CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Tail rotor does not fold? Or they just haven't bothered?

 

[dimsum]

Nope, July now.  OTU in Sept I hope.  I was hoping to escape writing the new course... 

Hate to break it to you, but OTU is gonna be a few months past Sept.  "Official" timeline is Nov.  RUMINT is early 2012.  Take it for what it's worth.  Should be a good group of people though.

 

[MarkOttawa]

From 2004:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2004/11/23/helicopters041123.html

...The aircraft will be delivered one per month beginning in November 2008...

From Sikorsky themselves, April 2005:
http://www.sikorsky.com/About+Sikorsky/News/Press+Details?pressvcmid=e762a96c2e289110VgnVCM1000001382000aRCRD

...
Sikorsky Aircraft was awarded MHP contracts in November 2004 to provide 28 Sikorsky H-92 maritime helicopters, designated the CH-148 Cyclone, which will replace Sea King aircraft currently in service with the Canadian Forces, and to provide in-service support for those helicopters. Sikorsky has joined with General Dynamics Canada and L-3 MAS Canada to form The Maritime Helicopter Team, which will develop, certify and field the new Cyclone fleet.

"We are delighted to be working so closely with such a valuable customer," said Sikorsky President Steve Finger. "This is yet another milestone that illustrates the common resolve of the MHP office and the members of our team to ensure this program progresses according to schedule. We are on target for the first flight of Canada's new Cyclone in November 2007, and for deliveries to begin in November 2008.".

Alan Williams, Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel) for Canada's Department of National Defence [that fellow again], said he is "very pleased by the warm welcome MHP staff members are receiving...

Left to right: Mark F. Miller, Sikorsky Vice President Research & Engineering, Stephen N.
Finger, Sikorsky President, Alan Williams, Assistant Deputy Minister, Michel Lapointe,
Program Manager for DND, Col. Wally Istchenko, Deputy Program Manager

Why were those people smiling?

Mark
Ottawa

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Hate to break it to you, but OTU is gonna be a few months past Sept.  "Official" timeline is Nov.  RUMINT is early 2012.  Take it for what it's worth.  Should be a good group of people though.

Unless things have changed, Prima6 is on a slightly different trg program than you are, necessitated by your individual career tracks thus far.

 

[luke_l]

One found using Google images.
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Canada---Air/Sikorsky-CH-148-Cyclone/1417872/L/

... Full size mockup   Looks a little cartoon-ish doesn't it?

Here's a real one

 

[The Bread Guy]

Sikorsky is ‘weeks rather than months’ away from finally delivering the first interim aircraft for the CH-148 Cyclone maritime helicopter programme for the Canadian Forces (CF), according to CEO Jeff Pino. A long-running dispute regarding the purchase of the maritime helicopters was seemingly settled when 28 Cyclones were ordered under a $1.8 billion contract to replace the primary Canadian shipboard helicopter, the CH-124 Sea King. Following delays due to issues surrounding the mission system integration aboard the aircraft, in June 2010 Sikorsky announced that as a provisional measure the CF would receive six interim CH-148 Cyclones in November. However, delivery of these aircraft was also delayed due to undisclosed issues Sikorsky claimed was beyond its control. Speaking to reporters at a ‘state of Sikorsky’ presentation at Heli-Expo in Orlando, Pino said delivery of interim aircraft was now ‘imminent’ and highlighted progress on the programme that included 750 flight hours completed, ongoing sea trials in Canada and the finalising of the aircraft’s certification ….

More here.

 

[MarkOttawa]

More from Sikorsky:

Canada Cyclones to Arrive This Month?
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a80034458-fb1b-453e-8c52-6117af5b38d8

Sikorsky could deliver the first of Canada's much-delayed CH-148 Cyclone maritime helicopters this month, said president Jeff Pino yesterday at the Heli-Expo show in Orlando. The initial helicopters will not be fully compliant with the Canadian requirement, but will allow training to begin.

The work still to be done to deliver fully mission-capable aircraft, set for 2012, is "mostly software and some additional power - we're waiting on the engine [GE's CT7-8A6]," says Pino. The additional power will "run through a bigger transmission," but he will not be drawn out on whether it will have the 30-min run-dry capability that the current main gearbox -- from the commercial S-92 on which the CH-148 is based -- does not.

After a Cougar Helicopters S-92 crashed off Newfoundland in 2009, killing 17 people, when the gearbox failed just 11min after a total loss of oil, there were very public demands in Canada for the CH-148 to have the same 30-min run-dry capability as other military and some commercial helicopters.

Pino says Sikorsky is still in talks with the Canadian government (aka "the Crown") on the new gearbox. "Another six months with the Crown and we will have a  final configuration for the transmission," he says. Pino also will not comment on the penalties Sikorsky will pay for the Cyclone delays, but he does acknowledge the company "will take a write-off on every delivery" over the 28 helicopters.

But -- and it is a big but -- Sikorsky's fixed-price contract includes 20 years of tip-to-tail in-service support over which the company can recover its losses, and despite the penalties Pino still describes the contract to replace Canada's long-serving CH-124 Sea Kings as "lucrative" [emphasis added]...

Mark
Ottawa

 

[RedFive]

despite the penalties Pino still describes the contract to replace Canada's long-serving CH-124 Sea Kings as "lucrative" [emphasis added]...

I wonder how much they're counting on additional sales of the aircraft for profit. Isn't Germany interested in these to replace their own Sea King and Sea Lynx helicopters?

 

[Kirkhill]

I believe that Sikorski is intending to fly the "Cyclone" against the "Cormorant" for the re-opened Presidential helicopter project.

 

[h3tacco]

The German Navy and the VXX (US presidential) bids are I think Sikorsky's immediate goals. However, if you consider they are still selling H-60s ~30 years after its introduction Sikorsky is also probably considering the long term run of the H-92.  It will be a lot easier to sell the aircraft when the development and initial fielding is complete and the platform is a bit more of a known quantity.

 

[MarkOttawa]

It will be a lot easier to sell the aircraft when the development and initial fielding is complete and the platform is a bit more of a known quantity.

Indeed.  And done solely at Canada's expense and risk.  Nice bit of gaming by Sikorsky, having backed us into a corner through false promises, with no way out.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Haletown]

Indeed.  And done solely at Canada's expense and risk.  Nice bit of gaming by Sikorsky, having backed us into a corner through false promises, with no way out.

Mark
Ottawa

So I guess this means you confess that competitive bidding is no guarantee  that you get a better product at a better price?

Because it worked so well here  8)

 

[PuckChaser]

So I guess this means you confess that competitive bidding is no guarantee  that you get a better product at a better price?

Because it worked so well here  8)

Great point.

 

[MarkOttawa]

No.  When the aircraft bid is a paper one, or one still undergoing seemingly endless testing and with no discernible price point.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[PuckChaser]

When the aircraft bid is a paper one, or one still undergoing seemingly endless testing and with no discernible price point.

So basically the CH-148 then? The S-92 airframe has been around since 2004, and they still can't figure out the proper engines to make a military model.

 

[h3tacco]

The S-92 and CH148 are significantly different aircraft.

 

[h3tacco]

No.  When the aircraft bid is a paper one, or one still undergoing seemingly endless testing and with no discernible price point.

Mark
Ottawa

"Seemingly endless testing" is not accurate. Compare the first flight of the CH148 to other similar aircraft. (Nov 2008)

The first flight of the EH-101 was 1987 and it was not operational till the early 2000s. The first flight of the NH-90 was in 1995 and no NFH-90 (naval variant) are in operational service as of today.

You also do not have to look to far into other aerospace programs  to draw comparisons. 777, A400M, RH-70 (canceled), VH-71 (canceled), V-22, F-35.

 

[prima6]

"Seemingly endless testing" is not accurate. Compare the first flight of the CH148 to other similar aircraft. (Nov 2008)

The first flight of the EH-101 was 1987 and it was not operational till the early 2000s. The first flight of the NH-90 was in 1995 and no NFH-90 (naval variant) are in operational service as of today.

You also do not have to look to far into other aerospace programs  to draw comparisons. 777, A400M, RH-70 (canceled), VH-71 (canceled), V-22, F-35.

Yeah, but also consider that other the aircraft you've described are completely from scratch new airframes, the CH-148 isn't.

I talked with a TACCO who was just down in Florida checking out 806.  Apparently he didn't find the back end layout too impressive.  Not that it will matter much for a while, the ETA for a working back end is "sometime after we get the helicopters".

 

[h3tacco]

Yeah, but also consider that other the aircraft you've described are completely from scratch new airframes, the CH-148 isn't.

I talked with a TACCO who was just down in Florida checking out 806.  Apparently he didn't find the back end layout too impressive.  Not that it will matter much for a while, the ETA for a working back end is "sometime after we get the helicopters".

Ok.

 

[jacob_ns]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/05/26/ns-mackay-defence-jobs.html

Years of delays
MacKay announced Thursday the Canadian military is expected to formally receive its first Cyclone maritime helicopter later this summer after years of delays.

The federal government originally ordered 28 Cyclones in 2004 with a delivery date of November 2008, but the procurement has been marred by postponements and cost overruns. The current price tag for the choppers is $6.2 billion.

The interim Cyclone that MacKay viewed Thursday arrived at CFB Shearwater in Halifax two weeks ago to help train Canadian Forces air crew and technicians.

Sikorsky, the manufacturer of the Cyclone, is expected to formally deliver the first CH-148 Cyclone to the military this summer pending training requirements and an airworthiness certificate, said MacKay.