an F-model with FLIR, and a refueling boom added and the -GA-714B engines.  The onboard equipment on the G model actually yields a lower payload for the G than the F, but we're still talking 22,000-ish lbs lift for the G vice 24,000+ for the F.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[TR23]

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[TR23]

I imagine your looking for more detail then these articles I found, but I don't have access to the more detailed papers from vertiflite.
www.vtol.org/news/aug03-3.html
www.vtol.org/news/dec03-1.html
www.vtol.org/news/july03-6.html

 

[Good2Golf]

I imagine your looking for more detail then these articles I found, but I don't have access to the more detailed papers from vertiflite.
www.vtol.org/news/aug03-3.html
www.vtol.org/news/dec03-1.html
www.vtol.org/news/july03-6.html

Yup, TR...those are some earlier articles...not sure why the gap between Sep 05 in the archive and the Dec 05 breaking news...i.e. missing Oct and Nov archives, Nov issue had the full article.  Maybe they're still being transferred to the archives.  I thought that AHS members could get the entire Vertiflite mag electronically, but after surfing around the site, it seems it's only hard copies to the members and summaries in electronic format.  I would have to scan my vertiflite and unfortunately, I don't have a scanner over here.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Inch]

I can't verify the width of the CH-148 but the length is all most 15 longer.  The wings or nacells or what ever you want to call them on the side of them are much bigger than a Sea King.  Not to mention the ramp on the back.  This thing is going to take up alot more space than you think.  Everyone I've talked to in the MSE world has said what I put forth in my earlier msg's.  HMCS Montreal first and its a big job.  All we can do is wait and see. 

Have a good one...

A little update, I had a look at the dimensions of the Cyclone on the 12 Wing MHP SO site and here's what I found...... The folded Cyclone will be smaller in length, width, and height than a folded Sea King, that's right, smaller and by almost a foot in every dimension. No mods necessary to the door width.