CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[Eye In The Sky]

In the meantime, aren't a lot of the Sea Kings being used on Anti-Pirate Patrol with a C6/C9 door gunner instead of all that ASW stuff anyway?

No.  The back-end guys and gals have their sensor's and the C6.  Its not a 'one or the other' deal, they fly with both.  (if I read your question right)

It will likely be alittle longer that they are ready to fly a Cyclone off the CPFs anyways.  Lots of trg for tech's and aircrew once the Cyclone even starts to show up on the Wing and HelAirDets.  I am not sure you'll see them needing sand washed off them vice sea salt, but stranger things have happened...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If the Cyclone became a "stunning success" at moving troops, would they make a viable replacement for the Griffions? Or would it be to much helicopter for the task?

 

[Loachman]

And then buy yet another helicopter to replace the Sea Kings?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I meant by buying additional airframes, since everytime I hear people talk about buying stuff, the lament is about commonality of airframe and minimizing the different types. Do you think the Cyclone in the non-naval role is a contender for the roles played currently by the Griffion?

 

[Haletown]

The Cyclone is quite a bit bigger than a Blackhawk and  Sikorsky has a General Purpose/Army version of the Cyclone called the H-92.


Don't know what they want to do in Ottawa at the Brick Brain but I'd bet the Commander of our Air Wing in Afghanistan would love to have a bunch of FSOD painted Cyclone/H-92 on the ramp in Kandahar. 

They could probably dump those rented Mil 17's (?)

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well, the incoming TFA Wing Commander just finished up as Wing Commander for 12 Wing.  I am sure he knows full-on all the issues within the MH community and all that jazz and is probably up to speed on the issues around platforms in and needed for TFA.  So, although I don't know Col *P* the way SKT and others on here might, I am not sure I'd put money on him wanting to see Cyclone's in the sandbox.  But, you'd have to ask him that yourself. 

 

[Loachman]

I meant by buying additional airframes,

I do not see buying more as an option - from where would the money come?

the lament is about commonality of airframe and minimizing the different types.

We did that too much already, and ended up losing Kiowa and Chinook in favour of an all-Griffon fleet and violating our doctrine of that time. We had/have different airframes for different purposes.

Do you think the Cyclone in the non-naval role is a contender for the roles played currently by the Griffion?

For pure lift? Possibly. I already view the Griffon as too big though, especially for the escort role or any other active armed role.

 

[Loachman]

They could probably dump those rented Mil 17's (?)

And the extra CH148s would be flown and maintained by...?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I agree they are to big, even on civy street the Bell 214 is not used as much as the 206,207 and Astar, to big for most stuff and not big enough for the rest.

 

[DocBacon]

I can only assume you mean the Bell 412, Colin, as the 214 is either a heavy-lift machine of the same size as the 212/412 but with bigger blades and a single big stove (214B), or it's a large-cabin heavy twin (214). 

If you were referring to the 412, then you're right, there are many more 206's and A-Stars (a 207 is a small fixed wing a/c) than 412's.  However, a 206 is a light (typically four-place) and an A-Star is an intermediate (six-place), while a 412 is a 15-place twin in the medium category.  A 206 can be has for under $500,000, an A-Star for a couple million, and a 412 starts at $10,000,000, so that's why you'll not see too many 412's on civvie street.  You will see lots of 205's and 212's, which have the same size cabin as the 412, because they lift better, are cheaper to operate, and cost much less.

As far as Bell mediums being too big or too small, they are like any other machine: for certain jobs they are just right.  For instance, as a SAR machine (provided capacity for flight into known icing isn't required) they're an excellent platform.

 

[Haletown]

And the extra CH148s would be flown and maintained by...?

Probably the same CAF folks who would fly and maintain them if they were flying off a Navy ship.

Last I checked, the members of the CAF were very good at learning how to fly and maintain aircraft.  Don't see any reason this situation would  change because of  92's coming into service.

 

[aesop081]

Probably the same CAF folks who would fly and maintain them if they were flying off a Navy ship.

Last I checked, the members of the CAF were very good at learning how to fly and maintain aircraft.  Don't see any reason this situation would  change because of  92's coming into service.

Methinks you missed the point.

He said "extra" CH-148s. That means there's thos flying off Navy ships and then the extra ones in the Desert. We barely have enough people to fly and fix the shipborne ones.....where are we going to get the extra folks ?

Knit them ?

 

[Haletown]

Methinks you missed the point.

He said "extra" CH-148s. That means there's thos flying off Navy ships and then the extra ones in the Desert. We barely have enough people to fly and fix the shipborne ones.....where are we going to get the extra folks ?

Knit them ?

Part of any purchase is the ILS process . . .  which includes training and all maintenance specialties.  We'll get the "extras" the same way we got the 'originals".

At the rate the ASW electronics package is being developed, the "originals" will be ready but have nothing to do if we didn't send them to Afghanistan or find some other flying task for them.  The 'extras" might be the ones chasing subs for a living, somewhere down the road.

 

[aesop081]

Part of any purchase is the ILS process . . .  which includes training and all maintenance specialties.  We'll get the "extras" the same way we got the 'originals".

Thank yuo for that shocking revelation but you havent answered my question. Where are all these extra technicians come from ?

At the rate the ASW electronics package is being developed, the "originals" will be ready but have nothing to do

Its not because there 's no ASW going on that the Navy has nothing for the MH community to do. Think about it.

 

[Loachman]

Here's the point:

Right now, 1 Wing has,effectively, stood up a whole new unit overseas and added a whole new fleet with no increase in manning. There are only two Tac Hel Squadrons to rotate into and out of theatre - manning both fleets - with some augmentation from two Reserve-Heavy Squadrons, and possibly occasional augmentation from the OTU and 427 Squadron.

The MH community will soon be introducing a whole new fleet while doing their best to continue to operate during the conversion process. Fleet conversions are always highly disruptive and pull people out of the daily operation. There will be barely enough new machines to conduct the missions for which they were bought in the first place, and barely enough people to fly and fix them.

Both communities are short of people, and even shorter of experienced people.

Any CH148s applied to non-MH tasks would have to come from a new purchase. Unless we reduce the CH146 fleet, possibly to the point where it cannot be sustained, crews and maintainers would have to be created or poached from other already-hurting communities.

Tac Hel and MH jobs are very different. They are more than driving or fixing a particular machine.

Again, CH148 is too big and expensive for the escort/recce/surveillance role.

We already have CH147 for lift in theatre.

Would we have a role for a Tac Hel CH148 version in future conflicts or other ops? I personally do not think so.

Presuming that we do eventually get CH147F, then I'd much rather see our CH146s upgraded to or swapped for UH1Ys or replaced with UH60 for the utility role and something else purchased for the armed/recce role.

 

[Infanteer]

Would we have a role for a Tac Hel CH148 version in future conflicts or other ops? I personally do not think so.

I know this is WAY of to the future and is just me thinking out loud - but if that amphibious project (which seems to be a Hillier-idea that'll die on the table) was ever followed through, do you see them as being troop transport in an amphibious setting.  This way, a naval task force with troops has fewer airframes while deployed.

 

[Loachman]

Possibly, although this would be a specialized niche role for which we'd most likely be better off using Chinook, presuming that the planned purchase does indeed happen.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

There will be barely enough new machines to conduct the missions for which they were bought in the first place, and barely enough people to fly and fix them.

If a whacking big JSS and new destroyers aren't bought PDQ, their original missions won't be around that much.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Torch post:

How the Aussies may approach buying new naval helicopters (hint: not Sikorsky MH-92s)
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/05/how-aussies-may-approach-buying-new.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

can we give the Cyclone a chance it the CF before we start condemning it..... :